<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:31:25
!startmeeting fedora-ai-ml-sig
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:31:26
Meeting started at 2026-09-24 16:31:25 UTC
<@meetbot:fedora.im>
16:31:26
The Meeting name is 'fedora-ai-ml-sig'
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:31:32
!topic welcome
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:31:34
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:31:35
tflink: Tim Flink (tflink)
<@gordonmessmer:fedora.im>
16:31:40
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:31:43
Gordon Messmer: Gordon Messmer (gordonmessmer)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:31:47
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:31:48
Justin Wheeler: Justin Wheeler (jflory7) - he / him / his
<@xanderlent:fedora.im>
16:32:13
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:32:13
Alexander Lent: Alexander Lent (xanderlent) - he / him / his
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:34:25
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:34:28
Clément Verna: Clement Verna (cverna) - he / him / his
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:34:37
ok, let's get this party started
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:34:52
!topic Announcement: The AI/ML SIG docs site is officially launched!
<@copperi:fedora.im>
16:34:58
!hi
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
16:34:58
copperi: Jan Kuparinen (copperi)
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:35:01
!link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/ai/
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:35:26
Woot! Thanks everyone for your feedback into launching the renewed home page and site organization.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:35:35
I have more on this but it can come at the end to discuss 🙂
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:36:10
we don't have many topics today so either way works unless it's more related to your second topic
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:37:12
The discussion topic was about the docs site. Could be now or later, either is fine for me!
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:37:18
my concern is that the namespace is "ai" instead of matching everything else I'm aware of which is "ai-ml"
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:37:19
And the Wiki page
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:37:47
We can amend that. It was probably just a hang-up from when the site was set up a while back earlier this year
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:38:21
!idea Docs site URL is `/ai/` but should be `/ai-ml/`. This can be changed, but requires an infra proxy redirect rule to be set up.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:38:45
!action @jflory7 Change SIG docs component name in Antora, create PR for proxy redirect rule from old URL to new URL
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:38:55
Maybe a side topic but about documentation, I opened https://forge.fedoraproject.org/docs/tickets/issues/64 in the docs tracker, curious if people have opinions
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:39:15
out of curiosity, does it really need a redirect? how long as it been live?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:39:42
Clément Verna: I saw that, I am very curious! But I think this is at the top-most level for all docs in Fedora.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:40:10
tflink: Maybe not but I see no reason why not. It is a quick change to do and I know where to do it in the infra Ansible repo.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:40:22
The site went live in March.
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:40:49
either way, just thinking of ways to save effort
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:41:02
The main topic I wanted to cover was about the Fedora Wiki page, and getting to better understand current workflows for adding and editing data there.
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:41:28
ok, shall we get through the two quick items before diving into that one?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:41:30
There are a number of reasons for why the info now in the Wiki would be better served in the docs site, but this will take some transitioning, both the technical migration of the data, but also human habits and a PR workflow for changes
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:41:34
or not
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:41:37
OK sure, works for me!
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:41:47
Sorry, wasn't sure if we were launching into this or waiting until theend
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:41:49
!topic Fedora Docs site update: Wiki content migration
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:41:51
Sorry, wasn't sure if we were launching into this or waiting until the end
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:42:02
Alright then, let's do it 🙂
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:42:07
Justin Wheeler: Yes, and no. IMO it's top level for all docs and then top level for each groups (council, releng, ai-ml, etc ...)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:42:17
!link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/AI-ML
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:42:44
Clément Verna: I wonder if it is worthwhile to come up with a way for each docs component to have its own, or if it is warranted to have a single, top-level `llms.txt` only
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:42:57
So, on the wiki page—
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:43:40
I see trix is the #1 editor on the wiki page and he sent his regards for not being able to make the meeting. So, will definitely need to follow up with him. But I also see the rest of y'all in the edit history too 🙂
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:43:59
I am wondering how I could be helpful and useful in making the transition
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:44:09
personally, I don't care a whole lot about wiki vs. docs but as you say, Tom Rix has the most edits in the wiki
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:44:25
Justin Wheeler: Don't want to derail the current topic, let's chat about it after :-)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:44:50
Realistically, I think there are two things to consider:
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:45:25
1. Shared review workflow: We move to a PR-driven workflow, and need to review changes. Need to decide whether we are comfortable with commits direct to `main` or if a PR review is required for all changes.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:46:19
2. Breaking down content: The Wiki page is a mono-page with a lot of useful info; the existing content would be broken up and divided into new pages in the relevant Antora module (i.e., the main things in the charter and in the sidebar nav of the docs site)
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:46:42
I can help with #2 but I'll definitely want feedback on breaking things up
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:46:59
Also, there is some content which could probably be deprecated now, like the "get involved" content since that exists in the docs site now
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:47:46
I could begin cleaning up content off the Wiki which is already present in the Docs site, but the packaging section is the one which needs the most thought, I guess.
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:47:51
The doc page is probably easier to find from the main docs.fp.o page
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:48:05
Yep, and it also benefits from SEO magic to rank in search engines
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:48:46
Unless folks have questions, I guess I am looking for tacit approval to begin migrating content from the Wiki to the Docs site as PRs. Long-term, I'd like to redirect the wiki page altogether to the Docs site, once all the content is migrated.
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:49:28
I'm not crazy about making that decision when Tom Rix isn't present since I think he has been the primary author of the wiki stuff
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:50:16
OK, that's fair. I was going to open a ticket about this too, but if y'all have questions or input on the direction, it is welcome 🙂
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:50:43
Well I guess the migration would happen via PRs where Tom Rix would be able to review the content?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:50:44
I was going to shape the ticket objective based on how this meeting discussion went
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:50:53
or do you think he would object just migrating?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:51:12
Yeah, that's true too – I won't be blowing away Wiki content until it is committed to the docs site
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:51:13
honestly, not sure. it wasn't clear from the one thing he said earlier today in matrix and I don't want to assume
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:51:48
I can outline the general approach when I open the ticket, in terms of what steps I anticipate happening when. And then we can discuss later when Tom is also back.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:52:23
But it doesn't sound like we are rejecting the intent, so I can begin putting together a plan/outline for this work
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:52:28
I'd like to spend October working on this
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:52:37
I know that the cost:benefit for hosting the wiki has been pretty heavily cost biased for a while and I'm a little surprised that it hasn't been made read-only already
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:53:49
I'm +0 on the migration but I don't think moving forward is wise until Tom Rix has had a chance to provide input
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:53:56
The Wiki is where useful information goes to die in Fedora 😅 😂 At the same time, a lot of the Fedora Docs publishing pipeline are not obvious to get started with
<@copperi:fedora.im>
16:54:00
so wiki is more expensive ?
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:54:07
it attracts spammers
<@copperi:fedora.im>
16:54:27
ok
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:54:27
and spammers are not cheap to deal with
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:54:58
!agreed No final decisions without @trix input, as he is the person who has landed the most edits on the SIG wiki page to-date. @jflory7 will open a new ticket to outline a plan for this migration effort.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:55:09
!info @jflory7 would like to start and finish this work in October
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:55:11
if we do migrate, I'm leaning towards not enforcing the PR-only route for now. we're still a small group and I foresee people having issues getting approval for small changes
<@cverna_:matrix.org>
16:55:16
need to step away for family time o/, thanks all
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:55:26
I lean the same way TBH
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:55:36
See ya Clément Verna, thanks for being here! I also merged your PR!
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:55:36
the ethos so far as been "only add extra steps when they're needed" and forcing the PR-only workflow at this time seems to go against that
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:56:21
the counter to that is the level of discomfort that would come if there was a situation that made the PR-only workflow needed
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:56:35
I think big changes should go through PRs, but many/most changes won't be big changes
<@copperi:fedora.im>
16:56:49
i agree
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:57:06
yeah, definitely but I think the root question is a "force vs. trust" for when to use PRs
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:57:20
either way, I'd say "trust" for now
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:57:34
We could agree to a best-effort basis for sending big changes through as PRs and small changes as direct commits. Should this becomes challenged or problematic, we can revisit
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:57:36
just pointing out the potential downside to not enforcing PRs from the start
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:58:12
Yeah, true. But I think with our current size, it is workable that way
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:58:19
We can always revisit
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:58:33
I'll put this as a discussion detail in the ticket so we can also cover that part with Tom
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:58:46
makes sense to me but I still want to defer any final decisions on the migration until Tom has had a chance to give input
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:59:12
Yep, nothing is being decided here right now, but it will shape what I put into the ticket later
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:59:14
!info proposal to migrate from the wiki to docs will be moved to a ticket, final decision will be later
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
16:59:52
I think I have all I need for now. Hopefully we can make a decision before October gets too far along, this will be the best opportunity for me to dedicate work time toward this
<@tflink:fedora.im>
16:59:59
ok, anything else on this topic?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:00:05
I'm set
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:00:16
ok, moving on
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:00:28
!topic ROCm 10.0 update starting
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:00:42
@trix isn't here so I'll do my best to cover the bits I think he was referring to
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:01:52
ROCm 10.0 (the next release after ROCm 7) has been released upstream and is the first major release after a shift in upstream's development flow
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:02:17
the big changes were already in 7.14 and 10.0 is a small upgrade from there
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:02:30
Just curious, what changed in upstream's dev flow?
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:03:17
time based releases, consolidating components into fewer repos
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:03:46
I think that the target is to have releases every 6 weeks but I don't know if that was the final decision
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:04:25
Good to know. Seems like a simplification of things
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:04:33
we'll see
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:04:57
we still have the same number of components because koji wouldn't be able to build the mono repos without timing out so that part is not changing from the perspective of a Fedora user
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:05:50
I thought that there were some minor issues with the upgrade from a state-of-fedora-packages PoV but I don't know the details
<@copperi:fedora.im>
17:06:07
can't you adjust timeout values ?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:06:10
Was this a part of what the future AMD CI in Fedora Infra was intended to help solve? The timing out of big builds, I mean.
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:06:20
not past a hard-coded max, no
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:07:16
not really, no. the idea was to get more testing of ROCm and it's reverse dependencies earlier in the cycle so it doesn't come down to one of us running the tests
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:08:25
Ah, got it. I wonder if this will be a recurring issue or if breaking things down into smaller component builds will solve the issue practically
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:09:53
some of the components are perpetual problems but most are well enough behaved
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:11:03
but in summary, Tom Rix is making progress on getting ROCm 10.0 into rawhide and any remaining issues will be handled if/when they arise
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:11:50
reverse dependencies have the option of switching to the 7.2 compat pacakges if migrating to 10.0 isn't realistic at this time
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:12:30
anything else on this?
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:13:00
jflory7 has already given cookies to tflink during the F44 timeframe
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:13:13
ok, moving on
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:13:15
I guess `ok` brings up `:cookie:` as the first option hah
<@copperi:fedora.im>
17:13:35
tflink++
<@zodbot:fedora.im>
17:13:36
copperi gave a cookie to tflink. They now have 60 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 44 release cycle
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:13:43
!topic What do we want F46 to be ?
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:14:34
This is also a topic that Tom Rix added and I'm hesitant to have this discussion without him but I can at least introduce it
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:14:55
Yeah, this is a big one! But we can definitely start it now
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:15:11
the root of this is the question that is in the topic, focused on this SIG. where do we want to go with this?
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:15:59
are we wanting to focus more on agentic stuff like llama-cpp and the agentic framework whose name I'm forgetting at the moment (pi-coding-framework, I think?)?
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:16:22
or is there more interest in things like pytorch?
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:17:19
there are a couple of landmines in water around this discussion but I think that's more or less what the topic was supposed to bring up
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:17:37
there are a couple of mines in water around this discussion but I think that's more or less what the topic was supposed to bring up
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:17:39
From a packaging POV, I am personally interested in tools which allow people to get more hands-on, practically, with AI in daily workflows in the CLI. Hermes, OpenCode, etc. GUI apps might be cool too, but my personal bias is CLI over GUI
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:17:55
note: there are no landmines in water. my analogy was very flawed :-D
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:18:31
I remember Gordon Messmer was working on Podman Desktop. Not sure where that went. It was an Electron dependency which was the big headache, but I recall that this might have finally been done?
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:18:50
the problem with a lot of the agentic apps is that they aren't designed to be packaged, IMHO
<@copperi:fedora.im>
17:19:05
+1 on cli
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:19:16
Hermes is kinda workable but has some not-too-pretty workarounds that are required to get it to package
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:19:28
For F46, I would also like to "debut" the Fedora Skills Library. Clear and easy install instructions, documentation on using and contributing, and automated checks/CI and a reviewer guide for reviewing and adding/changing skills
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:19:53
Yeah, I saw this with OpenCode and also `llmfit` for the brief time I was fighting those Rust deps 😕
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:19:55
IIRC, opencode may not be reasonably packagable due to its node and js requirements
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:20:23
I wonder if a vendored dep Copr could be useful, or if people would just rather curl-bash install
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:20:33
honestly, not sure on that one
<@copperi:fedora.im>
17:20:44
https://www.skills.sh/?q=fedora
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:20:52
I've been getting a lot of flashbacks to the "rings" discussion from 10 years ago, though
<@gordonmessmer:fedora.im>
17:21:01
electron has been built in Rawhide, and I am currently looking for package reviewers for podman-desktop and its dependencies
<@gordonmessmer:fedora.im>
17:21:18
I've reached out to a few people specifically but finding reviewers is a perpetual problem
<@gordonmessmer:fedora.im>
17:21:34
I've got at least one more person to ping today
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:21:39
not sure I'd be comfortable doing an electron review, honestly
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:23:03
but there is an underlying discussion of "how should software be distributed" running under a lot of these questions
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:23:27
!idea For F46, "debut" the Fedora Skills Library. Provide clear and easy install instructions, documentation on using and contributing skills, and automated checks/CI and a reviewer guide for maintainers when reviewing new skills or changes to existing skills. [Note: Need to consider installation mechanism, i.e., git submodules, LoLA, and other skill "package managers"]
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:23:33
especially when folks start asking why Fedora releases don't have the latest-and-greatest versions packaged in the main repos
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:23:40
I am halfway through Gordon's blog post about this same topic
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:23:49
!link https://gordonmessmer.codeberg.page/dev-blog/2026/09/11/i-packaged-vllm.html
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:26:19
copperi: Also, interesting link. I'll look at that site more to see how skills get published there. Might be cool if we had an automated way of publishing skills and updates to skills especially. A reliable update mechanism for changes to skills is the puzzle piece I am puzzling, while also using things in the Fedora workflow/packaged tools
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:26:37
IMHO, the two of the bigger problems with packaging software in the ai space is that so many things depend on pytorch (which is painful to package on its own) and the culture has been more of a "fix it for myself now by pinning a bundle all of the things I need to build" which does not lend easily to traditional packaging
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:27:01
but I don't think we have any chance of fixing either of those in any sane time frame
<@gordonmessmer:fedora.im>
17:27:38
I have a lot to say on that topic and the meeting does not have time for all of it.
<@gordonmessmer:fedora.im>
17:27:50
there will be more blogs
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:27:53
yeah, I'm drifting into "rants and fantasies" land
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:27:55
A conversation I heard in the hallway from a Fedoran of note was about what it might look like for AI-driven vendored dep management for packages with vendored deps
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:28:14
I just noticed that we have 2 minutes left
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:28:24
and we've wandered far off topic
<@gordonmessmer:fedora.im>
17:28:29
well, tell the fedoran of note to reach out to me
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:28:42
A former FPL 🙂 Who is working on this challenge at RH
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:28:46
I'll follow up in DMs
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:29:09
Well, not totally. It is a big topic and we will likely need to discuss more, but it helps to start laying this out
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:29:16
But yeah, probably all we have time for today
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:29:27
!info the discussion around what we want to have the sig work on and what F46+ deliverables will look like will continue later and elsewhere
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:29:43
moving on to a quick
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:29:48
!topic open floor
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:29:56
is there anything else to bring up that needs to be done today?
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:30:10
Not sure there is time to say much else than thanks for chairing today's meeting tflink 🙂
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:30:51
I'm going to head back to the Fedora/CentOS booth here. I'll open the docs ticket soon too, I'll try before EOD tomorrow.
<@jflory7:fedora.im>
17:30:55
See ya folks! 👋
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:30:59
ok, thanks for coming everyone
<@tflink:fedora.im>
17:31:06
!endmeeting