13:16:03 <mchua> #startmeeting
13:16:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 29 13:16:03 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:16:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:16:08 <mchua> Logging for TOSS 2009 @ Seneca
13:16:14 <mchua> #topic introductions
13:16:23 <mchua> Dru Lavigne
13:16:26 <mchua> Dave Humphrey
13:16:28 <mchua> Frank Hecker
13:16:33 <mchua> Greg DeKoenigsberg
13:16:34 <mchua> Karlie Robinson
13:16:59 <mchua> Michael Adeyeye
13:17:00 <mchua> Chris Tyler
13:17:01 <mchua> Mel Chua
13:17:52 <mchua> Gabor Laszlo
13:17:57 <mchua> Andrew Smith
13:17:59 <mchua> Luis Ibanez
13:18:20 <mchua> Fardad Soleimanloo
13:19:33 <mchua> David Kitzanc (sp?)
13:19:40 <mchua> #topic agenda for the day
13:19:47 <mchua> ctyler laying out the agenda for the day.
13:20:38 <ctyler> mchua: perhaps this should be in #teachingopensource
13:21:43 <mchua> ctyler: meetbot isn't in that channel yet
13:22:25 <mchua> agenda:
13:22:33 <mchua> * current initiatives and projects (at schools, at .orgs, .coms)
13:22:44 <mchua> * current global state of the teaching open source (direction, what's needed)
13:22:52 <mchua> * teachingopensource.org (history, state, projects)
13:23:00 <mchua> * future direction / where do we go from here
13:23:15 <mchua> #topic what's happening at schools
13:23:16 <mchua> David giving his update
13:24:18 <mchua> gregdek: log so far at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/2009-10-29/teachingopensource-posse.2009-10-29-13.16.log.txt
13:24:22 <mchua> actually,
13:24:22 <mchua> #link http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/2009-10-29/teachingopensource-posse.2009-10-29-13.16.log.txt
13:27:35 <mchua> hey t0mmyw!
13:27:49 <mchua> David talking about HFOSS right now
13:27:50 <mchua> #link http://hfoss.org/
13:28:04 <mchua> Greg asking about how a new project/institution comes on board HFOSS
13:40:50 <gregdek> Dave H. asks: how do we ensure that orgs like HFOSS and TOS don't end up competing with one another for resources?  General discussion.
13:43:46 <gregdek> Karlie talking about how OLPC and "teaching open source" started at RIT.
13:44:49 <ctyler> Steve Jacobs talking about Service Learning and Sugar activity development at RIT
13:59:20 <gregdek> Karlie and Steve continue to talk about Sugar activity and development.  Considering a POSSE for RIT.
14:06:25 <mchua> Michael talking about his work.
14:06:30 <mchua> He's working towards his PhD
14:07:38 <mchua> hey, spevack.
14:08:19 <mchua> we're getting a preview of http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2009/node/144
14:08:45 <mchua> Working with (Mozilla stuff, it sounds like?) at Cape Town for the 2nd time now.
14:09:31 <ctyler> Bringing his experience into some of the classes he's teaching, bringing Mozilla, MobiSense, PJC (?)
14:11:00 <mchua> Michael points out that using Windows as a development environment is also OK, you can contribute to FOSS without using (for whatever reason) Linux.
14:12:36 <mchua> Question from Chris: Are the students you're working with the first wave of FOSS users/contribs in South Africa? or have others gone before?
14:13:20 <mchua> Answer: certainly not as part of formal studies, if any participate it would be from personal interest
14:13:41 <mchua> some students have developed things they've released under open licenses, this has happened before
14:14:01 <mchua> but mostly there's not much (just a few isolated examples, it sounds lke)
14:14:04 <mchua> like
14:14:37 <mchua> Greg: every OSS dev I know is self-taught
14:14:55 <mchua> if the only way to learn open source is to teach yourself, that severely limits the number of people who can learn open source
14:15:02 <mchua> on the one hand, that means that folks we do get are extremely motivated
14:15:15 <mchua> on the other hand, it's a missed opportunity to get the rest
14:16:01 <mchua> and someday companies that don't want open source to live will start to counteract it
14:16:06 <mchua> Karlie: *tells story about exactly that*
14:18:12 <mchua> Michael: Before South Africa, came from Nigeria
14:18:51 <mchua> There is a project translating FOSS software packages into African languages
14:19:54 <gregdek> http://translate.org.za/
14:20:10 <gregdek> And Frank Hecker notes that much of the work around the world involves localization.
14:20:27 * mchua muses that there might actually be another filter coming into play here for engineers and FOSS contributors both; those who contribute speak English (great!) and English is the language of instruction (great!) but only those who can manage to speak English can join "that world" (...not great!)
14:20:53 <mchua> s/speak/read-and-write, really
14:20:54 <mchua> which is often easier than speaking for many.
14:21:28 <gregdek> s/often/usually?
14:21:36 <gregdek> Among likely computer users, anyway.
14:23:01 <mchua> So here's a question: do you need to speak English to join the FOSS world? (You can replace that with any number of criteria - "do you need to code?" etc.)
14:23:12 <mchua> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html seems to indicate yes.
14:23:21 <mchua> It was also first written in 2005.
14:23:28 <mchua> I think the world has changed considerably since.
14:24:25 <mchua> Just because current FOSS contributors fit $profile doesn't mean we should focus on recruiting /only/ more of $profile. Plenty of non-represented groups to tap as well.
14:24:29 <hecker> Mozilla meetup at Maker Faire in Ghana: http://www.davidajao.com/blog/2009/08/17/mfa-2009-the-mozilla-team/
14:24:58 <mchua> for those who have just joined, current logs are at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/2009-10-29/
14:25:26 <mchua> Stories from different geo regions - South America, Eastern Europe different from North America
14:25:43 <mchua> NA folks can afford to spend a couple hours of free time on FOSS stuff
14:25:47 <gregdek> https://fedoraproject.org/membership-map/
14:25:57 <gregdek> A map of members in Fedora.  A handful in Africa.
14:26:45 <t0mmyw> neat map. looks like Fedora not very popular in Russia
14:27:12 * mchua points out that not all NA folks have that free time; some kids have to babysit or work or etc. and can't find spare moments to participate
14:27:33 <mchua> benefit of making it a school assignment is that then those kids also have the time (because it is required for school)
14:29:11 * mchua stole that thought from Mikell Taylor, Olin '06, btw - first comment on http://blog.melchua.com/2006/12/03/hackstar-20-not-just-white-males/
14:29:40 <ctyler> Michael mentioning Meltwater school
14:30:11 <mchua> (not a gender thing, more a "people who don't fit usual profile of those represented in $majority" thing, but the two are correlated in this field)
14:30:20 <mchua> Greg talking about translation communities in Fedora
14:30:37 <mchua> Working to strengthen that infrastructure in Fedora, but wonder if there is more we can do
14:30:43 <mchua> Chris notes that Transifex is a tool that helps lower that barrier
14:30:58 <mchua> http://transifex.org
14:33:55 <mchua> Dru talking about certifications
14:34:11 <mchua> vendors spend millions of $ on launching certs, don't expect to recoup those costs for 3-4 years
14:34:21 <mchua> They need to get subject matter experts to vouch
14:35:54 <mchua> Greg talking about RHCE cert @RH; reason it's a good test is that it crushes poeple, and you actually have to fix a broken system to pass
14:36:22 <mchua> Chris: Dru, what type of exam is yours?
14:36:34 <mchua> Dru: mixed - some practical, some knowledge
14:37:03 <mchua> Seneca overview time
14:37:18 <mchua> wait, more from Dru (yay)
14:37:27 <mchua> we do have a masters program of (something) in tech
14:37:33 <mchua> not much at the undergrad level
14:37:51 <mchua> Masters requirement: work experience in tech world needed for admission
14:37:57 <ctyler> Dru talking about the TIM program at Carleton
14:38:11 <mchua> Required to graduate: some research component of open source
14:38:17 <mchua> so not TOS, but there is a FOSS component
14:39:11 <mchua> Update from Luis
14:39:17 <ctyler> on RPI
14:40:29 <mchua> 30-40 students
14:40:41 <mchua> in elective class on sw development
14:40:54 <mchua> students do projects, some (all?) are FOSS
14:41:06 <mchua> (I missed that part, can anyone fill in?)
14:41:14 <mchua> elective not about teaching how to program, but teaching ways of doing things
14:41:48 <mchua> http://www.rpi.edu/
14:42:14 <mchua> Laughing about how people mix up RPI and RIT
14:42:30 <mchua> Chris: Do students in the course work within a community, or studying from outside one?
14:42:51 * mchua wonders how you determine whether something is "inside" or "outside" a community - can see activities where some people would say in, some would say out
14:43:15 <mchua> Luis: not really within
14:45:12 <mchua> Karlie talking about SCOPRE
14:45:15 <mchua> er, SCORE
14:46:03 <mchua> She runs her entire business on FOSS tools, and for people in the business world, that's something that does not even cross their minds
14:46:14 <mchua> going to trade shows, etc. and showing that it's possible opens up minds
14:47:36 <mchua> a lot of times when she talks about TOS, people come up and say "oh, you mean for business students!"
14:47:46 <mchua> so maybe we should teach non-CS students too
14:48:19 <mchua> she is using the term "publicly licensed software" instead of "open source" to talk with business people to avoid the long "now I have to explain code" trap
14:48:40 <mchua> example: open licensed web designs, putting up a website on the cheap
14:50:11 <mchua> another selling point for businesses (and therefore business students): security
14:54:38 <mchua> Chris updating on what's happening at Seneca
14:58:46 <ctyler> Fardad talking about teaching 3rd semester C++ students to work in using Open Source methodology
15:04:00 <mchua> ctyler: Er... what was said right before gregdek started his current reply?
15:04:52 <fardad_at_TOSS> http://zenit.senecac.on.ca/wiki/index.php/OOP344
15:06:09 <ctyler> The comment was that students are working on larger codebases than they have previously
15:07:31 <mchua> Thanks.
15:08:19 <mchua> (and for the record/log, the response from Greg was "that's the only thing students care about.")
15:10:32 <mchua> Problem: how do you grade open source wokr?
15:10:34 <mchua> work?
15:11:10 <mchua> Fardad had a solution that I didn't catch ( gregdek, what was it that Fardad should tell HFOSS? )
15:11:21 * mchua --> rsi break
15:11:42 <ctyler> It's easier to mark open source :-)
15:11:53 <ctyler> It's all in the open, you know who did what
15:12:08 <KarlieRobinson> the info was that his course is easier because he can see who actually does the work
15:12:37 <KarlieRobinson> version control
15:12:42 <gregdek> Fardad says "grading open source is easier when you introduce version control".
15:13:18 <ctyler> ...and wikis and blogs (w/ planet)
15:15:04 * mchua back
15:15:15 <mchua> We need to make a list of these kinds of "Small Investment, Big Payoff" sorts of things
15:15:21 <gregdek> Yep.
15:15:58 <mchua> #info: Small Investment: introduce VCS - Big Payoff: easy grading because you can see, with a fine grain, exactly what an individual student did.
15:16:03 * mchua <3 meetbot
15:16:46 <mchua> Chris talking about elective class @ Seneca
15:16:50 <mchua> on open source development
15:16:59 <mchua> hoping that Fardad's class will feed some students into it
15:17:08 <mchua> Dave expanding on that theme
15:17:30 <mchua> Fardad's class is "learn object oriented C++" (...using open source tools/code/techniques)
15:17:38 <mchua> Chris/Dave's class is "contribute to OSS"
15:19:41 <mchua> mindshift: "teach what you know" --> "let's get people involved in an area we don't know!" (ex: Dave doesn't know gcc hacking, but his students are doing it)
15:19:54 <mchua> what Dave does know is how to learn within OSS, how to guide students to learn that
15:20:15 <mchua> hey, rharrison!
15:20:26 <rharrison> hello
15:25:31 <mchua> rharrison: the log so far is at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/teachingopensource-posse/2009-10-29/
15:25:34 <mchua> it's long
15:27:58 <gregdek> The question: how do we create more Dave Humpreys?
15:28:49 <gregdek> Steve Jacobs says: 1. Give us more mchuas -- gateways into projects.  2. Identify projects that profs care about.
15:31:20 <mchua> ...it's like frontline helpdesk support, almost. We need more somebodies standing by the phone.
15:32:44 <mchua> Karlie describes how one can escalate "please get in touch with this developer" up the "people who know people" chain in a project.
15:33:42 <mchua> Greg describing a student in Steve's class who, from the outside, looks less productive (isn't writing code, is making a design and asking for feedback)
15:34:00 <mchua> but he's going about things the right way; he's figuring out the use case, he's asking for thoughts...
15:34:09 <mchua> he says "ah, I just have feedback from this guy named Walter"
15:34:13 <mchua> and everyone else has running code
15:34:29 <mchua> Greg explains that "walter" is "walter bender, head of sugar labs"
15:34:36 <mchua> and the student is in mild shock. yay teachable moments!
15:35:12 <mchua> how do we expose these kinds of contributions as valuable?
15:39:16 <mchua> LUNCH BREAK
15:39:16 <mchua> #endmeeting