12:20:24 <mchua> #startmeeting
12:20:24 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jun 15 12:20:24 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:20:24 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
12:20:30 <mchua> #meetingname POSSE RIT Tuesday
12:20:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'posse_rit_tuesday'
12:20:46 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_RIT#Tuesday
12:39:24 <ganderson> mchua: sup
12:39:42 <mchua> ganderson: ceilingcat
12:39:47 <ganderson> mchua: sdown
12:39:53 <mchua> ganderson: floorcat
12:40:02 <ganderson> I'm done :P
12:40:05 <mchua> ganderson: the answer is always *cat
12:40:12 <ganderson> mchua: should we have a flash drive today? D:
12:40:17 <mchua> ganderson: Nopes.
12:40:27 <ganderson> mchua: ** Nopescat.
12:42:42 <ctyler> mchua: should we expand the square?
12:42:51 <mchua> ganderson: aha! you've learned the invisible s/*/\1cat in my head.
12:43:02 <mchua> ctyler: poss...ibly.
12:43:02 <KarlieRobinson> Good morning everyone
12:43:18 <ctyler> morning KarlieRobinson
12:43:37 <KarlieRobinson> So everyone is in Rochester, but I'm in Des Moines IA
12:43:55 <KarlieRobinson> Sorry that I couldn't be there
12:44:04 <Andrea_H> if i'm using my own computer, should i download fedora?
12:44:51 * pfroehlich waves groggily
12:48:14 <ganderson> Andrea_H: do you have the VirtualBox image?
12:48:32 <Andrea_H> ganderson: yes
12:48:50 <ganderson> mchua: also...shouldn't it be 's/(*)/\1cat'? :)
12:50:06 <mchua> Andrea_H: You can either run Fedora on your computer in a virtual machine, or have 2 laptops (your own, and a thinkpad) - that's probably easiest
12:50:09 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Planet
12:50:57 <Andrea_H> @mchua:  thanks. I'll try the virtual box first.
12:51:07 <JonSchull> made it
12:51:09 <ganderson> ah it's JonSchull!
12:51:12 <mchua> #chair posse_projector
12:51:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: mchua posse_projector
12:51:16 <mchua> #chair ctyler
12:51:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: ctyler mchua posse_projector
12:51:22 <mchua> #chair lmacken
12:51:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: ctyler lmacken mchua posse_projector
12:51:46 <posse_projector> We're getting everyone in the channel, as remotees can tell.
12:51:51 <RITSteve> good morning
12:51:55 * pfroehlich snores
12:52:05 <posse_projector> (morning, pfroehlich - you're on the big screen. ;)
12:52:21 <pfroehlich> posse_projector: oh, well, then I will pretend to be awake :_D
12:52:41 * mchua is happy to see folks from last week hanging out! the blog posts hitting planet reflecting on last week == also *awesome*
12:52:56 <ganderson> morning gary_at_RIT
12:53:17 <gary_at_RIT> morning
12:53:47 <pfroehlich> mchua: so how are the current blog posts? :-D
12:54:03 <ganderson> mornin' ssweet
12:54:52 <ssweet> ganderson: good morning to you. hope you're doing well this fine morning
12:54:53 <ctyler> http://planet.fedoraproject.org/ # Fedora Planet
12:56:14 <quaid> morning y'all
12:58:01 <KarlieRobinson> morining quaid
12:58:16 <ganderson> mchua: you still connected here?
12:58:20 <RITSteve> Grrrrrrr  Internal server error for blog on tos planet.  Suggestions?
12:58:27 * pfroehlich has read all your blogs, yay! :-D
12:59:11 <quaid> mchua: so tell me how you plan to abuse publican today?
13:00:09 <RITSteve> KarlieRobinson:  Howdy
13:00:32 <mprppr> RITSteve: check your address -- I had a similar problem becuase I had "feed" instead of "http"
13:00:58 <pfroehlich> mchua, ctyler: so is it sugar or fedora they are working on? can't really tell from over here
13:00:59 <RITSteve> mprppr: Edited that out this am .  Will double check
13:01:53 <RITSteve> mprppr:  must be the planet needs to refresh at the server to record the change
13:02:04 <KarlieRobinson> Hi RITSteve
13:03:20 <gary_at_RIT> hey KarlieRobinson
13:03:34 <KarlieRobinson> Hi gary_at_RIT
13:04:02 <KarlieRobinson> It's so weird knowing you're all about a mile from my house, yet I'm in another time zone
13:04:26 <ganderson> KarlieRobinson: huh? :P
13:04:50 <posse_projector> #link http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/
13:04:56 <KarlieRobinson> I'm giving a training in a few hours in West Des Moines IA
13:05:00 <ganderson> ahh
13:05:05 <posse_projector> #link http://betterexplained.com/articles/intro-to-distributed-version-control-illustrated/
13:05:06 <posse_projector> hello, KarlieRobinson! Want to introduce yourself?
13:05:06 <KarlieRobinson> I don't fly home till tomorrow afternoon
13:05:14 <KarlieRobinson> Yes posse_projector
13:05:18 <mchua> pfroehlich: Both.
13:05:24 <mchua> pfroehlich: We'll move more towards the Sugar-hat direction today.
13:05:33 <KarlieRobinson> If you couldn't guess by my screen name, I'm Karlie Robinson
13:05:34 <mchua> pfroehlich: the blog posts are great, btw :)
13:05:52 <KarlieRobinson> I've been called the most influential Hactivist in WNY
13:06:04 <ganderson> http://righteouspictures.com/web/
13:06:12 <KarlieRobinson> Which means I'm a professional Busy-body in the FOSS world
13:06:46 <KarlieRobinson> I helped RITSteve get his FOSS Class started
13:06:59 <KarlieRobinson> and I generally poke my nose in when I can
13:07:24 <mchua> KarlieRobinson: We'll see you at FOSSCon and dinner on Thursday? :)
13:07:26 <KarlieRobinson> I also live just across the river from RIT
13:07:35 <KarlieRobinson> Yes, and the guys want to come if that's ok
13:07:51 <KarlieRobinson> mchua: the boys have been asking about you
13:08:19 <KarlieRobinson> You're becoming the Cool aunt who lives out of town
13:08:23 <mchua> KarlieRobinson: I'm looking forward to seeing them!
13:08:31 <mchua> #topic OLPC impact video
13:08:58 <mchua> #link http://righteouspictures.com/web/
13:09:08 <walterbender> pfroehlich: I merged the patches last night... had to resolve a conflict in audiograb.py...
13:09:14 <mchua> #info We're watching the trailer right now, as a scene-setting thing for why we're doing what we're doing here.
13:09:25 * KarlieRobinson is going off topic for a moment
13:09:34 <KarlieRobinson> anyone want Iowa Cow Tipping shirts?\
13:09:37 <mchua> KarlieRobinson: That's perfectly all right, it's what backchannel is for. :)
13:09:40 <mchua> KarlieRobinson: ...I'm tempted.
13:09:47 <KarlieRobinson> email me with your order and I'll get them tomorrow on the way out of town
13:10:56 <KarlieRobinson> mchua has my email.  Just tell me the size you want and we'll settle up at Dinner Thursday
13:11:06 <mchua> :D
13:16:16 <RITSteve> Karlie Rocks! :-)
13:16:48 <quaid> rocks and tips cows?
13:17:14 <mchua> morning, quaid!
13:17:26 <pfroehlich> walterbender: yeah, sorry, I took out a bunch of redundant stuff in one of my commits :-./
13:17:30 <mchua> nice timing, after this I was going to give people a crash course in git and publican (by way of showing them build systems)
13:17:35 <mchua> quaid: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP is what I want to walk through
13:17:54 <quaid> got it thanks, I finally looked up the agenda :)
13:18:53 <mchua> quaid: so if you want to introduce yourself (since they don't know who you are yet) - type here, I'll pull it up when the video's done -
13:19:04 <quaid> ok
13:19:10 <mchua> quaid: ...and give a short description of what Publican is, and how, say, documentation teams use it, why you'd use it instead of word docs or whatever - that'd be awesome
13:19:14 <quaid> posse_projector: hi everyone
13:19:30 <quaid> I'll take chance to intro myself while everyone is distracted so you won't interrupt my flow of cool words
13:19:45 <pfroehlich> mchua: sdz's links don't work :-/
13:20:00 <mchua> pfroehlich: I'll go through and fix them, checking now.
13:20:05 <mchua> ah yeah, we uploaded the docs to different places
13:20:08 <walterbender> pfroehlich: those changes were fine... I had just had a bunch of debugging statements I needed to move
13:20:20 <quaid> heh, not fast enough for IRC :)
13:20:47 <quaid> ok, I'm a colleague of Mel's, both working on Red Hat's community leadership team
13:20:50 <mchua> pfroehlich: try again?
13:21:12 <quaid> I've been with RHT for the last 9 years in a bunch of different roles, and over that time I've also been a Fedora contributor
13:21:38 <quaid> I was an early Fedora Docs team member and lead the team for several years until I finally got myself replaced *whew*
13:22:30 <quaid> so in reference to today, I've been a technical writer using DocBook XML for 7+ years
13:22:51 <mchua> What's DocBook XML?
13:22:51 <quaid> and worked with the team that founded redhat.com/docs, which is the team that now produces Publican, as well as setting the Fedora Docs standards
13:22:58 <mchua> And Publican? :)
13:23:13 <quaid> and all of that is a platform that Sugar's documentationk is able to stand on from the start
13:23:31 <quaid> mchua: hey, this is a personal intro, can't be expected to solve everything in one sentence !
13:23:54 <quaid> actually, I'm ready for that, if we're ready with Q&A
13:23:58 <quaid> so I don't go too far, too fast :)
13:24:07 <mchua> #topic Fun With Publican
13:24:43 <quaid> DocBook XML is a subset of XML, and is a series of tags (~400?) and tools for producing documents
13:25:14 <quaid> the basic idea is that you can have a document in a single source (XML) where you focus on content fidelity and don't worry about style/output formats.
13:25:36 <quaid> when you are ready to make a document, you render the XML to an output format - HTML, PDF, Epub, TXT, etc.
13:26:12 <quaid> the XML can be read directly by some programs, which is useful; and those same programs can use the DocBook XML styling elements to produce a fairly clean, simple book
13:26:28 <quaid> an example of this is 'yelp'
13:26:38 <quaid> in Fedora (GNOME), if you go to System > Help
13:26:42 <ganderson> quaid: how does docbook xml compare to latex?
13:27:00 <quaid> the program that comes up is 'yelp' and it can render XML natively, such as under Other Documentation
13:27:17 <RITSteve> @quaid:  What do I use to generate the XML doc?
13:27:19 <quaid> ganderson: fundamentally, the idea is the same
13:27:25 <quaid> RITSteve: a plain text editor
13:27:36 <quaid> or any editor that can produce plain ASCII
13:28:04 <quaid> so I use Emacs (which has great XML modes to help editing), others use vi/Vim, Kate, GEdit
13:28:22 <quaid> there is a nice plugin for Eclipse :) .. and other IDEs have support for it
13:29:08 <quaid> ganderson: I'm not clear historically why the RHT team chose XML of LaTeX
13:29:26 <quaid> it was actually SGML back then, and I suspect it was "easier" to work with
13:29:47 <quaid> it's one of those tooling decisions that is hard to reverse, if you ever want to (which we haven't)
13:29:51 <mchua> #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP#Viewing_the_Documentation
13:30:20 <quaid> Publican is a tool for testing and building documents that are i) in DocBook XML, and ii) are formatted to Publican's standards.
13:30:26 <mchua> quaid: I'm going to start walking them through the exercise up on the screen
13:30:34 <mchua> quaid: but keep going - they can pay attention here, or there, whichever one helps more :)
13:30:41 <RITSteve> @quaid: So I'm writing in (or saving to) plain ASCCI so that I lose any formatting, then I take the accii file and run it through yelp?  When does it get formatted in its final form
13:30:50 <quaid> Publican has standards so that the RHT content services team and translation teams can work more effectively, so it allows a subset of DocBook
13:31:15 <quaid> RITSteve: so, if you have a basic XML file that is formatted correctly
13:31:16 <ctyler> quaid: mel  is about to start the walkthrough of the checkout/build
13:31:19 <quaid> Yelp will read it as-is
13:31:47 <quaid> if you want to build a book
13:32:15 <quaid> there are a number of command line (and other) tools to build, mostly using a series of XML parsing tools (XSLT, etc.)
13:32:16 <DaveScolloquy> Clone?
13:32:30 <ctyler> Go to applications>SystemTools>Terminal
13:33:15 <mchua> DaveScolloquy: Yep, clone -
13:33:17 <mchua> "make a copy"
13:33:23 <ctyler> #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP
13:33:24 <quaid> that is what Publican uses under the covers - XSLT and so forth
13:34:11 <ctyler> then in the Terminal, enter this command (as supplied by the link above): git clone git://git.sugarlabs.org/soas-docs/mainline.git soas-docs
13:34:38 <quaid> RITSteve: once the XML files are there and the publican.cfg is created, with all of it formatted the way Publican likes it, you run e.g.:
13:34:58 <quaid> 'publican build --lang=en-US --formats=html'
13:34:59 <mchua> quaid: one sec - some folks just realized they need to be running not-Windows to do this :)
13:35:09 <quaid> the --lang is a list of languages, --formats is a list of formats, seperated by commas
13:35:21 <quaid> well
13:35:27 <quaid> or be ssh'd in to a non-windows machine, yeah
13:36:20 <ctyler> quaid: we're backing up a step here, not everyone has or is logged in to the Fedora image
13:36:41 <quaid> sure thing :)
13:36:55 <quaid> I feel like I'm a bit too far as it is, considering there is a lot more in there ...
13:36:59 <quaid> so glad not to lose people
13:37:12 <quaid> here's a crazy thought though ...
13:37:28 <mchua> go for it, quaid!
13:37:32 <quaid> do you have a solution for the needs for Fedora?
13:37:52 <quaid> you going to boot live images from a virt of somekind?
13:38:37 <mchua> quaid: we have pre-flashed laptops, some folks just brought their own and didn't realize they needed a Fedora environment
13:38:40 <mchua> quaid: so we're all set
13:38:48 <ctyler> #info Step 1: Start the Fedora environment and log in
13:38:49 <quaid> otherwise, you can download PuTTY for the Windows machines and let folks shell in to Fedora machines.
13:38:53 <quaid> ok
13:39:25 <quaid> yes, it will help if you've got the git repo cloned so you can see the Publican docs
13:39:33 <ctyler> #info Step 2: Start a terminal by selecting the menu option: Applications>System Tools>Terminal
13:39:48 * quaid is surprised directories are checked in with " " in the name, but that is a level above Publican's needs so it must not care ...
13:40:33 <ctyler> #info Step 3: Type this command: git clone git://git.sugarlabs.org/soas-docs/mainline.git soas-docs
13:40:38 <mchua> ctyler: sorry, I should have checked environments first thing in the morning...
13:40:52 <ctyler> (into the terminal window that you've opened ^ )
13:41:02 <ctyler> we'll pause here until we get everyone synced up
13:41:29 <quaid> that sounds like a chance to start up my "oatmeal environment"
13:41:54 * quaid explains for those in the audience that he is in California
13:41:55 <ctyler> mchua: I think this would be best demonstrated -- you could put your machine in mirror mode and demo the steps
13:42:11 <mchua> ctyler: Yeah, I'm going to just demo right now
13:43:31 <ctyler> mchua: lockstep
13:43:36 <ctyler> show us one step as we do it
13:44:11 <mchua> #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP
13:47:00 <ctyler> #info Step 4: type "ls" (list files) -- you should see a list of folders, including one named "soas-docs" (alternately, you can use the "liveuser's Home" icon on the desktop to browse the soas-docs directory)
13:48:20 <ctyler> #info Step  5: If you want to take a look at the files, you can open one of the XML files by clicking on it in the graphical viewer, or opening an editor from the command line
13:48:55 <ctyler> You can edit the text in any of these files if you choose.
13:49:01 * quaid checks to see what happens in GUI mode with viewing
13:49:51 <ctyler> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP
13:50:02 <quaid> when I click on it in the graphical viewer ... nothing  completes here
13:50:21 * quaid has a strange default for XML it appears
13:50:25 <ctyler> #info In the graphical view, you may need to right-click and open it with GEdit
13:50:39 <quaid> ha
13:50:45 <ctyler> quaid: same thing here, needs a right-click apparently
13:51:01 <quaid> yeah, and if you send it to Firefox, for exames
13:51:03 <quaid> example
13:51:24 <quaid> it doesn't know what to do with "Customization Guide" and tries to load tvguide.com/Filename.xml
13:51:30 <quaid> that is, the " " space
13:51:44 <ganderson> mchua: maybe use an absolute path?  /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit
13:52:26 <ctyler> #info Step 6: In the terminal, change into the directory containing the document we want to build: cd "soas-docs/Creation Kit"
13:53:08 <quaid> or 'cd soas-docs/Creation\ Kit
13:54:18 <ctyler> #info Step 7: build the PDF of the US English version of the documentation: publican build --format=pdf --lang=en-US
13:54:49 <quaid> PDF building is the most sensitive
13:55:06 <quaid> an HTML build will ignore a stray ',' that will break a PDF build
13:55:10 <ctyler> There may be warnings about missing PDFs or fonts, you can successfully complete the build without them
13:55:23 <quaid> yes, as long as no ERROR comes to stop it all
13:55:35 <quaid> and it throws some mighty warnings, but yep, don't worry
13:56:35 <ganderson> annnnd once you've run the publican command, you can view the output PDF in evince! --> type: evince /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit/tmp/en-US/pdf/Sugar_on_a_Stick-3-Creation_Kit-en-US.pdf
13:56:53 <Dave_S> I'm having trouble getting down past the creation kid directory
13:56:56 <Dave_S> kit
13:57:26 <ganderson> Dave_S: were you able to run the publican command?
13:58:01 <Dave_S> no
13:58:30 <ganderson> Dave_S: did you make a change to the xml file, yet?
13:58:37 <mchua> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Documentation_SOP
13:58:41 <Dave_S> yes
13:59:27 <ganderson> Dave_S: okay so you need to change to the directory with the publican config
13:59:39 <ganderson> Dave_S : type: cd /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit
14:00:03 <Dave_S> rgr
14:00:06 <ganderson> Dave_S: then type: publican build --format=pdf --lang=en-US
14:00:16 <ctyler> #info Step 7: find and open the pdf: evince tmp/en-US/*pdf     -- or use the graphical viewer
14:00:21 <ganderson> Dave_S: and after that command runs type: evince /home/liveuser/soas-docs/Creation\ Kit/tmp/en-US/pdf/Sugar_on_a_Stick-3-Creation_Kit-en-US.pdf
14:01:05 <ganderson> Dave_S: work? :D
14:01:16 <Dave_S> workingon it
14:01:45 <quaid> ctyler: you may want to pull and correct that last #info step
14:02:03 <mchua> quaid: Most of the folks in the classroom have successfully built their PDF
14:02:12 <ctyler> quaid: oops, what did I do?
14:02:17 <quaid> s/\*pdf/\pdf\/*pdf/
14:02:27 <quaid> it's a tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf
14:02:32 <Dave_S> getting No such file or directory
14:02:35 <ctyler> ah, thanks
14:02:48 <quaid> Dave_S: no such file for the 'evince' command?
14:02:52 <quaid> or the 'publican build'?
14:02:55 <ctyler> #info Step 7: CORRECTION: find and open the pdf: evince tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf     -- or use the graphical viewer
14:03:03 <Dave_S> I have not gotten to do the build yet
14:03:06 <quaid> ok
14:03:14 <Dave_S> cant get to the correct directory apparently
14:03:25 <quaid> yeah, it's maybe the space in the name
14:03:42 <quaid> what directory are you in?
14:03:43 <quaid> 'pwd'
14:03:47 <quaid> to find out
14:03:48 <ganderson> Dave_S: if you wave at me, I'll come take a look!
14:03:49 <Dave_S> soas.docs
14:03:55 <Dave_S> Yes
14:04:17 <quaid> ok,let's do that, in person will solve it faster :)
14:04:23 <quaid> for those first using IRC ...
14:04:36 <quaid> this kind of thing happens all the time, needing to work something out that is a relatively simple error
14:04:53 <quaid> often we'll use a paste site, where we can paste multiple lines of output without disrupting the channel.
14:05:00 <quaid> e.g. http://fpaste.org
14:05:21 <ctyler> #info Step 8: you can create a "patch" containing your changes: git diff >creation-kit-patch.patch
14:06:15 <Dave_S> k looks like i'v got the build now
14:06:48 <RITSteve> @mchua:  totally in the weeds
14:06:48 <ctyler> You can then go and look at the patch file -- you'll see that it's recorded just the changes between what you cloned with GIT and the current state of the files
14:07:03 <ganderson> Dave_S: okay...now do: evince tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf
14:07:09 <Dave_S> evince tmp/en-US/pdf/*pdf
14:07:33 <ganderson> in the terminal :P
14:07:40 <Dave_S> ya
14:07:43 <Dave_S> urk
14:08:00 <quaid> RITSteve: are you stuck?
14:08:01 <Dave_S> k now says unable to open document
14:08:09 <ganderson> booo brt
14:08:38 <mchua> People have made patch files!!!
14:08:51 <RITSteve> 2QUAID:  finally got the pdf, now trying to catch up
14:08:58 <quaid> roger
14:11:00 <RITSteve> patch file create woot!
14:11:52 <lmacken> next up... interactive rebasing with git! ;)
14:12:05 <mchua> lmacken: yeah, you can do that one :P
14:12:17 <JonathanD> Morning.
14:14:17 <ganderson> lmacken: interactive rebasing..? D: *cries*
14:18:13 <lmacken> ganderson: I love it.  Being able to re-write history and generate patches that make you look like a ninja :)
14:18:56 <quaid> I'd rather do _anything_ in git than any other SCM, even cook lunch.
14:18:57 <mchua> We are now emailing our patch files to each other and applying someone else's patchfile to our repo.
14:19:04 <quaid> cool
14:19:11 <ctyler> #info Step 9: exchange patches with a partner
14:19:31 <mchua> quaid: I'd actually like to hear how this sort of workflow fits into a bigger project
14:19:38 <mchua> Fedora Docs, for instance... how you do things, how you coordinate
14:19:52 <mchua> quaid: ...do you have skype? (even audio?) or... ctyler, fedora talk maybe?
14:19:57 * mchua is really bad at audio stuff, for obvious reasons
14:20:03 <quaid> hmm
14:20:20 <mchua> I'd like to dial Karsten in somehow if we can, since I'm not sure how many folks are catching the text here (which is great)
14:20:26 <ctyler> #info Step 10: apply your partner's patch: patch -p0 <nameOfPatchFile
14:20:31 <quaid> ironically I did a screencast the other day that i) sucks and ii) isn't for external consuption
14:20:35 <mchua> quaid: darn
14:20:42 <quaid> um, skype is not allowed :)
14:21:00 <mchua> quaid: ...yeah, I know, I just don't have any other suggestions
14:21:13 <quaid> so ...
14:21:23 <ctyler> mchua: can you scroll the screen to the patch command
14:21:30 <ctyler> pls?
14:21:37 <quaid> brb
14:22:11 <ctyler> mchua: need <
14:23:25 <ganderson> easier way to share your patch file: cat patchFile.patch | fpaste
14:23:28 <KarlieRobinson> sorry everyone, but I have to go
14:23:29 <ganderson> then send the fpaste to your partner
14:23:50 <KarlieRobinson> Talk to you all Thrusday if I don't catch you online before I leave Tomorrow morning
14:23:56 <ganderson> and for the partner, when looking at the fpaste link provided, click the "view raw" link and copy the text there
14:24:10 <mchua> See you, Karlie! Thanks for swinging by.
14:24:52 <KarlieRobinson> NP mchua
14:24:57 <KarlieRobinson> bye
14:25:27 <mchua> Hey, satellit__ !
14:25:42 <satellit__> hi just observing
14:26:20 <mchua> lmacken: I want you to demo this one - what happens when two patches confict, what's your workflow?
14:26:34 <mchua> If you've applied your patch, go around and help others.
14:26:43 <Dave_S> ls
14:26:54 <JonathanD> wrong window :)
14:26:57 <Dave_S> ugh yah
14:28:20 <Dave_S> I'm out in the weeds again.  I don' tknow how to find my patch, or if I've made the file/
14:28:42 <lmacken> mchua: well, I use git-format-patch, and git-am/git-apply.... then I have to resolve the git merge conflict (which is different from when you use `patch` to apply conflicting patches)
14:28:58 <lmacken> mchua: as for when `patch` explodes... yeah, that gets messy.
14:30:27 <quaid> mchua: how about if you all work out everyone's stuff to get to a common point
14:30:33 <quaid> then we can use Fedora Talk on posse_projector
14:32:34 <mchua> quaid: We're almost at that point now, so I'm trying to figure out fedora talk setup.
14:33:11 <willhoft_> when using git, in the command patch -p2 < patchfile.file, what is the p2 option?
14:35:05 <gary_at_RIT> willhoft:  if you go to the cmd line and do man patch, there is an explanation of the p flag
14:35:33 <RITSteve> I have recieved a patch file url from my partner.  Now what :-)
14:36:41 <mrr> mrr
14:39:55 <mchua> RITSteve: Apply the patch - the command is on the terminal on the projector.
14:42:47 <quaid> .ext quaid
14:42:47 <zodbot> quaid: 5100038
14:44:05 <mchua> quaid: ctyler will be calling you
14:44:13 <mchua> he's setting things up in the front now
14:44:19 <RITSteve> @mchua: Not anymore :-)
14:44:36 <mchua> RITSteve: hush :)
14:44:40 <mchua> RITSteve: I'll write it on the board
14:45:03 <quaid> mic off
14:45:04 <quaid> one sec
14:45:33 <ctyler> quaid: good
14:45:53 <quaid> < Karsten Wade
14:46:00 <ganderson> ^Karsten Wade
14:46:53 <mchua> #info Karsten's on the phone!
14:47:19 <mchua> quaid: I can barely understand the audio, so I'll shoot messages here and trust you on improvising and knowing when to ignore me and whatnot. ;)
14:47:42 <ctyler> mchua: quaid is doing introduction -- himself, docs project, publican
14:48:04 <mchua> quaid: we've just explained - and gone through - the "get source, change source, build locally to test, make a patchfile, send the patch back upstream - here's how you dialogue with people to get them to accept it" - cycle
14:48:10 <ganderson> apparently we're a photoshoot right now D:
14:48:32 <mchua> quaid: so hearing about that in the context of Fedora Docs, etc. would be awesome - how does this work when you have a project with millions of users, tens of thousands of contributors, dozens of simultaneous writers?
14:48:34 <ctyler> quaid: lost audio
14:48:35 <ganderson> quaid: I think we lost you :(
14:48:39 <quaid> oop
14:48:43 <quaid> one sec
14:48:48 <ctyler> redialing
14:48:49 <ganderson> yep
14:48:50 <quaid> hmm
14:48:54 <ganderson> hmm!
14:49:10 <ctyler> we're on wifi on this end too, ouch
14:49:21 <ctyler> bit of audio breakup
14:49:48 <ctyler> btw, FedoraTalk is the Fedora community's VOIP phone system
14:50:01 <ctyler> let's do Q&A
14:50:23 <ctyler> mchua: might put something more interesting on projector during photo shoot :-)
14:51:28 <ctyler> Steve Jacobs question -- where does Publican fit into the food chain?
14:51:40 * quaid listening
14:51:51 <ctyler> I'm writing doc, which I save as an ASCII file, then what?
14:53:37 <quaid> I can't hear the room's questions as well, lots of small echoy noises
14:54:21 * mchua would like to pull back a bit and use this as an example of a FOSS contribution workflow - not getting *too* stuck on the details of Publican
14:54:25 <ctyler> Plain text input
14:54:39 <mchua> quaid: if you can point out examples of other "get source, modify/build, push changes" cycles, that'd be great too
14:54:43 <ctyler> How do you take that and make it into something that you can feed into Publican?
14:54:49 <mchua> quaid: I'm trying to get the general "this works for code!" etc. idea across as well.
14:55:26 <ctyler> slight audio breakup
14:55:48 <ctyler> quaid: I think question is more basic -- how do we get docbook xml to start with? Easily?
14:56:44 <quaid> did I just drop?
14:56:51 <mchua> question: "Do you have to hand-write DocbookXML Markup?"
14:56:52 <lmacken> i think so
14:56:54 <mchua> quaid: ...yes
14:57:01 <quaid> I'll let you write back
14:57:09 <quaid> call
14:57:32 <ctyler> calling (?)
14:57:32 <mchua> quaid: the next thing we're going to talk about (briefly) is edit conflicts and merges (using the wiki)
14:57:34 <quaid> don't worry folks, I'll figure out what you need :)
14:57:49 <ctyler> calling again
14:58:07 <mchua> quaid: and then we'll have people play with Sugar to get used to it for the remainder of the hour
14:58:08 <ctyler> The question is, if we don't care about or want to hand-roll docbook xml, can we use publican?
14:58:14 <ctyler> getting Voicemail when calling you
14:58:14 <quaid> no
14:58:20 <quaid> huh
14:58:24 <quaid> one sec let me reregister
14:58:34 <RITSteve> quaid:  answer I assume I'm looking for at this point is use a word processor or editor that saves as xml and then move from there
14:58:36 <ctyler> ringing
14:58:39 <quaid> I'm here
14:58:57 * mchua may have people check out Sugar Activity code as well, before lunch
14:59:00 <mchua> (we'll see)
14:59:17 <ctyler> How about ODT->docbook XML conversion? (Did this for my O'Reilly books)
14:59:30 <satellit__> Ooo write? How to edit xml
14:59:49 * lmacken uses reStructuredText for all of his documentation, which is an easy-to-read, what-you-see-is-what-you-get plaintext markup syntax and parser system.
15:00:05 <mchua> satellit__: Using word processors to edit XML usually ends up putting a lot of syntax you don't want in that XML - I strongly prefer editing XML in plaintext.
15:00:19 <satellit__> thanks
15:00:27 <mchua> gEdit, or some other text editor - or a wysiwyg editor built for editing xml.
15:00:30 <ganderson> mchua: I'd even lean towards an actual "XML editor"
15:00:41 <ganderson> even if it's just using a plugin within eclipse or something like that
15:00:44 <mchua> ganderson: I'd love to hear recommendations - I usually just do it straight-up
15:00:56 * mchua has considered using eclipse, but it's huge and I never quite did get started.
15:01:12 <ganderson> Oxygen (even though it's payware and a little pricey :( ) is cross platform and pretty awesome for XML editing/generation
15:01:18 <ctyler> mchua: me too wrt eclipse
15:01:30 * pfroehlich waves
15:01:30 <mchua> never needed to do anything that big that really needed a full-fledged IDE, mostly... I'm sure if I went back to development as my $dayjob, that might change
15:01:35 <mchua> hullo pfroehlich!
15:01:37 * pfroehlich hopes all is going well at RIT :-D
15:02:21 <ganderson> on XML: http://xml-copy-editor.sourceforge.net/ and http://www.screem.org/ are 2 other free tools that run on linux (I haven't used them, personally)
15:02:22 <mchua> pfroehlich: It's a very different dynamic with a larger group - I'm looking forward to the point where we're all actually working on projects
15:02:24 <gary_at_RIT> thanks quaid
15:02:29 <quaid> sure thing
15:02:32 <RITSteve> ok, so bottom line is to use this system you need to hand code or tweak xml to push it to publican which will then spit it out in different rendered formats, html page, pdf, etc?
15:03:47 <ctyler> Question from mchua: what is the general workflow?
15:04:09 <mchua> quaid: and how does this workflow apply to other areas of open source - not just docs, but code? not just Fedora, but other FOSS projects?
15:04:22 <mchua> ("why don't we just email lots of files back and forth?")
15:04:53 <mchua> basically, docs hat off, commarch hat on :)
15:08:22 <Dave_S> "hat off?" "commarch?"
15:08:47 <ctyler> "hat off" -> changing role
15:09:05 <ctyler> "commarch" -> Community Architecture team
15:09:13 <gary_at_RIT> btw, anaconda lost its mnemonics on the keys
15:09:14 <ctyler> "docs" -> documentation team (Fedora)
15:09:26 <gary_at_RIT> at least in F13
15:09:34 <ctyler> gary_at_RIT: in emulation or bare metal?
15:09:50 <Dave_S> TY
15:10:01 <ctyler> mchua: let's at least intro the SoaS topic, and then go into running Sugar
15:10:16 <mchua> ctyler: Yep - I drew a parallel diagram to yours on the board... a teaser for spins later this afternoon.
15:10:19 <gary_at_RIT> ctyler: I was doing a bare hardware install.  No short cut keys for next and such
15:10:30 <mchua> ctyler: basically trying to get the "this is a general process" thing across.
15:10:51 <ctyler> mchua: ok, run with it. I'll boot native SoaS on this laptop while you talk.
15:11:11 <RITSteve> mchua: RHEL on whiteboard = ??
15:11:19 <mchua> RITSteve: We'll get to it after quaid
15:11:32 <ctyler> RHEL == Red Hat Enterprise Version, the commercial downstream from Fedora
15:11:35 <mchua> ctyler: The other thing I want to touch on briefly is edit conflicts, if we have a moment, since some folks hit it
15:11:49 <mchua> RITSteve: ^^ or that works too :)
15:12:02 <ctyler> Yes, I had some folks back out their own patches (patch -R ...) and then apply the other patch
15:12:12 * mchua nods
15:12:20 <mchua> ctyler: I have a wiki edit conflict up here I can show which has a clearer diff
15:12:27 <quaid> http://translate.fedoraproject.org
15:12:33 <quaid> http://transifex.net
15:12:35 <ctyler> mchua: translate.fedoraproject.org on projector?
15:12:48 <RITSteve> mchua: also had issues trying to use other people's patches
15:13:11 <ctyler> quaid: lost you
15:13:12 <quaid> I just dropped
15:13:13 <mchua> ctyler: I'll do diagrams on the board to wrap up workflow, then talk about edit conflicts in the wiki sense, throw it to you, you can talk about in the patch sense, then boot SoaS
15:13:20 * quaid lets ctyler call him back
15:13:24 <mchua> ctyler: and then I can do the sugar demo
15:13:45 <quaid> I can be done with workflow in a few minutes I think
15:13:50 <mchua> quaid: sounds good
15:13:52 <quaid> then hang and help with wiki stuff
15:13:59 <mchua> quaid: we break for lunch at noon and I want to make sure we have enough time for people to actually play with Sugar.
15:14:00 <gary_at_RIT> We going to take a quick break soon?
15:14:05 <quaid> cool
15:14:06 <RITSteve> @mchua:  sugar demo best after lunch? still a lot of patch issues around the table
15:14:22 <ctyler> quaid: you're unregistered, apparently
15:14:34 <quaid> one sec
15:14:37 <ctyler> perhaps we will try and wrap this topic from this end
15:14:53 <quaid> ok, I'm registered I think
15:14:55 <mchua> quaid: ctyler will wrap up in person, but toss in on IRC?
15:15:13 <quaid> ok
15:15:16 <mchua> Chris: We have a lot of folks in the community who are bilingual - but not all of them want to go through the overhead we just did, of making/pushing patches, etc.
15:15:34 <mchua> So Transifex (translate.fedoraproject.org) was created to make it easier to do translations without having to use git, patches, and so forth.
15:15:51 <quaid> +1
15:16:42 <RITSteve> So why not use something like transifex to manage the overall documentation projects to avoid the same issues?
15:18:26 <quaid> that's not what it does
15:18:55 <quaid> transifex is a UI for translations for software as well as content
15:19:16 <quaid> it's more like a Unix tool -- does one set of things well
15:19:26 <quaid> and is made to be hooked in to like a pipeline.
15:20:16 <quaid> mchua: more transcribing?
15:20:50 <ctyler> mchua is talking about the diagram I drew while you were talking, and drawing parallels to Sugar interaction with Fedora
15:20:59 * ctyler reboots into SoaS
15:21:25 <quaid> ok, I'm sure you all will get the gist right if not all the details that I'd just get us lost in :)
15:24:05 <gpollice> walterbender: Is there a web page for Measure that I can actually edit to reflect the changes we made?
15:25:00 <RITSteve> patch
15:27:02 <mchua> gpollice: The Measure webpage is still on the laptop.org wiki, so one thing that might be good to do is port (copy-paste the source) it to the Sugar Labs wiki.
15:27:14 <mchua> gpollice: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Measure - I can help you with it in #sugar if you like.
15:28:32 <gpollice> mchua: Thanks. I was there and wasn't sure that was the right place. I'll wo work on it.
15:30:41 <mchua> #info Chris is now demoing Sugar
15:30:43 <RITSteve> mchua:  typed patch original file new file, returned  **** malformed patch at line 13: 6.
15:32:16 <quaid> btw, Twinkle was weird -- you all were pitched up a whole octave (I reckon with my not good ear)
15:32:40 <quaid> I didn't recognize Chris until I listened to the word inflexion and ignored the pitch; Mel was Very High Up There
15:32:53 * quaid heard his own echo and it sounded semi-normal
15:42:40 <mchua> #link http://activities.sugarlabs.org
15:45:57 <mchua> So, between now and when we get back from lunch, think about what the experience is like - playing with Sugar - and the sorts of things that have caught your attention, that you might want to change.
15:46:13 <mchua> walterbender: I just pointed out mahadev's reset button patch as an example of the scale of project they might be doing
15:46:49 <RITSteve> mchua: a lot of difficulty in this version getting the "box" view to appear.  Hot keys instead of cursor control/
15:46:52 <RITSteve> ?
15:47:02 <mchua> RITSteve: Er... "box view"?
15:47:10 <RITSteve> mchua: frame
15:47:51 <mchua> RITSteve: Hm. Lemme see if I can remember the keyboard shortcut. I thought it was ctrl-F, but I'm not sure.
15:48:14 <mchua> aha!
15:48:16 <mchua> RITSteve: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Keyboard_shortcuts
15:48:18 <mchua> RITSteve: alt-shift-F
15:48:25 <RITSteve> mchua:  not here, but could be a mac thing
15:49:07 <RITSteve> mchua: nope, virtual box grabs the Mac alt key
15:49:46 <mchua> Dang.
15:49:57 <RITSteve> mchua: got it
15:50:00 <mchua> What was it?
15:52:11 <RITSteve> mchua: Mac option key
15:52:40 <Dave_S> My neighborhood screen in SOAS is not showing anyone else.
15:53:08 <Dave_S> It did before I restarted it to change my name.
15:53:45 <mchua> Dave_S: Can you start the Browse Activity and go online?
15:54:10 <Dave_S> ya
15:54:21 <mchua> Dave_S: Ok, so you're online... does the Neighborhood view still not show anyone?
15:55:04 <Dave_S> Nobody still home.  : ))
15:55:21 <mchua> Dave_S: Hm. And you're still connected to ritwpa2?
15:55:47 <Dave_S> ahh I got bumped to RIT
15:56:41 <mchua> Dave_S: that would do it.
15:56:58 <mchua> Dave_S: One of the things that Sugar looks for, when it figures out what neighborhood to put you in, is what AP you're on.
15:57:05 <mchua> That's historical from back when we all ran Sugar on XOs.
15:57:25 <mchua> Because there'd be too many kids in the classroom, and one of the ways you'd split them into subgroups is to have groups of kids connect to different networks
15:57:59 <mchua> So... who's looking for Activity help?
15:58:44 <mchua> (I know we're in the same room, but I'm trying to get y'all used to asking questions here, because in the next 24 hours we're all going to hit the #sugar channel, where folks are in Paraguay, Germany, California, Oregon... and not in this room - and they're the ones who'll be able to answer your questions.)
15:59:03 <MikeLutz-f75d> How can I download more Sugar activities
15:59:13 <mchua> MikeLutz-f75d: awesome :)
15:59:24 <mchua> MikeLutz-f75d: Open the Browse Activity in Sugar - it's the one with the icon that looks like a glob.
15:59:28 <mchua> er, globe.
15:59:35 <mchua> MikeLutz-f75d: Then navigate that to http://activities.sugarlabs.org
15:59:43 <mchua> MikeLutz-f75d: You'll be able to search for Activities there - there are a lot of them.
15:59:52 <ctyler> MikeLutz-f75d: or click on the "Activities" link that's on the browser homepage
16:00:20 <mchua> That works too! ( MikeLutz-f75d  - this is one of the things that also tends to happen when you ask questions on IRC in a public channel... other people overhear and can help give alternative and sometimes better answers.)
16:00:47 <mchua> MikeLutz-f75d: Once you've found an Activity you want to install, you can go to the page for that Activity and you'll see a big "Download" button.
16:00:57 <ctyler> You can start Sugar in fullscreen mode by typing in a terminal: sugar-emulator -f
16:00:57 <mchua> If you click on that, it'll start installing the Activity automatically.
16:01:29 <mchua> You can see all the sugar-emulator options by typing in a terminal: sugar-emulator --help
16:01:51 <mchua> ctyler: Lunchtime!
16:04:19 <ctyler> mmmm, lunch
16:05:01 <mchua> Folks here - in #sugar I'm logging a convo that might look like a convo your students would have with the community.
16:05:29 <MikeLutz-f75d> I downloaded Scratch from the activities, but then it "failed to start"? Any suggestions?
16:06:19 <mchua> nhacbv is a high school student in Arlington, VA who's doing a Sugar coding project
16:06:19 <mchua> and I'm mentoring him
16:06:19 <mchua> so we'll see how he talks, how he gets help, how folks in the channel (including me, but hopefully others over time) guide him.
16:07:12 <mchua> MikeLutz-lunch: Yeah, we'll get to that after lunch when we introduce you folks to the broader Sugar community
16:08:10 <ctyler> mchua: time for you to eat your *breakfast* :-D
16:09:19 <MikeLutz> Ok - how to I automatically include someone's NICK in a message like all you "pros" are doing?
16:13:19 <mchua> MikeLutz-lunch-r: Tab-completion. :) If I type "Mik<TAB>" it automatically guesses who I'm talking to (you) and types your nick in for me.
16:19:13 <RITSteve> mchua: stop working so hard.  Get Lunch :-)
16:19:59 <ganderson> I agree
16:21:25 <mchua> RITSteve: Gotta help student first.
16:21:30 <mchua> See #sugar on projector.
16:58:12 * mchua comes to the realization that she didn't actually eat the parfait she got for breakfast
16:58:17 <mchua> I'll eat that first, then the lunch I got.
17:04:06 <mchua> #topic Teaching moment: getting Bao to ask for help
17:05:05 <mchua> #link https://sites.google.com/a/lv5.org/bvworks/home/working-with-sugarlabs/journalimplementationtoxoirc
17:05:22 <mchua> #link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/581#comment:3
17:05:43 <posse_projector> #link http://sync.in/ep/pad/view/tEc56sE3Uv/latest
17:05:53 <posse_projector> #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2010-June/024716.html
17:06:19 <mchua> #info Bao is a high school student in Virginia trying to work on Sugar Activities this month, for a co-op like program that his high school has.
17:07:04 <mchua> #info He found a ticket to tackle - and then got stuck. I'm going to go through how we got him unstuck. (I should point out here that I actually did *not* know how to write the code he needed - what I was teaching him here was how to ask for help... the community skills you're all learning this week.)
17:07:13 <mchua> (I'll go into this in more detail when everyone is back)
17:13:38 * quaid lurking again
17:15:05 <RITSteve> back
17:20:14 <ganderson> wb MikeLutz-f75d
17:23:52 <ctyler> mchua is talking about her experience working with student over the noonhour -- creating tickets, etc
17:25:53 <quaid> holy cow, that's just happening, cool
17:30:41 <ctyler> quaid: while she grabbed a take-out pizza, the mailing list solved his problem :-)
17:35:06 <mchua> #info Dave asks whether there's a guide on how to write those sorts of emails, mchua suggests that someone at POSSE RIT try drafting what they think one might look like for their blog post tonight ;)
17:35:22 <mchua> #info (if it hits Planet, multiple professors who've guided students in this way before will see it, and they'll likely comment and improve it)
17:35:41 <mchua> #info (same process by which Bao wrote code and got help with code - you can do the same thing to get help writing these sorts of guides)
17:36:39 <mchua> quaid: I can recap for you if you like :) It was *totally* TOSW ftw
17:36:44 <mlutz> Here
17:37:57 <mchua> #info Chris talks about spins and the release cycle
17:38:05 <mlutz> Here's another idea, Mel. You've touched on a boatload of web sites, many having special tools (like EtherPad). What would be nice would be a list of these. Perhaps with a diagram showing how they are related / used.
17:38:25 <mchua> mlutz: Indeed!
17:38:25 <ganderson> mlutz: good idea.  We could add a section to the wiki
17:38:29 * ganderson does just that
17:39:04 <mchua> ganderson: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_RIT#Notes
17:39:06 <mchua> ganderson: beat ya :)
17:39:14 <mchua> mlutz: help us figure out what we're missing :)
17:39:31 <mchua> I'll throw in links when I have spare moments, but right now I'm queueing up for our next exercise
17:39:41 <ganderson> mchua: you don't want to tag it in a new section under glossary?
17:39:48 <mchua> ganderson: your call, it's a wiki ;)
17:43:10 <ganderson> mchua, mlutz: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_RIT#Document_collaboration
17:51:21 <ganderson> hi gary_at_RIT
18:08:33 <posse_projector> #info step 1: get the code.
18:09:16 <posse_projector> #link http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/abacus
18:10:53 <posse_projector> #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Abacus
18:11:54 <posse_projector> #link http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/abacus/repos/posse-mainline
18:12:41 <ndoubleday_> j
18:13:17 <posse_projector> #info In Terminal: cd Activities
18:14:48 <ctyler> #info You're now in the activities directory. Get the code: git://git.sugarlabs.org/abacus/mainline.git
18:15:06 <mchua> #info in terminal: git clone git://git.sugarlabs.org/abacus/posse-mainline.git Abacus.activity
18:15:43 <ctyler> #info If there is no Activities directory, you can create it (in your home directory)
18:15:53 <ctyler> cd ; mkdir Activities ; cd Activities
18:16:06 <ctyler> ^ command to make that directory if you don't have it, and switch into it
18:16:37 <ctyler> Then execute the 'git clone' command (above)
18:17:34 <posse_projector> Once again, all at once, that's...
18:17:41 <posse_projector> cd ; mkdir Activities ; cd Activities
18:17:43 <posse_projector> git clone git://git.sugarlabs.org/abacus/posse-mainline.git Abacus.activity
18:19:20 * mchua encourages people to take a look through the code, see what they can find
18:40:11 <mchua> #info Ctyler explaining ssh keys
18:40:14 <mchua> #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography
18:43:42 <mchua> lmacken, ctyler: the amusing part of ctyler's recap is that my full name actually is "Mallory"
18:44:17 <mchua> for why that's amusing, for those watching... look for the name "Mallory" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_and_Bob
18:44:41 <mchua> (for those remote, Chris was explaining cryptography by having me be a pretend malicious attacker in between a message between himself and Steve.)
18:46:13 <mchua> #info To create an ssh key, the command is "ssh-keygen"
18:46:22 <mchua> #info Default values for everything will work
18:51:09 <RITSteve> keygen locking up
18:56:08 <ianweller> mchua: that alice and bob article is interesting.
18:57:43 <posse_projector> #link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/query?status=accepted&status=assigned&status=new&status=reopened&component=Measure&order=priority&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=component
18:57:55 <posse_projector> #link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/query
18:58:58 <posse_projector> #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/SoaS_Activity_Criteria
18:59:57 <mihaela> pfroehlich: how is it going?
19:07:05 <mchua> #info Project idea 1: RIT Remix (and remix documentation/process cleanup)
19:07:21 <mchua> #info Project idea 2: Measure hacking (the only coding project we've got, actually)
19:07:49 <mchua> #info Project idea 3: Get a Sugar Activity through the SoaS inclusion/feature process (release management, documentation)
19:08:27 <mchua> We're wrapping up for the day.
19:08:37 <mchua> #info Question: What do you do if you're starting a FOSS project from scratch?
19:10:18 <mchua> #info Answer: Read Karl Fogel's book.
19:10:22 <mchua> #link http://producingoss.com/
19:14:03 <posse_projector> #info End of the day, thanks all!
19:14:05 <posse_projector> #endmeeting