12:34:02 <mchua> #startmeeting
12:34:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jun 18 12:34:02 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:34:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
12:34:31 <ganderson> mchua: ended that meeting a little late...?
12:34:52 <ganderson> morning Andrea_H!
12:35:12 * ganderson sips his chocolate-flavored coffee.. :9
12:35:30 * mchua sips her... weird... broccoli and garlic... grass... shake thing that lmacken said was good.
12:35:34 <mchua> (it is)
12:35:50 <mchua> #topic What we're doing today
12:35:58 <mchua> #info Today is teaching day!
12:36:14 <mchua> #info Part 1: Getting involved & plugging in - how to continue *your* own growth in FOSS - Events
12:36:36 <Andrea_H> ganderson: hello!
12:36:39 <mchua> #info Part 2: Teaching Open Source - curriculum - community - schedule - grading
12:36:45 <mchua> #info Part 3: Plans for your courses
12:37:07 <mchua> #info We're going to start by looking at the list of things we said we wanted to cover this week on Monday, to make sure we hit them all.
12:37:11 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_RIT#Things_we_want_to_accomplish_this_week
12:38:22 <ganderson> also mchua, ctyler: Dave_S said he can't make it today and was wondering if he could skype in, or if we should just transcribe everything (really well ;))
12:39:09 <mchua> #link http://typewith.me/posse-rit
12:39:28 <ctyler> ganderson: the transcribe part is probably more reliable :-)
12:39:38 <ganderson> mhmm :P
12:40:15 <mchua> We're crossing out stuff we think we've gotten to, feel free to jump in and do the same
12:41:06 <ganderson> mel's asking steve about the game development bullet
12:41:14 <ganderson> we decided we'll cross it out
12:42:03 <mchua> We'll keep this list up and in the back of our mind as we go alon
12:42:04 <mchua> er, along
12:42:18 <mchua> but we'll proceed with the day now.
12:43:08 <mchua> #topic Getting involved as a professor
12:43:28 <mchua> Chris believes that profs will have a better time getting their students involved if they themselves are involved with the community.
12:43:48 <mchua> Participation in a few FOSS events in person can be very beneficial in this regard - they're huge accelerators for involvement.
12:43:59 <mchua> Getting to know the faces behind the names and so forth.
12:44:04 <mchua> Some events we should mention:
12:44:28 <mchua> In Fedora, we get together 4x/year, in different parts of the world - so North America gets it once per year
12:44:35 <mchua> #info Chris believes that profs will have a better time getting their students involved if they themselves are involved with the community.
12:44:38 <mchua> #info Participation in a few FOSS events in person can be very beneficial in this regard - they're huge accelerators for involvement.
12:44:38 <ganderson> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon
12:44:42 <JonathanD> morning.
12:44:51 <mchua> #info In Fedora, we get together 4x/year, in different parts of the world - so North America gets it once per year, and this is called FUDCon (Fedora Users and Developers Conference)
12:44:56 <mchua> hullo JonathanD!
12:45:53 <mchua> #info The event this Saturday, FOSSCon, is in its first run this year, and is a local event, but another good opportunity to meet folks
12:46:12 <mchua> #info we also invite folks to cross the pond this fall for FSOSS
12:46:15 <mchua> #link http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2010/
12:46:22 <mchua> JonathanD: (feel free to plug FOSSCon more if you like)
12:47:15 <JonathanD> speaking of crossing the pond, fosscons farthest flung speaker arrived in NY last night.
12:47:19 <JonathanD> All the way from Denmark.
12:47:26 <mchua> What other opportunities - and challenges - can you see in terms of getting involved in FOSS?
12:47:46 <mchua> hullo mprppr, willhoft! join the transcription!
12:47:50 <ritsteve> http://gryphonscratches.blogspot.com/2010/06/posse-fossrit-list.html
12:47:52 <JonathanD> hello willhoft
12:48:03 <JonathanD> ritsteve: still need a fooding place :)
12:48:06 <mchua> #link http://gryphonscratches.blogspot.com/2010/06/posse-fossrit-list.html
12:48:26 <mchua> #info Steve is going through the link above discussing what's happened at FOSS@RIT so far.
12:51:34 <ganderson> #info Steve is discussing how FOSS work from the classroom has branched into independent studies and 501c3 co-ops
12:52:46 <gary_at_RIT> morning all
12:52:49 <ganderson> morning gary_at_RIT
12:53:22 <mchua> #info The Sugar class started as a seminar; students continued their work as co-ops (unpaid) if they wanted to, and were around to mentor students when the next round of the seminar was taught.
12:53:29 <ganderson> gary_at_RIT: what you've missed so far --> http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource/2010-06-18/teachingopensource.2010-06-18-12.34.log.txt
12:53:50 <mchua> #info Eventually, some of those projects got picked up as sponsored research projects; this is a way of getting FOSS work funded through existing mechanisms for undergrad research on campus.
12:55:59 <ctyler> #link http://hfoss.org
12:56:08 <mchua> #info The Sugar class at RIT is designed as an HFOSS course - humanitarian FOSS, FOSS projects that are code that benefit humanity (disaster management, etc) group
12:56:11 <mchua> #chair ctyler
12:56:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: ctyler mchua
12:56:22 <mchua> #link http://hfoss.org
12:56:34 <ctyler> #link http://code.google.com/soc/
12:56:54 <mchua> #info Summer of Code - students can get paid by Google to work on an open source project for the summer.
12:57:48 <mchua> #info There are other similar programs - not just for code work, not just run by Google
12:57:52 <mchua> quaid: ^^
12:58:01 <mchua> #info For instance, Fedora Summer Coding
12:58:05 <mchua> #link http://iquaid.org/2010/06/07/summer-rolling-in-fedora-summer-coding/
12:59:00 <Dave_S> wow that's very very cool.
13:00:40 <mchua> Dave_S: quaid wants to expand it to beyond code for next year - writing, design, etc - so you should talk with him about that if you're interested in maybe getting some students invlved
13:00:44 <mchua> involved.
13:01:05 <mchua> Dave_S: also, since the summer in google summer of code only works for schools in north america and those with similar schedules, he wants to run the program year-round
13:01:15 <mchua> so people with different schedules can participate
13:02:22 <mchua> #info One of the things HFOSS is working on is a certificate program for students who do good portfolio work in an HFOSS project... this is a work in progress (very, very draft-ish) - help is welcome, join the HFOSS list and say hello.
13:02:37 <mchua> (gregdek is/was involved with that, I should pick up on it... note to self.)
13:03:03 <mchua> #info FOSS@RIT folks have gone off to present at Barcamps, etc
13:04:43 * mchua notes the (old, crufty) http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Health group/page for ritsteve when he gets back to his keyboard
13:07:08 <mchua> The hard part about HFOSS certification (getting a program in place) is that it needs buy-in from folks to agree the cert is relevant.
13:07:35 <mchua> And the details of how to certify, who reviews, etc... we've known for a long time what we want it to look like on paper, but the cert itself doesn't yet exist.
13:07:43 <mchua> hellis (Heidi Ellis) is one TOS denizen working on that.
13:07:52 <mchua> among others - we have a bunch of HFOSS folks in TOS.
13:07:54 <Sparks> mchua: Good morning
13:08:03 <mchua> Hullo, Sparks!
13:08:12 <mchua> Sparks: Did you get to meet Dave_S the other day?
13:08:14 <mchua> Andrea_H: ^
13:08:17 <Sparks> mchua: I did not
13:09:07 <mchua> Sparks: Dave_S and his classes may be more up the Docs alley - he teaches writing, has a tech writing background himself.
13:09:21 <mchua> Sparks: (Dave's also remote today, so he may take a moment to look up at his screen.)
13:09:45 <Dave_S> HI Sparks
13:09:50 <Sparks> Dave_S: Mornin'
13:10:44 <mchua> #topic Steps to getting involved in FOSS
13:10:54 <mchua> #info Find out what the community's about, and how they work - lurk!
13:11:06 <Dave_S> Sparks: are you faculty, community. student?
13:11:19 <mchua> #info Then *do* something. FOSS is a do-ocracy - those who do, decide.
13:11:24 <Sparks> Dave_S: community.  I represent the Fedora Docs Project
13:11:49 * Sparks thinks community is both teaching and learning...  :)
13:12:05 <Sparks> Dave_S: I hear you are looking for a FLOSS opportunity for tech writing.
13:13:18 <mchua> #topic Types of events
13:13:21 <mchua> #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BarCamp
13:13:51 <mchua> #info Rochester and RIT have had BarCamps before - come check 'em out!
13:14:00 <mchua> lmacken is wearing a barcamp shirt today, and just made a plug for barcamps.
13:14:38 <Dave_S> cool.  I'm not sure.  My schedule is fairly nuts during the year, I teach and have 2 young kids, but I definitely wnt to have more involvment   Just not sure about what level yet.
13:15:57 <ganderson> mchua: don't full screen..it's testy.. :P
13:16:36 <mchua> #link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJZQJRpC2_0
13:16:43 <mchua> #info That's a FUDCon video - we're watching it now.
13:17:06 <mchua> #info Mel notes that barcamps, fudcons, these sorts of little conferences, etc - are great first presentation opportunities for students.
13:17:21 <ctyler> mchua: volume++
13:17:33 <ganderson> mchua: volume+++
13:19:14 <ritsteve> FOSS@RIT projects have presented  at barcamps and unconferences and participated in hackfests in Rochester, New York City and Boston are hoping to head to one in Albany
13:19:46 <ganderson> mmmm...gnome-shell
13:19:48 <mchua> ritsteve: feel free to #link and #info stuff yourself
13:19:50 <mchua> #chair ritsteve
13:19:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: ctyler mchua ritsteve
13:20:08 <mchua> #chair ganderson Sparks Andrea_H Dave_S willhoft gary_at_RIT skuhaneck
13:20:08 <zodbot> Current chairs: Andrea_H Dave_S Sparks ctyler ganderson gary_at_RIT mchua ritsteve skuhaneck willhoft
13:20:14 <mchua> (lemme know if I am missing you!)
13:20:35 <ritsteve> #info FOSS@RIT projects have presented  at barcamps and unconferences and participated in hackfests in Rochester, New York City and Boston are hoping to head to one in Albany
13:21:28 <mchua> #info Hackfests - getting people together to sprint on Making A Thing!
13:21:34 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD
13:21:39 <Dave_S> mchua: what is #link and #info?
13:22:08 <ganderson> #info Another event like FAD with respect to coding is the Ubuntu Papercuts project https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaperCut
13:22:22 <ganderson> Dave_S: it tells zodbot to store that informaiton into meeting minutes
13:22:45 <Dave_S> eeeehhooo.  T
13:22:47 <Dave_S> Y
13:23:47 <ganderson> #info also like FUDCon, there is Ubuntu Developer Summit (for us Ubuntu folk ;)) http://summit.ubuntu.com/
13:23:53 <Dave_S> The vid is nice.  Very energizing.  I can see using it as part of an introduction a unit to the community.
13:23:59 <Dave_S> on the community.
13:24:00 <ritsteve> #info foss@rit possibly hosting hackathon here to work on civx stuff with nyscio end of july, early august
13:24:01 <mchua> ganderson: #link!
13:24:09 <ganderson> mchua: but I like #info :<
13:24:11 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_FAD_2010#Photos
13:24:17 <mchua> ganderson: but #link actually puts it as a hyperlink in the minutes.
13:24:22 * mchua is laaaazy
13:24:29 * ganderson is a rebel >:[
13:24:31 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Events_FAD_2010
13:24:33 <mchua> ganderson: fair enough :)
13:27:12 <Dave_S> mchua: is the link to the marketing meeting photos pursuant to the discussion or just an example of a link?
13:27:44 <mchua> Dave_S: It's an example of a FAD.
13:27:57 <mchua> And an illustration that FADs and hackathons can *very* much be nontechnical, and are actually awesome
13:28:14 <mchua> in terms of new terrain we're exploring, actually, they're even more awesome.
13:28:15 <Dave_S> mchua: can you define FAD here?
13:28:36 <mchua> we already know how to write code tosw (the open source way), but what does it mean to, say, do UI design tosw, or marketing tosw... these things that are usually centralized, controlled?
13:28:47 <mchua> Dave_S: Fedora Activity Day - it's what Fedora calls its hackathons (other projects call them other things)
13:28:52 <Dave_S> ahhhh, gotcha
13:29:05 <mchua> Dave_S: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD - basically, get people together to work on making A Thing for a few days
13:29:33 <Dave_S> so you use these to open source not technical tasks/topics as well.
13:29:46 <Dave_S> That's sweet.
13:30:40 <Dave_S> Have you ever tried to FAD something and found a lack of interest?  i.e. been disappointed in the interest level?  Not gotten good input/discussion?
13:30:57 <Dave_S> I'm wondering if you've found limits to using FAD yet?
13:31:12 <mchua> Dave_S: There have been a bunch of FAD ideas (lots of them, really - like most proposals) that have never actually become FADs because the momentum to hold 'em didn't come together.
13:31:32 <mchua> Dave_S: generally speaking, before we actually fly folks in, etc. we have a good solid gameplan on who is coming and what will be done, etc
13:31:42 <mchua> since folks often fly in from far away, take time off work, etc to be there
13:31:52 <mchua> so we have details in place (as a FAD group) before we say "ok, go!"
13:31:59 <Dave_S> Gotcha, so FAD topics live or die in the planning stage?
13:32:04 <mchua> #topic Teaching-specific topics
13:32:08 <Dave_S> depending on respoinse.
13:32:09 <mchua> #info What to do when someone comes in and closes your students' ticket for them?
13:32:13 <mchua> #info What to do when your student can't move forward because someone else is blocking their work?
13:32:14 <ganderson> mchua: I was about to do that.. :P
13:32:26 <mchua> ganderson: please do!
13:32:37 <ganderson> I'm actually gonna toss chris' list onto the wiki I think
13:32:46 <Dave_S> What to do when your student can't move forward because someone else is blocking their work?  I want to see responses to this.
13:32:58 <Dave_S> I ran into this issue this winter.
13:33:18 <mchua> #info If your student submits work but a maintainer won't push it, or someone's unresponsive, or people disagree, etc - and they just can't go any further, what do they do?
13:33:22 <mchua> Dave_S: Ooh? How so?
13:33:32 <mchua> Dave_S: I'll make sure Chris comes back to it, and that the folks in the classroom hear your story.
13:34:35 <mchua> #info Profs need to be coaches - teach their students how to not get stuck.
13:34:41 <Dave_S> In one of our workgroups we had a student who had major skills but decided he didn't like to share and work with his group.  So despite warnings he did his code, upon which the other students were dependent, at the last possible moment.
13:35:06 <Dave_S> He just refused to make it a priority, and his team got largely hosed because of it.
13:35:54 <Dave_S> We were too far into the semester when he showed this behavior to let the others jump ship.  They had already done some initial work together and initially gelled the project outline.
13:37:23 <Dave_S> The difficult student's code was excellent.  I gave him very poor marks for the communication end, which hurt his grade, but his immobility also hurt his partners' work.
13:37:36 <Dave_S> I'm thinking of a work around now as I write this.
13:37:38 <mchua> ganderson: (can you transcribe that plz?)
13:37:45 * mchua trying to get Dave_S's question/story in
13:37:54 <Dave_S> describe what specifically?
13:38:15 <mchua> Dave_S: oh, just calling out what you wrote in-channel, and getting ready to transcribe those comments.
13:38:24 <mchua> Dave_S: wait, is the situation still active?
13:38:54 <ganderson> mchua: I'm having a problem figuring out how to word it..lol
13:39:12 <Dave_S> Oh no.  I graded them, and all went home happy, or at least not upset enough to complain.  : )
13:39:13 <mchua> GenJamGuy: can you help summarize?
13:39:23 <mchua> Dave_S: Ah, gotcha. :) How did it affect the grades of his team?
13:39:39 <ganderson> #info at RIT, when we have a project-based course, we can have issues where things "fall apart".  The best way to grade this process is to grade based on the effort put forth into the classroom, not necessarily the end result.
13:40:27 <mchua> #info It's very strange to, as a student, come into a class and have a prof tell you "finishing the project is not the goal." (What is, then?)
13:40:57 <mchua> #info A lot of FOSS is about starting something well *and* leaving something well.
13:41:15 <ganderson> #info One of the more important aspects of grading this type of course is how well-documented it is, and how immersed the individual students got into the OSS community
13:41:31 <Dave_S> The team might have received A's but got B's, basically for not being sufficiently pro-active.  The instigator of the issue also got a B, I didn't feel that I could go lower given the fact that he did meet his deliverable list by the end of the semester.  I will change the structure next time to make milestones grades more time depedent.
13:42:07 <mchua> hullo kis! the RIT profs are talking about their plans for teaching, and they are doing HFOSS here and Sugar dev too.
13:42:28 <Dave_S> The instigator did not get a good rating for his communications at any level.
13:42:35 <Dave_S> Obviously.  : )
13:42:39 <mchua> #info Either students have to get involved in someone else's project, or build community around their project.
13:43:00 <kis> mchua: Good morning! That sounds interesting. I just published a blog post about our language learning plans and also tagged it for the sugar planet. I thought maybe we can get some more feedback from interested people there.
13:43:06 <ganderson> #info The better a student documents their project-based work in a course can allow the OSS community to easily pick up the project, even if the student can't finish it
13:43:13 <mchua> Dave_S: Heh. :) The hard part for those students is that they're usually good enough that that strategy works for the rest of the time, and will work for a long time in their early career... but then they'll hit the limitations of what *they* can do, and be stuck.
13:43:50 <mchua> kis: awesome! Andrea_H, Dave_S, willhoft, ritsteve, ganderson, skuhaneck are all at POSSE - everyone but willhoft is RIT, willhoft is also pretty local iirc, so you may want to ask 'em questions, send them a link, etc
13:44:06 <Dave_S> I would hope he finds that limit soon.  : )  he could have greatly benefitted from the course, but rejected some of the fundamental principles behind the community.
13:44:28 <mchua> #info Chris: another question - where do you position such a course in your program? When are students ready for such a course, and where is your curriculum flexible enough to allow it?
13:44:34 <Dave_S> Have to go AFK for about 15-20 mins brb
13:44:40 * mchua nods, we'll keep transcribing
13:44:53 <Dave_S> name: Dave_SAFK
13:45:00 <mchua> Dave_S: /nick Dave_S_afk
13:45:05 <mchua> close :)
13:45:07 <Dave_S> : )
13:45:11 <Dave_S> tY
13:45:39 <mchua> #info Seneca has a very locked-down core curriculum; we have a FOSS participation high-level elective.
13:46:28 <mchua> #info However, fardad has recently added TOS principles to his intro C++ class - he doesn't get them into a FOSS community, but makes them use the tools while they learn the material (turn homework in with version control, wiki for course website, etc) as a "pre-TOS class"
13:46:46 <ganderson> GenJamGuy: the stuff Chris is talking about right now sounds pretty similar/applicable to the IGM coursework :o
13:46:51 <mchua> ganderson: what's that?
13:47:01 <mchua> "interactive games and media" I'm guessing
13:47:06 <mchua> but I don't know what that program is like here
13:47:07 <ganderson> mchua: yeppers
13:47:09 <mchua> or how it's taught, etc
13:47:33 <ritsteve> mchua:  Depends on which degree in the dept :-)
13:47:34 <ganderson> mchua: iirc, students pitch a game idea once term, then vote on the best 2 concepts, group up, and develop it the next term
13:47:40 <ganderson> once == once
13:47:44 <ganderson> once == one *****
13:47:58 <mchua> heh.
13:47:59 <ritsteve> ganderson:  Not quite, but clsoe
13:48:10 * mchua nods - so... it... 2 terms, same students for both terms?
13:48:13 <ganderson> ritsteve: ah kay..that's my fleeting understanding from what students tell me, haha
13:48:28 <ganderson> ritsteve: care to elaborate for mchua? :o
13:49:21 <mchua> #info RIT tends to start having group projects 3rd quarter freshman year (early, compared to most)
13:49:55 <ritsteve> #info, depends which program as well.
13:50:15 <mchua> oh, are there programs that start much later? what's the range/stdev?
13:50:52 <ritsteve> we're a big college and a big university.  Al's talking about what happens in the freshman year of the game degree
13:50:59 * mchua nods
13:50:59 <ganderson> mchua: plain IT tends to do the group projects VERY often while other degrees in the schools (computer science, for example) may have more partner-based assignments
13:51:16 <ganderson> mchua: but other colleges outside of the golisano college, not sure...they may not have as many (if any) group projects
13:51:21 <mchua> ganderson: and how many of the group projects actually live/get used outside the school, outside the group, live on past the term?
13:51:23 <kis> ritsteve: Are these group projects part of different classes or in addition to classes or a special class everyone has to take?
13:51:35 <ganderson> mchua: for example, the illustration majors in one of the other colleges NEVER has group-based coursework
13:51:45 <mchua> Andrea_H: how does that compare to new media / journalism stuff?
13:52:36 <ganderson> mchua: personally, when I hit the end of my sophomore year and beyond, EVERY class had at least one group project and we usually had to meet outside of class to work on it
13:52:41 <mchua> kis: oh! Andrea_H and Dave_S_afk teach new media / writing / journalism, btw, so that's another angle that I wonder if your students would be keen on, CS intersecting with other disciplines... bringing (female?) non-majors into FOSS as a way of exposing them to tech?
13:53:13 * mchua knows a couple folks who started as non-tech majors but double-majored after doing projects with engineering students, or went on to a STEM masters degree, etc.
13:53:54 <kis> mchua: yes, we actually tend to have a lot of interdepartmental or double majors.
13:54:09 <ganderson> mchua: STEM?
13:54:10 <mchua> kis: nice! do they start out that way, or start in one and add the other halfway through?
13:54:14 <mchua> ganderson: Science Tech Engineering Math
13:54:18 <ganderson> ah
13:54:20 <Andrea_H> mchua:  I think it is very different.  I'm  think foss relates to my classes in several ways: 1) writing about a project as an activity and 2) using open source software to produce news
13:54:37 <kis> mchua: Among the 7 seniors this year, 4 were interdepartmental with digital arts.
13:55:05 <kis> mchua: They go both ways: some add CS; some start with CS and then add something else.
13:56:20 <mchua> Dave_S_afk: I just relayed your story, asked your question
13:56:49 <mchua> #info What to do when your student blocks others? If you're really in a FOSS context, community people will start to complain, give feedback.
13:58:37 <mchua> ritsteve has asked Andrea_H what she does in this context, since journalism students go out to interact with lots of people
14:00:48 <mchua> #info One idea is peer review, but students are often hesitant to criticize each other.
14:01:31 <mchua> #info but that's why we have "class participation and creativity" *wave hands* as 10% of our grade or something.
14:02:13 <ganderson> #info Another suggestion was having a class participation grade so that, if some students fail to perform in their group, the class participation part of their grade will reflect it
14:02:51 <mchua> #info last week, vertical integration was another suggestion - have students from upper classes come back and evaluate/work-with/mentor students from younger classes, specifically pair courses with each other
14:03:04 <mchua> #info even have more advanced classes writing spec / managing development / etc for earlier classes
14:03:13 <ganderson> # Yet another suggestion was forcing students to stand and discuss what they're doing at the start of every class.  This process forces students to discuss what they contribute and easily highlights which students are failing to perform
14:03:19 <ganderson> #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-up_meeting
14:03:27 <kis> Has anybody used CATME (www.catme.org)? That's an online tool for evaluating contributions to team work.
14:03:44 <mchua> #chair kis
14:03:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: Andrea_H Dave_S Sparks ctyler ganderson gary_at_RIT kis mchua ritsteve skuhaneck willhoft
14:03:46 <ganderson> kis: never heard of it..*click*
14:03:57 <mchua> #info < kis> Has anybody used CATME (www.catme.org)? That's an online tool for evaluating contributions to team work.
14:04:00 <kis> Each team member evaluates him/herself and all team mates on a number of dimensions.
14:04:15 <ritsteve> looked at catme.  Haven't implemented it
14:04:29 <ganderson> kis: that sounds reminiscent of peer evaluations I've had in some of my coursework this past year
14:05:15 <kis> I have used it twice now. Students are still hesitant to criticise each other, but if there are really problems, they will come up.
14:07:18 <ganderson> kis: this is something I've talked with other students about quite often.  Have you ever sat in on an art critique?  Those of us from the tech field might see how those run as "brutal" because a student's work is displayed and the whole class can discuss it (constructively).  What scares me is that some students (and teachers) during these critiques may even say, "You clearly didn't put in enough effort. I think you should redo it" :P
14:07:19 <mchua> #info Vertical integration - if it works, it's great - it can also FAIL HORRIBLY (and be a huge workload for the prof)
14:07:45 <mchua> ganderson: oh man, I took one art class in college and I *loved* that aspect of it... I actually got *feedback* from a number of perspectives on my work
14:07:55 <mchua> It was brutal, I had to adjust to it... but I learned so much from it.
14:08:42 <ganderson> mchua: exactly.  I wish we could adapt some of this process into our field more so that people are more responsive to feedback and also more prepared for criticism
14:08:44 <mchua> ganderson: what other fields do that? what makes that so much of the culture of learning art?
14:09:05 <kis> I have never actually experienced it but have heard about it from different sides during the past year. So I was actually considering sitting in with on a digital arts class this coming year.
14:09:17 <ganderson> mchua: good question!  I'm actually not completely sure... :P
14:09:38 <ritsteve> some writing classes will do this as well in liberal arts
14:09:49 <mchua> ganderson: I wonder how much of it is that art is "subjective" whereas tech work is supposed to have some sort of... "this is the right answer" thing
14:10:27 <kis> There is an NSF funded project that is trying to implement some of these ideas for CS: "studio based learning", Chris Hundhausen is one of the co-PIs.
14:10:30 <ganderson> mchua: there's always a different way to develop some sort of code.  I'm thinking more of showcasing a project for critique as opposed to a code walkthrough
14:10:50 <mchua> ganderson: design critique more?
14:10:52 <ganderson> mchua: for a code walkthrough, that's when students should chime in to point out better solutions to a common problem, programatically
14:11:00 <ritsteve> I do it in some of my game analysis course where students write papers.  I set up peer-review groups so that each author puts up a first draft which the other peer editors critique and they don't submit to me til they've done the second draft
14:11:02 <ganderson> wb Dave_S
14:11:05 <Dave_S> Ty
14:11:39 <ganderson> mchua: hmm?
14:11:42 <mchua> hullo Dave_S - we discussed your comments earlier, if you read up. :) holler if you want more info.
14:15:59 <Dave_S> just got through.  My students were very reticent about peer evaluation, particularly being critical of each other.  Very different from high school students who have no problems expressing criticism.  : ))
14:16:20 <ritsteve> Dave_S: yah we covered that :-)
14:17:12 <mchua> what happens between high school and college, then? :)
14:17:29 <Dave_S> adolescence, hopefully, has ended.
14:17:36 <ganderson> Dave_S: hah!
14:18:14 <ganderson> mchua: what happens is students realize they can't blindly complain to mom and dad.  They become responsible for themselves :)
14:18:23 <Dave_S> (just let my chickens out in the yard here)
14:18:34 * mchua jealous of chickens and those who have fresh eggs. nom.
14:19:08 <Dave_S> I think part of it may be that they have a bit of rebound in their 20's from having discovered the destructive power of unalloyed criticism.
14:19:20 <ganderson> Dave_S: yessum,
14:19:25 <mchua> #info Student blogs are very, very useful for figuring out what your students are thinking - that you don't necessarily hear yet.
14:20:01 <Dave_S> yeah, I'm going to have the students aggregate to a course planet and monitor there.
14:20:15 <mchua> #info Students working in FOSS communities produce *tons* of material that's a huge firehose for instructors to keep track of... but you don't have to read/grade everything! be strategic!
14:20:21 <Dave_S> How techie am I now?
14:20:52 <mchua> Dave_S: exactly as techie as you need to be. :)
14:21:02 <mchua> (which is as techie as you want to be, imo. ;)
14:21:30 <kis> Dave_S: I just set up a planet for my summer students' blogs. It's great! One thing I learned at last week's POSSE :-)
14:22:01 <mchua> Chris just asked if there are any other questions.
14:22:13 <mchua> Dave_S (and kis!) - any questions you want to ask about the teaching of open source, etc?
14:22:17 <Dave_S> kis:  very cool.  Where did you set it up, host?
14:22:26 <mchua> kis: ctyler is one prof who's been doing it for quite a while, he's the other instructor this week, fyi
14:22:38 <kis> mchua: no, no questions.
14:23:31 <Dave_S> I'm good here.  I have a couple of notions, but I'll drop them in as soon as I can retrieve them from my hard drive (brain).
14:23:51 * mchua nods
14:23:53 <mchua> cool!
14:23:54 <kis> Dave_S: I am actually hosting it myself. Well, they use whatever blog they want (wordpress and blogger is what they chose) and I set up the planet on our webserver.
14:24:07 <mchua> well, ctyler is often in this channel too, so it's not like it's the last chance to ask :)
14:24:36 <Dave_S> mchua: yeah.
14:24:40 <mchua> #info It's a paradigm shift - "don't plagiarize, do your own work, know everything there is to know about a subject" - this all gets turned around
14:24:58 <mchua> #info It's ok to use the code of others, ask questions, you can't *possibly* know everything because the project is so big
14:25:07 <Dave_S> Oooh, good point.  YES that is terribly disorienting
14:26:30 <Dave_S> #info a list of paradigms/habits that one needs to address/abandon in the open source environment would be useful as an introductory tool.
14:26:38 <mchua> Dave_S: ...ooo!
14:27:24 <pfroehlich> w00t
14:27:55 <Sparks> mchua: It's not plagiarizing if you use the information in accordance with the license...  right?  :)
14:28:35 <mchua> Sparks: Heh, yeah!
14:28:50 <mchua> Andrea_H asked "do students come in knowing what FOSS is?"
14:28:59 <mchua> gary_at_RIT replies "it wildly varies"
14:29:07 <Sparks> I would agree with that.
14:29:22 <Sparks> You have the Ian's of the world and then you have the folks I used to work for
14:29:23 <Dave_S> mchua: Is that a straight "yes" or a qualified, hesitant "yes?"
14:30:19 <Dave_S> Sparks: who did you work for?
14:30:22 <mchua> Dave_S: That's a straight "yes" - I think of it this way... students need to learn how to properly cite their sources, right? this *forces* them to do it, puts them right up against the notion that people are writing this material *right now* that they are using, and that their work will *also* perhaps get remixed, and that's part of why we build that web of citations.
14:30:59 <Sparks> Dave_S: I work for a gov't contractor
14:31:04 <Dave_S> #info mchua
14:31:04 <Dave_S> :  Dave_S: That's a straight "yes" - I think of it this way... students need to learn how to properly cite their sources, right? this *forces* them to do it, puts them right up against the notion that people are writing this material *right now* that they are using, and that their work will *also* perhaps get remixed, and that's part of why we build that web of citations.
14:31:10 <mchua> Dave_S: as opposed to "bleh, I guess I'll have to figure out whether I type 'Mark Twain' or 'Twain, Mark' or 'Clemens, Samuel aka Twain, Mark' in this [redacted] bibliography"
14:31:16 <Dave_S> That's a good response  : )
14:31:36 <mchua> Dave_S: lemme try that #info one more time, one sec.
14:31:40 <mchua> Dave_S: (it has to be in the same message)
14:31:53 <Dave_S> Sparks: ahhh.
14:31:55 <Dave_S> mchua: ahh
14:32:00 <Dave_S> both
14:32:24 <mchua> #info It's not plagiarizing if you use the information in accordance with the license.
14:32:27 <Dave_S> (my daughter is picking cherries off our trees)
14:32:28 <mchua> #info think of it this way... students need to learn how to properly cite their sources, andthis *forces* them to do it, puts them right up against the notion that people are writing this material *right now* that they are using, and that their work will *also* perhaps get remixed, and that's part of why we build that web of citations, as opposed to "bleh, I guess I'll have to figure out whether I type 'Mark Twain' or 'Twain, Mark' or
14:34:27 <ritsteve> #info:  Setting up a format for reports, documentaion, design docs, requirements docs or whatever that they can just edit fixes most of these issues
14:34:30 <pfroehlich> Dave_S: and then there's "cherry picking" in git :-D
14:34:51 * Sparks finds this channel very distracting...  so many good ideas I don't want to look away.
14:34:53 <Dave_S> pfroehlich: heheh.
14:35:30 <Dave_S> blinding in here, the future's so bright, I need shades.
14:38:53 <Dave_S> mchua: where is the discussion ATM?
14:41:06 <skuhaneck> Dave_S: discussing a co-op project (sugar game 'fortune hunter') that is being worked on by one of ritsteve's students that mchua was advising
14:41:24 <Dave_S> Ohhh. cool.  Good guys.
14:42:37 <skuhaneck> Dave_S: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4272
14:46:40 <Dave_S> I keep forgetting to download this.  My son would go nuts for FH.
14:47:51 <ritsteve> Dave_S: wait til ne end of the summer :-)
14:48:23 <ritsteve> Dave_S: also, sometime during this summer, why don't you try your hand at fortune maker and make a new level :-)
14:48:44 <Dave_S> in their level builder you mean?
14:48:50 <ritsteve> yah
14:49:07 <Dave_S> that's a good thought.
14:50:51 <kis> pfroehlich: Hi!
14:51:32 <kis> pfroehlich: I have to leave to talk to my students, now, but I at least wanted to say hi :-)
14:52:43 <pfroehlich> kis_afk: talked to Chris yesterday, from Edinburgh :-D
15:11:47 <ctyler> #topic Licensing
15:12:09 <ctyler> #info It's important - look at the OSI (open source initiative) for code licenses, Creative Commons (CC) for content.
15:12:39 <ctyler> #topic Plans for the next school year
15:12:44 <Sparks> ctyler: Maybe a good license topic would be the difference between copyright and copyleft
15:12:49 <ctyler> #info last week's attendees plan
15:13:30 <Andrea_H> mchua: do you know of a good link which explains all the licensing stuff Chris is going over?
15:16:23 <pfroehlich> Andrea_H: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
15:16:56 <pfroehlich> Andrea_H: most important rule: don't make up your own, use one of thousands out there, ideally one that's reasonably popular
15:17:09 <pfroehlich> Andrea_H: I tell most of my students to look at GPL and BSD and pick one
15:17:50 <pfroehlich> Andrea_H: depending on whether they want to force others to release source of modifications or not
15:19:43 <Andrea_H> pfroehlich: thanks!
15:20:40 <posse_projector> #link http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/posse-friday/latest
15:21:13 <posse_projector> #info Those are last week's posse participants plan (hey, kis_afk  and pfroehlich and others - my laptop has been fussing with the projector, so if you want to say anything about your plans/if your thinking has changed in the meantime, now is good :)
15:21:38 <posse_projector> #info We'll be doing the same thing here at....
15:21:46 <posse_projector> #link http://typewith.me/posse-rit
15:25:46 <pfroehlich> posse_projector: nothing has changed for me, I'll work on getting a smoother transition from turtleart to "real" python over the next month or so, according to walterbender some hacking will be required for what I want :-D
15:26:39 <posse_projector> pfroehlich: AWESOME
15:26:43 <posse_projector> <--- mchua, btw ;)
15:27:10 * pfroehlich waves and apologizes for never gettting skype to work :-/
15:28:09 <ctyler> Question: Anyone interesting in joining the FOSSCON folks for dinner tonight?
15:29:13 <JonathanD> do we know where yet? :)
15:30:29 <ritsteve> jb quimby's
15:30:30 <skuhaneck> ctyler: I have prior obligations tonight, but  place I like is a pub called J.B. Quimbys http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&q=jb+quimbys&fb=1&gl=us&hq=jb+quimbys&hnear=Brighton,+NY&cid=0,0,12767248139286129304&ei=1JAbTNrSFIO0lQfAoK2FCg&ved=0CBMQnwIwAA&ll=43.087602,-77.580686&spn=0.005986,0.013154&z=16
15:30:38 <ritsteve> About 5-10 minutes from campus
15:30:41 <JonathanD> hehe
15:30:46 <JonathanD> seems that has a few votes
15:30:52 <ctyler> skuhaneck: thanks!
15:30:57 * paulproteus waves.
15:30:59 <JonathanD> SOunds ok to me.
15:31:05 <ritsteve> JonathanD:  eta still 8:00 pm?
15:31:11 <JonathanD> bout that, yeah.
15:31:12 <ctyler> JonathanD: How many folks in your group?
15:31:28 <JonathanD> we have 3 in our car and an unknown number converging on our twitter feed for food.
15:31:47 <skuhaneck> ctyler: It's not a huge place so I would call ahead, but they have a great beer and food menu for decent prices
15:31:50 <JonathanD> shouldn't be a huge bunch though, I think.
15:32:01 <JonathanD> we should probably call them and let them know we're coming into town.
15:32:05 <ctyler> Can you convert "unknown number" to an integer, and we'll add our numbers and make a reservation?
15:32:07 <JonathanD> and that more might follow
15:32:24 <JonathanD> ctyler: lets say 20 people, worst case?
15:32:38 <JonathanD> I'd warn them both ways. it might be LESS but it could be that many.
15:32:56 <JonathanD> or it could be half of rochester
15:33:01 <JonathanD> which might be bad
15:33:02 <JonathanD> :P
15:33:05 <JonathanD> but I doubt that.
15:33:07 <ctyler> :-D
15:33:20 <ctyler> Probably 10-20 range, I suppose?
15:33:23 <JonathanD> it would be good PUBlicity for them if it was.
15:33:28 <JonathanD> yeah.
15:34:16 <ctyler> perfect, we'll make the phone call for 8 pm eta
15:34:34 <JonathanD> cool
15:34:39 <JonathanD> can someone send me a cell number?
15:34:44 <JonathanD> in case we're behind?
15:36:10 <ctyler> JonathanD: pm
15:36:21 <JonathanD> thanks.
15:36:22 <ritsteve> should be ctyler.  Dunno if I'm gonna make it
15:41:14 <skuhaneck> ritsteve: are your students running many trac installations for all their project? if so how many?
15:42:32 <ritsteve> skuhaneck:https://fedorahosted.org/fossrit/
15:54:12 <Andrea_H> gotta go. keep in touch folks!
15:54:19 * mchua waves
15:54:23 <ritsteve> ditto, adios
15:54:27 <gary_at_RIT> bye
15:54:29 <mchua> Dave_S: oh! We're all in the etherpad, I am not sure if you caught that
15:54:35 <mchua> Dave_S: we are all writing up our next-actions
15:54:39 <Dave_S> no
15:54:53 <Dave_S> can you drop me the link?
15:55:31 <ganderson> JonathanD: ping, I will be at the POSSE panel tomorrow for FOSSCon
15:55:38 <Dave_S> mchua: can you drop the link in here?
15:55:41 <JonathanD> ganderson: glad to hear it!
15:55:45 <ctyler> JonathanD: I'll be on the POSSE panel too
15:55:53 <posse_projector> Dave_S: http://typewith.me/posse-rit
15:56:00 <JonathanD> pssst. speakers are getting free pizza.
15:56:03 <JonathanD> ;)
15:56:10 <mchua> Dave_S: We are on Gary right now - gives you time to write up your section at the bottom ;)
15:59:21 <quaid> Dave_S: that was funny, I was up letting my chickens out here in Santa Cruz about the same time you were there.
16:02:15 <Dave_S> quaid: NICE.  Was just picking cherries too. ; )
16:02:33 <quaid> yeah, that get's a *jealous* over here
16:02:42 <quaid> well, except I'm not jealous over the weather conditions you require for cherries
16:03:01 <quaid> (we have a Cali coastal "variety" planted that gave about a dozen+ cherries this year, woo!)
16:03:50 <Dave_S> 30 minutes got us about two gallons.  Got a pitter, will put up some cherry jam this year I think.
16:05:20 <gary_at_RIT> JonathanD:  I will be at FOSSCon tomorrow also
16:05:32 <JonathanD> gary_at_RIT: great to hear.
16:06:08 <Dave_S> is there a way to get the shared doc form to show who made edits?  three or four folks have the same color.
16:07:25 <gary_at_RIT> Dave_S: its color coded
16:07:48 <Dave_S> and half the folks have the same color on my screen.  : (
16:07:57 <gary_at_RIT> Dave_S: ohh
16:09:00 <mchua> JonathanD: I'll be at FOSSCon tomorrow, of course, but that goes without saying. :)
16:09:16 <mchua> Dave_S: We're trying to annotate it with our names when it matters who is saying something.
16:09:47 <Dave_S> someone volunteered to help me with some writing, but I can't tell who it was.  : )
16:10:00 <JonathanD> mchua: oh darn, we didn't want you there ;)
16:10:01 <JonathanD> :P
16:10:11 <mchua> JonathanD: I'll just have to show up and ruin it then ;)
16:11:10 <quaid> Dave_S: you might be able to tell with etherpad if you rerun all the edits.
16:11:36 * quaid looks for what he means
16:11:36 <Dave_S> okay.
16:12:02 <quaid> I think it's the "time slider"
16:12:39 <quaid> it let's you replay the entire history in fast forward
16:12:43 <quaid> (visually)
16:13:04 <mchua> Dave_S: top right corner
16:13:08 <quaid> looks like people joining and leaving has made the colors mixed up ...
16:13:25 <ganderson> mchua: yer laptop beeped and is low batt
16:13:25 <quaid> but the tool itself _should_ be tracking real changes, so if you looked at is as data you can see who contributed what part.
16:13:33 <ganderson> mchua: IT'S GONNA DIEEEEE :<
16:13:37 <mchua> ganderson: zomg thanks
16:13:59 <mchua> ganderson: I need to find a way to make my system flash the screen or something when that happens, I ignore the little power icon of doooom
16:14:17 <quaid> stop talking and start plugging
16:14:33 * mchua plugged
16:16:03 * ganderson snickers
16:18:26 <mchua> Dave_S: we looked at your stuff and it was happy
16:18:33 <mchua> Everyone has a good idea of where to go next, methinks
16:18:38 <Dave_S> hahahaa
16:18:44 <mchua> #link http://typewith.me/ep/pad/view/posse-rit/latest
16:18:45 <Dave_S> cool
16:18:50 <mchua> #topic Wrapping up
16:18:59 <mchua> #info Everyone's got a pretty good idea on where to go next
16:19:20 <gary_at_RIT> see you all laters
16:19:36 <mchua> #info Please subscribe to the TOS list if you want to continue this conversation
16:19:40 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/mailman/listinfo/tos
16:19:47 <mchua> #info And..... that's all, folks!
16:20:28 <ctyler> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/TeachingOpenSource_Mailing_List
16:20:40 <Dave_S> CIAO!  This was a pleasure!  Very exciting stuff.  Thank you Chris and Mel!!!!
16:22:07 <Dave_S> clapclapclapclapclapclapclap
16:38:18 * pfroehlich applauds
16:38:29 * pfroehlich thanks for another FOSS converted audience :-D
16:44:16 <mchua> pfroehlich: *grin* our posse grows.
17:16:59 <mchua> #endmeeting