Meeting started at 2026-06-03 14:07:36 UTC

The Meeting name is 'Fedora Council Meeting'

Space in front of `!`

!hi

Fabio Valentini: Fabio Valentini (decathorpe) - he / him / his

!hi

Petr Bokoc: Petr Bokoč (pbokoc)

!hi

Akashdeep Dhar / আকাশদীপ ধর: Akashdeep Dhar (t0xic0der) - he / him / his

!hi

!hi

!hi

Jef Spaleta: Jef Spaleta (jspaleta) - he / him / his

Aoife Moloney: Aoife Moloney (amoloney)

nimbinatus: Laura Santamaria (nimbinatus) - she / her / hers

sorry was delayed in another meeting

no worries; you posted you'd be late :)

Petr Bokoc++

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!hi

bookwar: Aleksandra Fedorova (bookwar) - she / her / hers

I am a responsible, irresponsible time-management person

thank you Petr Bokoc for kicking it off!

Petr Bokoc:++

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Np, but someone else run this please, I have a pair of techs at my apartment trying to get my internet to work right now :D

!hi

Justin Wheeler: Justin Wheeler (jflory7) - he / him / his

Sorry I'm late!

Im opening this out to all of you as Im still getting up to speed on whats pressing vs whats not for council. is there a ticket in the discussion column that we need to talk about first?

Just an update on the Innovation Lifecycle. I believe general Council consensus is we start the formal proposal process after Flock on this

None of them seem particularly urgent

That was what I remember (re innovation lifecycle)

depending on the outcome of elections you might need to give new council members some time :)

Ironically, I am not at my house while techs showed up to dig a fiber line in a place where they are going to cut power at the entire house… I am distracted for 4-5 more mins but reading as I can

After flock is expansively interpreted

!proposal for this ticket: No immediate action from council. This will be proposed to the Fedora Community post Flock sometime. A draft is currently available for review and feedback at <this link>

^^ that ok for that one?

Link is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jspaleta/Drafts/FedoraInnovationLifecycle I think

+1

Are we going to have a dedicated sessions for it at Flock? I feel like we are doing that thing again that we trying to follwo the formal process, but not building the context in the community in advance

ill be talking about it in my time slot

Sounds like a good candidate for the proposals slot that we have during Flock?

+1

There also is an open discussion here: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/draft-council-proposal-for-the-fedora-innovation-lifecycle/190996

+1

my understanding is that were not following any process for this one, and rather just opening a formal conversation to make this a process itself

+1

+1

Just for awareness on the timing of things 😛

"formal conversation" means proposal with the intent to vote, right? so it is not really a _conversation_ already, it is a "defense" kind of thing.

(the meeting me, Aoife, and Jef were late from was the Flock planning meeting)

oh, I didnt see this interpretation :/

Maybe I am seeing it wrong.

We can take this to the council channel after the meeting. So we can get ducks in a row a bit on the schedule change.

bookwar: My hope is that some face-time at Flock will be useful to build the context and figure out what comes next after Flock. I think there is a pending conversation that maybe Initiatives need to go back to the drawing board, and this likely fits into that too

ok Ill add in no action needed from this meeting then in the statement and we will try to figure out how to surface this proposal as much as possible over the next few weeks/months for more awareness

Of course, not everything is decided and done at Flock, but in-person context-building in the hallway track is arguably what people value the most from Flock, judging from the post-event survey

Aoife Moloney: good plan

My proposal here: after flock do an article or a recorded intro session which will focus on the *problem* not on the proposed solution. So it can be read or watched separately from the proposal to solve it.

From what I idea I gathered since the last week's conversations, was this not supposed to (loosely speaking) take initiatives' place? Correct me if I am mistaken.

I don't think anything is decided on what will replace Initiatives yet, other than we need to do a double-take, I think

(hi. I am sorry, we are in the middle of the Python 3.15 rebuild and I forgot about the meeting. will read up)

I think we often miss this step of introducing the problem before introducing a solution to it. So I would try this time to do it in two steps with visible gap between them.

Just an idea to try.

it was never intended to take its place. It was originally intended to put the intent of initiatives work into a larger framework that had more explicit stages that included an experimental stage...before you would even thing about doing an iniitiative..

bookwar: I tend to agree, although probably not something we will solve before Flock

But maybe we can spend some time at Flock figuring out how to do this better

Justin Wheeler: yes, this is a post-Flock thing, defintely

ive left us some room in the agreement to make sure we do those steps bookwar , so keep us all accountable please :p

And also it should target people who were not present at Flock

The clarification helps supplement the reading up that I need to get to.

This ☝️

the first public lifecycle proposal goes back to feb..well before the current discussion of sunsetting initiatives. The lifecycle proposal as it exists in its 2nd public draft.. was drafted expecting initiatives to act as curation stage. If we sunset inititives the curation stage will need to be drafted much more explicitly because i won't be able to reference the initiative process as a drop in example as a curation stage

lets workshop that over in the council meeting room

OR EVEN BETTER

the discussion post :)

whats needed here? Seems like the mods are really on top of their stuff in discourse so is it just council wanted to read them before publishing?

If I understand correctly here - there is no actual request to the council. Forum folks operate more or less autonomously and there is no issue we have to address as Council. They do inform us about of the operations and it would be nice for the Council to be familiar with it, but no need for gatekeeping.

There is an old council ticket that moderation guidance reads on. I brought the ticket to the attention of the mods

There is one, from what I read but we have withheld deciding on it since the previous term (and, of course, this term). I am reading the asks from Chris (py0xc3) specifically from the Discussion thread.

is there anything they needed to include from tht older one that they havent?

OK!

Sorry, I was in a distracted moment

Not so, IMHO. If something does fall through the crack then I trust it would be brought by the moderators, as long as it ends up being a pressing matter so we can work on what we have here.

imho, if there is no some active disagreement which Council needs to resolve, we don't need to interrupt the work of the Fedora moderators "just in case"

There is likely some oversight needed here because of tension in the community around moderation. I think it might be _wise_ for the Council and the Discussion moderators to collaborate and agree on a first version of these rules, because it has high likelihood to be pulled into other sub-communities we use. There is not a requirement for Council to sign off on this, and the old moderation guidelines ticket itself ties into work that Marie Nordin was doing with the Council as an extension of the Code of Conduct modernization work a few years ago.

can we just ack the ticket and close then? I think they hve done their homework

I think the only ask here is that Council review the guidance and if we have consensus we make it part of Council policy documentation. I believe this is similar to how CoC amendments work

have we done ours?

I never had the capacity to lead on the moderation guidelines as Marie was doing before Red Hat unscrupulously laid her off, but that's also why the work she was doing at RH as a Code of Conduct Specialist was never backfilled since 2022

I do wonder, should we maybe try to make Forum moderators more visible in the Mindshare? Have a representative seat the same like FESCo members have in the Council?

so if the request is to review, and the ticket is open (currently) 2 months, can we decide on what we are going to do please?

I am realizing there is a lot of unsaid context now for this ticket though, and it is all confusing, and the recent Fedora Discussion guidelines that have come up is why we are discussing this ticket again at all. I guess it would be fine to close and reopen with something more specific, but it is a little messy right now

I like this idea. Some kind of representation would be useful to ensure we're all aligned

Community moderators are sorely underrepresented in our community governance at the moment

I guess _that_ is the heart of the issue now as I see it

But I don't know what to do about it

At least, not while my brain is spinning so hard on Flock

so is this an action for council to follow up on? Support community mods better in governance spaces, eg Mindshare?

But that is an implementation detail for a longer term plan.

+1. I wonder how would they help either of the pillars of recognition, events or ambassadorship.

and does that satisfy the ticket ask?

I would say my vote is to say the current guidelines are good, close the ticket, and monitor for conflict. It's not like they're written in stone

I would support a new ticket that leaves room for this as a follow-up, because I think that is the issue in 2026

+1

And find a way to add mods to governance

The moderation guidelines is not really the issue at hand

(any more)

+1

vote, enshrine as Council policy in the council docs repo.

Bring it Mindshare? But I mean, look at the COuncil, we have elected seats but we have also reserved seats. No one said that Mindsahre can not change its rules to have some reserved seats. If there is a good reason, the rules can be changed

I'm not sure we actually want moderation guidelines enshrined as policy due to differences in platforms we moderate, but this is not the right time to discuss here (and why we need mods in governance)

Bring it to Mindshare? But I mean, look at the COuncil, we have elected seats but we have also reserved seats. No one said that Mindsahre can not change its rules to have some reserved seats. If there is a good reason, the rules can be changed

Mindshare revamped their charter more around events than broad community representation. Giving mods a seat at the table for event budget is likely not the solution

Bring it to Mindshare? But I mean, look at the Council, we have elected seats but we have also reserved seats. No one said that Mindsahre can not change its rules to have some reserved seats. If there is a good reason, the rules can be changed

Stay tuned at the Mindshare session at Flock, Akashdeep Dhar / আকাশদীপ ধর has nice slides 😛

Kinda have collective "minds" (Get it?) homework this but on the surface, it makes sense.

I might actually open a ticket on the Mindshare tracker to have folks think about this.

Let's not bikeshed too much, eh? The ticket is about moderation guidelines for Discussions. We think they're good. Let's do that. And then open tickets where appropriate/a Discussion post for further discussion on the other topics.

We can discuss there but with the heavy focus on events and contributor recognition, I am not sure how mods getting votes on event budget and prioritizing what badges to give will be the way to drive this forward

If we dont enshrine it a explicit documented policy.. we don't setup a mechanism by which amendments get reviewed

I'll take this action just to write something down because a lot of this is complicated and historical

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Aoife Moloney: I think we can close this ticket, it is old and the context is all weird because it is old and muddled with old and new things

Sorry for being a bit scatter-brained right now, this botched fiber install at home and Flock actions are not having me show up as organized for this meeting's topics as I would like to be

!proposal: The council feel the current moderation guidelines for discourse are fine to publish. Justin Wheeler will open and follow up with another ticket on how community moderators are represented in the Fedora Community separately

+1

+1

+1

+1

+1

nimbinatus:++

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thank you for your help keeping us on track!

yw!

final one, and what progress we are making 😍

(On another completely offtopic bikeshedding matter, I am going to start referring to discourse as Forum, because honestly both "discussion" and Discourse are bad names)

Sorry Aiofe :)

I really want to see us get through all of our tickets 😂

~OMG yes! I couldnt agree more!!

Just use Disc Horse instead of Discourse

ah lads, were so close! Dont give into the silliness!

bookwar: You don't mean https://forums.fedoraforum.org/forum.php do you? 😛

Quick! Post the next one!!

`/s`

so, what are we waiting on for this one to be closed?

Oh, shoot

Did I not do my action item

I think I had one and I didn't do it even though we talked about this privately

I feel bad

🚢

Nope, I didn't

Ughhhh

were waiting on Justin then :p

We _did_ have a private topic and I even wrote a comment draft somewhere

s/topic/discussion/

We agreed to it, I think

SMH

This is just a re-action and close for me, and shame shame shame

its ok, can we remind ppl what the agreement was again? (ppl being me)

I need to remind myself as well

😛

@action @jflory7 Do your job `/s`

Email subject: "Proposal and Next Steps from Ticket #563 Discussion (Feedback Deadline: EOD Today)"

Found it on council-private

Actually

That's the basic response we discussed

I just need to draft that up into the ticket

My action item still applies, I'll ticket-ify this

LGTM

sorry i ddnt wait for a vote on that one, I dont think it needed it

Im going to set open floor now for any other stuff

Any Flock preparations needed?

CHAOS

(sorry, just had to get that out)

id like to circle back to the topic on initiative process

(sorry, just had to get that out in the focus on tickets)

I don't know if someone has been actioned to own the Flock panel. We have chatted about it a lot but it might be nice for a clear owner

I think Aoife is moderating but that can be different from topic planning

MIght we throw Aoife Moloney at the deep end? /s

(most of the Council panel will be Q&A, that much was clear)

Im moderating FESCo, but I can do council too

Ohhh

can you elaborate a bit?

we mentioned (I use we in the general term here) that the lifecycle thing will impact that one

I think thanks to the scheduling changes... my FPL segment leads into the panel discussion

so whatever i say.. is gonna impact that one

lets talk about the initiative process a little more here before we close up as we have had a few private discussions on the initiative process so it'd be good to bring this out front

It will also impact the Council titself heavily, because currently initiative framework is essentially how we make the Council

I want to scrap it

everyone really needs to brush up on their curling strategy analogies.. or its gonna be awkward

My hair is naturally straight

We likely need to have this as an async discussion somehow, in our global timezone sprawl

(sorry, I am really sassy today)

Jef says words, people bring their pitchforks and come for us all 😄 `/s/`

:p

I want to scrap Initiatives now too

I just don't have a clear answer on what comes next

I know have already done `sudo dnf install curl` (Quickly hides)

Aoife Moloney: Is any of the Initiatives talk actionable before Flock?

I think we agree that 1) current initiave framework not working as intended. 2) it is confusing to the community what _is_ actually intended

+1

See now I get where my confusion about the "replacement" hailed from. We had a similar discussion around this.

Not sure if it was the private chat or the public chat but there was one, for sure 😂

+1

👋 so, as someone newer to the community than a lot of folks here... can we talk about what's wrong?

(we can move to another meeting room if y'all are still busy)

this is definitely a problem, so I want to be clear that we should scrap the initiatives process *as is* and find a better/more suitable replaccement that allows council to have a better framework for decision making and strategic discussions & planning

Let's move :)

council members will be getting an outline of the topics im gonna cover in my FPL session friday, that should help frame expectations on panel discussion. If council members have a specific thing they want me to talk about in my session as a lead in to the panel... let me know via email or pings

Also, hey Michel Lind ☘ UTC+1 📛! 👋

That has to be in the channel t hough. Time's up.

We'll move to #council:fedoraproject.org :)

LEaving now Michel Lind ☘ UTC+1 📛 !