2023-12-21 16:06:50 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !startmeeting fedora_cloud_meeting
2023-12-21 16:06:50 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2023-12-21 16:06:50 UTC
2023-12-21 16:06:50 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fedora_cloud_meeting'
2023-12-21 16:07:00 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !topic roll call
2023-12-21 16:07:07 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !hi
2023-12-21 16:07:10 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neal Gompa (ngompa) - he / him / his
2023-12-21 16:07:24 <@davdunc:fedora.im> can I chair now? 
2023-12-21 16:07:31 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !chair Conan Kudo 
2023-12-21 16:07:34 <@davdunc:fedora.im> no. 
2023-12-21 16:07:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> still not supported :(
2023-12-21 16:08:00 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we'll get there. 
2023-12-21 16:08:01 <@davdunc:fedora.im> :) 
2023-12-21 16:08:07 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> !hi 
2023-12-21 16:08:08 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon (neil) - he / him / his
2023-12-21 16:08:18 <@davdunc:fedora.im> hi Neil Hanlon 
2023-12-21 16:08:28 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> i *think* I heard !chair isn't supported because it's no longer needed to run commands
2023-12-21 16:08:49 <@davdunc:fedora.im> well that's cool. 
2023-12-21 16:09:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> well, the point of chair was to filter who could run them... :/
2023-12-21 16:09:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but okay
2023-12-21 16:09:12 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> right, yeah. just repeating what I heard
2023-12-21 16:09:23 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> (read)
2023-12-21 16:09:28 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I appreciate that. 
2023-12-21 16:09:40 <@davdunc:fedora.im> cool. 
2023-12-21 16:10:00 <@davdunc:fedora.im> okay. 
2023-12-21 16:10:42 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !topic Action items from last meeting
2023-12-21 16:11:05 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !info davdunc and ngompa to schedule a hackfest on the Fedora
    Calendar and post to the mailing list.
2023-12-21 16:11:10 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we did it. 
2023-12-21 16:11:19 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we will do another one after the shutdown. 
2023-12-21 16:11:35 <@davdunc:fedora.im> . . . and another . . . and another. . . you get the picture. 
2023-12-21 16:12:06 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> the Cloud hackfests were rather productive
2023-12-21 16:12:13 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we've made a ton of progress in the two we've had so far
2023-12-21 16:12:18 <@davdunc:fedora.im> indeed! 
2023-12-21 16:12:33 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !info davdunc to include oracle cloud upload in the saturday hackfest and testing 
2023-12-21 16:12:40 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I didn't get that completed. 
2023-12-21 16:13:11 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I am looking forward to completing the ansible work before the next meeting though. 
2023-12-21 16:13:35 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !info davdunc to complete blogpost for fedora magazine with @themayor and team. 
2023-12-21 16:13:41 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I am behind on that one too. 
2023-12-21 16:14:31 <@davdunc:fedora.im> bstinson asked me if I was still working on it. i have good intentions, but having to reprioritize. If someone completes a blogpost before me, I won't be sad. 
2023-12-21 16:15:04 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Anything to add? 
2023-12-21 16:15:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> we still need to sync up with the Azure folks
2023-12-21 16:15:42 <@davdunc:fedora.im> it's there. Sandeep is pretty active on CoreOS, but we haven't been as available. 
2023-12-21 16:15:50 <@davdunc:fedora.im> he's willing. 
2023-12-21 16:15:59 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> cool
2023-12-21 16:16:02 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Sandeep is from Azure team. PM. 
2023-12-21 16:16:25 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ah okay
2023-12-21 16:16:48 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I ahve been buried under a management shuffle and all of the requirements necessary to ensure support for my LOB. 
2023-12-21 16:17:24 <@davdunc:fedora.im> so i havne't been available this past ... month really.
2023-12-21 16:17:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> oof
2023-12-21 16:17:41 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> hopefully things are going to be better going forward?
2023-12-21 16:17:53 <@davdunc:fedora.im> yea. The good news is that it's over as of yesterday. 
2023-12-21 16:17:54 <@davdunc:fedora.im> :) 
2023-12-21 16:18:06 <@davdunc:fedora.im> so I am back to being a builder. 
2023-12-21 16:18:12 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> also, sorta same. I'm transitioning into a new fully-foss-focused role :) 
2023-12-21 16:18:23 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon: that is fabulous. 
2023-12-21 16:18:34 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I hope we can be a part of that. 
2023-12-21 16:18:39 <@davdunc:fedora.im> okay. . . 
2023-12-21 16:18:44 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> That is the plan! :D 
2023-12-21 16:18:51 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Can we discuss the new PRD? 
2023-12-21 16:19:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> didn't we already approve that last year?
2023-12-21 16:19:29 <@davdunc:fedora.im> sorry. 
2023-12-21 16:19:37 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I said that when I meant "Change Proposal
2023-12-21 16:19:38 <@davdunc:fedora.im> " 
2023-12-21 16:20:11 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> ah okay
2023-12-21 16:20:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> sure, topic change away :)
2023-12-21 16:21:06 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !topic KIWI builder for Cloud Images Change Proposal
2023-12-21 16:21:30 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KiwiBuiltCloudImages
2023-12-21 16:22:55 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> this change document went through a lot of churn in the last couple of days :)
2023-12-21 16:23:02 <@davdunc:fedora.im> as we have been discussing for some time now, we have kiwi image build support for a lot of the image types we wanted to build. 
2023-12-21 16:23:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> but I'm pretty pleased with the end result
2023-12-21 16:23:17 <@davdunc:fedora.im> yea. great additions Conan Kudo 
2023-12-21 16:23:28 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> thanks to Davide Cavalca for stepping up and helping on structuring it after davdunc made the proposal and I cleaned it up
2023-12-21 16:23:30 <@davdunc:fedora.im> much better organization than when I started. 
2023-12-21 16:23:38 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Davide Cavalca++
2023-12-21 16:23:40 <@zodbot:fedora.im> davdunc gave a cookie to dcavalca. They now have 17 cookies, 2 of which were obtained in the Fedora 39 release cycle
2023-12-21 16:24:06 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I am super grateful for everyone who looked it over. 
2023-12-21 16:24:14 <@davide:cavalca.name> thanks, happy to help
2023-12-21 16:24:24 <@davide:cavalca.name> hopefully the discussion will be productive
2023-12-21 16:24:32 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> did someone say CoreOS :) 

2023-12-21 16:24:38 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I hope so, yes. :) 
2023-12-21 16:24:39 <@davdunc:fedora.im> haha. 
2023-12-21 16:24:43 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> hey dustymabe rises from the crypt :P
2023-12-21 16:24:47 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I did dustymabe ! 
2023-12-21 16:24:57 <@davdunc:fedora.im> because . . . AWESOME! 
2023-12-21 16:25:16 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> great job on the Change Proposal, everyone! :D 
2023-12-21 16:25:20 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I was saying that Sandeep was active in the coreos updates. 
2023-12-21 16:25:39 <@davdunc:fedora.im> on the Azure side and that he was waiting on me to finish an article. 
2023-12-21 16:25:54 <@davdunc:fedora.im> thanks Neil Hanlon 
2023-12-21 16:27:35 <@davdunc:fedora.im> back on topic: I think it's important that we recognize that this provides us a lot of build types that we need today. 
2023-12-21 16:28:12 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we are looking at kiwi as a companion to the work on osbuild and not a replacement for working directly with the image builder team. 
2023-12-21 16:28:35 <@davdunc:fedora.im> So we will continue to work on both. 
2023-12-21 16:28:57 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> one thing I expect we'll wind up doing is developing some communities of practice blueprints for people who want to use osbuild
2023-12-21 16:29:03 <@davdunc:fedora.im> We need the kiwi builds today because we can achieve our goals faster. 
2023-12-21 16:29:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I wanted for us to do that with ImageFactory too, but I couldn't even get the tool to run locally
2023-12-21 16:29:18 <@davdunc:fedora.im> that sounds like a GREAT idea Conan Kudo 
2023-12-21 16:29:53 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> oh, ImageFactory...
2023-12-21 16:30:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> even if we use one tool for our images, I want us to give people options for their own tooling and provide a level of support where reasonable
2023-12-21 16:30:14 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we should follow the rules that the Karsten's team developed in the Operate First initiatives and build our own Architectural Decision Records. 
2023-12-21 16:30:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> like, similarly I'd like to work with Davide Cavalca and his team to offer some samples with mkosi too
2023-12-21 16:30:43 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I mean, the ChangeProposal is that, but we should probably have something more discoverable in the cloud-sig repo. 
2023-12-21 16:30:59 <@davide:cavalca.name> Daan is still working on that mkosi koji plugin btw
2023-12-21 16:31:10 <@davide:cavalca.name> which will make mkosi more viable for these kind of things in the future
2023-12-21 16:31:32 <@davdunc:fedora.im> yea. we really want to get rid of all of the python-2.7
2023-12-21 16:31:38 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and I've got some dusty old kiwi samples for building layered descriptions that I think we can turn into something the SIG offers
2023-12-21 16:31:49 <@davdunc:fedora.im> awesome. 
2023-12-21 16:31:52 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> for those who want to build their own images from scratch
2023-12-21 16:32:05 <@davdunc:fedora.im> so . . . I'm working on the toddler effort. 
2023-12-21 16:32:27 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and maaybe, if appliance-tools can still make working cloud images, we can keep some sample kickstarts too :)
2023-12-21 16:32:29 <@davdunc:fedora.im> but we'll make that a part of the working group efforts in our hackfests. 
2023-12-21 16:32:32 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> and maybe, if appliance-tools can still make working cloud images, we can keep some sample kickstarts too :)
2023-12-21 16:32:42 <@davdunc:fedora.im> that would be cool. 
2023-12-21 16:32:59 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we have UEFI only support moving into kiwi too, right Conan Kudo 
2023-12-21 16:33:17 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> there's a ticket for that.. one sec
2023-12-21 16:33:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !link https://github.com/OSInside/kiwi/issues/2407
2023-12-21 16:34:13 <@davdunc:fedora.im> excellent. 
2023-12-21 16:34:22 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> it's not a blocker for the UKI images stuff since you need to use "custom" mode, but I'd like this to be easier and declarative for regular use-cases
2023-12-21 16:34:36 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> like, there's no reason for hybrid boot on Azure images, for example
2023-12-21 16:34:36 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we don't want to leave behind the UKI work. I think that's very important. 
2023-12-21 16:35:03 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I like the way you are thinking about it. 
2023-12-21 16:35:35 <@davdunc:fedora.im> okay.  . . Any other feedback? dustymabe did you get a chance to review at all? 
2023-12-21 16:35:58 <@davdunc:fedora.im> no pressure. It's a busy time and you have a lot on your plate. 
2023-12-21 16:36:35 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I should note there are a series of releng tickets that need to be processed for this
2023-12-21 16:36:54 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !link https://pagure.io/releng/issue/11726
2023-12-21 16:37:02 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !link https://pagure.io/pungi/issue/1710
2023-12-21 16:37:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> those are the two main ones left
2023-12-21 16:37:55 <@davdunc:fedora.im> thanks for that Conan Kudo 
2023-12-21 16:38:03 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I've wired up our kiwi descriptions to Fedora CI as well
2023-12-21 16:38:23 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> !link https://fedora.softwarefactory-project.io/zuul/project/pagure.io/fedora-kiwi-descriptions
2023-12-21 16:38:27 <@davdunc:fedora.im> oh yea. 
2023-12-21 16:38:36 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we should move to that as a topic! 
2023-12-21 16:38:44 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I want some show and tell. 
2023-12-21 16:38:56 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> alright let's go :)
2023-12-21 16:39:04 <@davdunc:fedora.im> last chance for more discussion on the Change
2023-12-21 16:39:21 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !topic Fedora CI for Kiwi descriptions
2023-12-21 16:39:35 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !link https://fedora.softwarefactory-project.io/zuul/project/pagure.io/fedora-kiwi-descriptions

2023-12-21 16:39:49 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Conan Kudo: tell us what you've done here. 
2023-12-21 16:39:58 <@davdunc:fedora.im> So cool! 
2023-12-21 16:40:46 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> So, I've wired up fedora-kiwi-descriptions to the Zuul instance in Fedora's Software Factory. With this, we now have image builds validating our description targets on every pull request.
2023-12-21 16:41:17 <@davdunc:fedora.im> it sounds like you learned a lot about tmt definitions as well in Zuul. 
2023-12-21 16:41:33 <@davdunc:fedora.im> magnificent work. 
2023-12-21 16:41:59 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Is there anything we need to know about working with them? 
2023-12-21 16:43:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so when we're onboarding new image outputs or layered image types, the structure in place should give you useful hints
2023-12-21 16:43:14 <@davdunc:fedora.im> got it. 
2023-12-21 16:43:40 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> For example, I think there was a request for a KubeVirt targeted disk image? We should be able to add that now and ensure it's tested to build and work.
2023-12-21 16:44:00 <@davdunc:fedora.im> that's fabulous. 
2023-12-21 16:44:19 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> If the necessary output form for a new image isn't supported in kiwi, we can talk to them upstream in #kiwi:matrix.org and get that sorted out.
2023-12-21 16:44:34 <@davdunc:fedora.im> yea. kubevirt is an interesting use case. 
2023-12-21 16:45:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> I think the next new image that's probably coming are some UKI-based images
2023-12-21 16:45:29 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> so we should engage with those change proposers to get them to make a pull request to add it
2023-12-21 16:45:53 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I am excited because this definitely makes a broader contribution space and opportunity for contributors from many other spaces to come together around fedora and especially the cloud edition. 
2023-12-21 16:46:01 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> The next step that would be great for someone to do is write documentation about this.
2023-12-21 16:46:31 <@davdunc:fedora.im> (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ documentation
2023-12-21 16:46:43 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we need so much work on cloud docs. 
2023-12-21 16:46:44 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> We actually don't have a documentation site on https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/docs/
2023-12-21 16:46:47 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> that's surprising
2023-12-21 16:46:58 <@davdunc:fedora.im> can I change the topic to docs? 
2023-12-21 16:47:09 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> let's do that
2023-12-21 16:47:24 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !topic Docs is our New Year's resolution 
2023-12-21 16:47:52 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we can't waste any more time getting docs in place. 
2023-12-21 16:48:31 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> We actually _have_ to do it now since we're changing literally everything about how Cloud images are built and work.
2023-12-21 16:48:32 <@davdunc:fedora.im> I can't really add it as a requirement, but we have to make this discoverable and helpful to users. 
2023-12-21 16:49:51 <@davdunc:fedora.im> let's endeavor to add that as a part of our working group requirements and dedicate 20% of our working time to documentation for every hack time. 
2023-12-21 16:50:50 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Yes. I hope this will also help us bring in more contributors who want to show how to use things too.
2023-12-21 16:51:17 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !action reserve 20% of hackfest time for working on documentation 
2023-12-21 16:51:37 <@davdunc:fedora.im> just putting that up there so that people will know. 
2023-12-21 16:51:47 <@davdunc:fedora.im> okay. one more topic. 
2023-12-21 16:51:55 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !topic calls for papers 
2023-12-21 16:52:11 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we have a few CFPs out there that I would like to work on. 
2023-12-21 16:52:28 <@davdunc:fedora.im> we should have some support for FOSDEM Fedora spaces too. 
2023-12-21 16:53:09 <@davdunc:fedora.im> first up - Devconf.cz should have something around our work on the kiwi definitions and builds for F40. 
2023-12-21 16:53:45 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Open Source Summit North America is open and we should do something there on image use across multi-cloud 
2023-12-21 16:54:11 <@davdunc:fedora.im> and I would love to have a cloud workshop or two that we can do for building images. 
2023-12-21 16:54:37 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> Texas LinuxFest is open for another week or so too, and would probably be a good target for this.
2023-12-21 16:54:48 <@davdunc:fedora.im> 100% Conan Kudo 
2023-12-21 16:54:50 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> LFNW is open until Jan 02, as well (not sure if that's been discussed)
2023-12-21 16:55:01 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon: YES! 
2023-12-21 16:55:12 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> LFNW == Linuxfest Northwest
2023-12-21 16:55:21 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> yes, thank you Conan Kudo 
2023-12-21 16:55:32 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Neil Hanlon: that's a great place for us to discuss that work too.
2023-12-21 16:56:00 <@davdunc:fedora.im> also, it happens to be one of my favorite conferences! 
2023-12-21 16:56:09 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> I'm personally interested in the overlap with this initiative and the stuff I'm doing w/ Rocky cloud images. Really love the work and enablement y'all have been doing in the images space :) 
2023-12-21 16:56:35 <@davdunc:fedora.im> good. ..
2023-12-21 16:56:45 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !info Devconf.cz CFP is open 
2023-12-21 16:56:48 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !link https://pretalx.com/devconf-cz-2024/
2023-12-21 16:57:26 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !info Open Source Summit CFP is open 
2023-12-21 16:57:29 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !link https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-summit-north-america/program/cfp/
2023-12-21 16:58:10 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !info LinuxFest Northwest CFP is open 
2023-12-21 16:58:12 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !link https://sessionize.com/lfnw2024
2023-12-21 16:58:36 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Let's chat with Justin W. Flory (he/him) about what we can do for him at  Fosdem. 
2023-12-21 16:58:45 <@davdunc:fedora.im> okay 
2023-12-21 16:58:54 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !topic open floor
2023-12-21 16:59:05 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> you forgot about TXLF
2023-12-21 16:59:10 <@davdunc:fedora.im> Anything we didn't cover that we need to talk about. 
2023-12-21 16:59:42 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !info Texas Linux Festival CFP is open 
2023-12-21 16:59:45 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !link https://www.papercall.io/txlf2024
2023-12-21 16:59:55 <@davdunc:fedora.im> got it! 
2023-12-21 16:59:56 <@davdunc:fedora.im> ;) 
2023-12-21 17:00:23 <@davdunc:fedora.im> alright... I have one more that we need to reaction 
2023-12-21 17:00:49 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !action include dnf5 plugin for cloud builds
2023-12-21 17:01:33 <@conan_kudo:matrix.org> kiwi already supports using dnf5, so we can do that whenever we want :)
2023-12-21 17:01:42 <@davdunc:fedora.im> awesome1 
2023-12-21 17:01:46 <@davdunc:fedora.im> okay. 
2023-12-21 17:01:53 <@davdunc:fedora.im> anything from anyone else? 
2023-12-21 17:01:59 <@davdunc:fedora.im> 3 
2023-12-21 17:02:00 <@davdunc:fedora.im> 2
2023-12-21 17:02:03 <@davdunc:fedora.im> 1
2023-12-21 17:02:12 <@nhanlon:beeper.com> +1 :) 
2023-12-21 17:02:15 <@davdunc:fedora.im> thanks for being here
2023-12-21 17:02:23 <@davdunc:fedora.im> thanks for the help and all the effort
2023-12-21 17:02:31 <@davdunc:fedora.im> !endmeeting