2023-12-13 16:29:14 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !startmeeting fedora_coreos_meeting
2023-12-13 16:29:17 <@meetbot:fedora.im> Meeting started at 2023-12-13 16:29:14 UTC
2023-12-13 16:29:17 <@meetbot:fedora.im> The Meeting name is 'fedora_coreos_meeting'
2023-12-13 16:29:31 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !topic roll call
2023-12-13 16:29:43 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !hi dustymabe
2023-12-13 16:29:45 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Dusty Mabe (dustymabe) - he / him / his
2023-12-13 16:30:06 <@apiaseck:matrix.org> !hello c4rt0
2023-12-13 16:30:08 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Adam Piasecki (c4rt0) - he / him / his
2023-12-13 16:30:27 <@apiaseck:matrix.org> Hi all!
2023-12-13 16:30:36 <@jlebon:fedora.im> !hi jlebon
2023-12-13 16:30:37 <@zodbot:fedora.im> None (jlebon)
2023-12-13 16:32:04 <@gurssing:matrix.org> !hi gursewak
2023-12-13 16:32:07 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Gursewak Singh (gursewak)
2023-12-13 16:32:12 <@fifofonix:matrix.org> !hi fifofonix
2023-12-13 16:32:14 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Fifo Phonics (fifofonix)
2023-12-13 16:33:16 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> welcome apiaseck Jonathan Lebon gursewak fifofonix 
2023-12-13 16:34:03 <@jdoss:beeper.com> !hi jdoss
2023-12-13 16:34:05 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Joe Doss (jdoss)
2023-12-13 16:34:21 <@aaradhak:matrix.org> !hi aaradhak
2023-12-13 16:34:23 <@zodbot:fedora.im> Aashish Radhakrishnan (aaradhak)
2023-12-13 16:34:28 <@jdoss:beeper.com> I am still figuring out this Matrix stuff. 
2023-12-13 16:34:31 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> welcome ash jdoss 
2023-12-13 16:34:39 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> we all are
2023-12-13 16:35:32 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !topic Action items from last meeting
2023-12-13 16:35:46 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !info there are no action items from the last meeting
2023-12-13 16:36:02 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !topic tracker: Fedora 40 changes considerations
2023-12-13 16:36:12 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !link https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1626
2023-12-13 16:36:38 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> welcome Brad Smith 🙂
2023-12-13 16:37:06 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok so @jlebon and I went over the existing accepted changes for F40 yesterday
2023-12-13 16:37:36 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> A decent number of them were items that we had already discussed previously but had been deferred from F39
2023-12-13 16:38:09 <@jdoss:beeper.com> Lots of exciting changes in F40
2023-12-13 16:38:16 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> All the ones with the ✔️ are items we think won't require any work from us
2023-12-13 16:38:53 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I'll go through real quick the ones that we didn't come to any conclusion on
2023-12-13 16:39:13 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> subtopic 105. Ostree Native Container (Phase 2, stable)
2023-12-13 16:39:31 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/OstreeNativeContainerStable
2023-12-13 16:39:48 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> this one is from Colin and it was deferred from F39
2023-12-13 16:40:27 <@jdoss:beeper.com> So no more Zincatti upgrades in FCOS? Am I reading this right?
2023-12-13 16:40:30 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> he's been working on bootc related stuff and also possibly pushing that up into Fedora more properly. I think they will probably write a new change proposal and this one will get replaced
2023-12-13 16:40:56 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> jdoss: I don't think that has been decided anywhere
2023-12-13 16:41:15 <@jdoss:beeper.com> >Rework Fedora editions and spins (CoreOS, IoT, Silverblue, Kinoite, etc) that use ostree to instead deliver via Docker/OCI container images 

Is why I asked.
2023-12-13 16:42:00 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> yeah, even if we deliver via a container registry (which we do plan to do), that doesn't mean zincati (or similar functionality) goes away
2023-12-13 16:42:15 <@jdoss:beeper.com> Gotcha, sounds good.
2023-12-13 16:42:31 <@fifofonix:matrix.org> great to see this will be progressing. do we see any improved ux with this turn of the wheel or is it generally behind-the-scenes stuff?
2023-12-13 16:42:46 <@jlebon:fedora.im> Zincati (and the update graph) at its core is not very ostree-backend specific
2023-12-13 16:42:49 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon: anything you want to add?
2023-12-13 16:43:05 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ~~Jonathan Lebon: anything you want to add?~~
2023-12-13 16:43:17 <@jlebon:fedora.im> dustymabe: no, i think that's good :) 
2023-12-13 16:44:09 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> fifofonix: a lot of behind the scenes stuff for the most part. but something we would really like to do is enable automatic updates even if you have derived and rebased to your own container layer - it's not an easy problem to solve, though :(
2023-12-13 16:44:15 <@jlebon:fedora.im> fifofonix: i think we're still figuring out how this will get phased at a higher level than FCOS
2023-12-13 16:44:20 <@jlebon:fedora.im> phased in*
2023-12-13 16:45:31 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> moving this forward.. what do we do with this particular Changes entry for now? mark it as "likely to be replaced with updated Fedora 40 strategy" and move on?
2023-12-13 16:46:14 <@jdoss:beeper.com> I would really like to see some Ignition sugar added to bundle layer images into ISOs and manage that whole lifecycle. 
2023-12-13 16:46:15 <@jlebon:fedora.im> yeah, i don't think we need to focus on it as part of the change proposal process since it has its own dedicated focus
2023-12-13 16:46:41 <@jdoss:beeper.com> but this is fantastic that it is considered stable. I have been using it for over a year and I have had very little issues. 
2023-12-13 16:46:43 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon: what should we put under the `Notes:` entry for it?
2023-12-13 16:48:21 <@jlebon:fedora.im> dustymabe: i think Colin had created a tracker issue for it in the past. we can point to that for now and say more info to come in the future.
2023-12-13 16:48:24 <@jlebon:fedora.im> let me try to find it
2023-12-13 16:48:34 <@fifofonix:matrix.org> @jdoss great to have your feedback on stability. i demoed the feature to my team this week as i think we're going to finally make this pivot in my world. researching the topic i was happy to see it referenced in OKD documentation at this point too.
2023-12-13 16:49:00 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok I'll move on and let jlebon send me the notes to add to this entry
2023-12-13 16:49:30 <@fifofonix:matrix.org> jdoss:  great to have your feedback on stability. i demoed the feature to my team this week as i think we're going to finally make this pivot in my world. researching the topic i was happy to see it referenced in OKD documentation at this point too.
2023-12-13 16:49:37 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> subtopic 112. Switch pam_userdb from BerkeleyDB to GDBM 
2023-12-13 16:49:44 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/PamBerkeleyDBtoGdbm
2023-12-13 16:50:07 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon's notes were: `NOTES: jlebon: NEEDS INVESTIGATION. looks like they expect users to run a conversion tool` 
2023-12-13 16:50:32 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so maybe we add an individual tracker issue for this and get a volunteer to look at it?
2023-12-13 16:51:02 <@jlebon:fedora.im> yeah, sounds good +1
2023-12-13 16:51:24 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> subtopic 118. Removing SSSD ‘files provider’
2023-12-13 16:51:31 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/SSSDRemoveFilesProvider
2023-12-13 16:51:44 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon's notes were `NOTES: jlebon: should be transparent to us, but this touches nsswitch.conf, which is sensitive`
2023-12-13 16:52:14 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> another tracker issue?
2023-12-13 16:52:37 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i think this is just "make sure that the nsswitch.conf change looks sane"
2023-12-13 16:53:24 <@jlebon:fedora.im> in case of a bad change, the most likely case is that it'd break CI (by breaking altfiles), but would be good to be sure
2023-12-13 16:53:26 <@jlebon:fedora.im> yeah, SGTM
2023-12-13 16:54:11 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok - any other of these  topics in the list that we should discuss? maybe there is one where we missed some detail and we do need to investigate?
2023-12-13 16:55:49 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok I'll move on to another topic
2023-12-13 16:56:00 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !topic Podman v5 breaking changes
2023-12-13 16:56:06 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !link https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1629
2023-12-13 16:56:37 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so there is a change for this already but I don't think it's been accepted yet
2023-12-13 16:56:40 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Podman5
2023-12-13 16:57:37 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i think basically there's not much we can do there other than make users aware
2023-12-13 16:57:42 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> basically it looks like podman v5 is going to be really hard to upgrade to
2023-12-13 16:58:13 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i think as soon as it's accepted, we should send something out. they can use the new defaults today to ensure no breakage at rebase time
2023-12-13 16:58:49 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon: but that most likely means removing/recreating all containers?
2023-12-13 16:58:58 <@jlebon:fedora.im> yes
2023-12-13 16:59:18 <@jlebon:fedora.im> or just reprovisioning, with newer bootimages, or tweaked ignition config
2023-12-13 17:00:03 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> fifofonix: jdoss ^^
2023-12-13 17:00:17 <@jdoss:beeper.com> catching up
2023-12-13 17:00:46 <@jdoss:beeper.com> oh man, this is a doozy
2023-12-13 17:01:30 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i think if you've provisioned in the last couple of releases, you should already be good
2023-12-13 17:01:36 <@jdoss:beeper.com> All good changes tho
2023-12-13 17:01:45 <@fifofonix:matrix.org> personally this doesn't seem to be a major issue for me. my podman containers can be redeployed entirely without issue.
2023-12-13 17:01:48 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> maybe we should do some analysis to see what versions are affected
2023-12-13 17:02:04 <@jdoss:beeper.com> I think I am fine, I basically keep on stable and we redeploy the container images on layer update from tarballs.
2023-12-13 17:02:11 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> but yeah, you're probably right jlebon about if your systems are new enough it might just be OK
2023-12-13 17:02:23 <@jlebon:fedora.im> i don't recall when we switched over to cgroups v2 by default, but basically the max of (f36, $cgroups_v2_release)
2023-12-13 17:02:56 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> when was boltdb switched out?
2023-12-13 17:03:57 <@jlebon:fedora.im> hmm, i don't *think* boltdb is getting cut out yet, just deprecated IIUC
2023-12-13 17:04:09 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> CNI was default in f35 and older
2023-12-13 17:04:28 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ahh ok
2023-12-13 17:04:35 <@jlebon:fedora.im> (to be verified)
2023-12-13 17:04:36 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so CNI and boltdb are just deprecated
2023-12-13 17:04:42 <@jlebon:fedora.im> no
2023-12-13 17:04:49 <@jlebon:fedora.im> CNI support is getting removed
2023-12-13 17:05:01 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> oh, the change proposal doesn't say that
2023-12-13 17:05:09 <@dustymabe:matrix.org>     No longer support cgroups v1
    Deprecate CNI plugins
    Deprecate Boltdb
    Have passt as the default rootless network service instead of slirp4netns
    Support stable --format Go template structs
    Isolate podman bindings leading to improved usability
    Allow better handling of containers.conf
2023-12-13 17:05:25 <@jlebon:fedora.im> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Podman5#Upgrade/compatibility_impact
2023-12-13 17:05:52 <@jlebon:fedora.im> yeah, i think "Deprecate CNI plugins" in that section probably should be "Remove support for CNI plugins" ?
2023-12-13 17:05:56 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok then the bullet points probably need to be updated mboddu ^^ 
2023-12-13 17:06:28 <@mohanboddu:matrix.org> Ack
2023-12-13 17:06:31 <@mohanboddu:matrix.org> I will update it
2023-12-13 17:06:40 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so cgroupsv2 and CNI are getting removed - boltdb still around but deprecated
2023-12-13 17:06:50 <@mohanboddu:matrix.org> But yes, CNI support is getting removed
2023-12-13 17:07:04 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok good to know
2023-12-13 17:07:48 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so yeah, I guess we can start today with CLM helpers and instructions for people (I guess as soon as the change gets accepted). 
2023-12-13 17:07:56 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> so yeah, I guess we can start today with CLHM helpers and instructions for people (I guess as soon as the change gets accepted). 
2023-12-13 17:08:39 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> at least the CLHM helpers will still be there when their nodes get moved to Fedora 40 and they log in to find out why they aren't working
2023-12-13 17:09:29 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !info as soon as the podman v5 change gets accepted for Fedora 40 we should add CLHM helpers to notifiy people of the incoming changes and also a coreos-status post with the details
2023-12-13 17:10:21 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I wish there was a migration that could be done, but I don't want to put our team on the hook for that. mboddu do you know of any tooling that will move a system over without having to delete containers and re-create them? 
2023-12-13 17:10:51 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I can't imagine for RHEL that we'd make people delete their containers on upgrade, but maybe if it's a major upgrade
2023-12-13 17:11:30 <@mohanboddu:matrix.org> I am not aware of anything like that, if there is then we could change the "Deprecate boltdb" to "Remove boltdb" :) 
2023-12-13 17:11:57 <@jlebon:fedora.im> mboddu: is the second bullet in https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1629#issuecomment-1854387360 accurate?
2023-12-13 17:13:18 <@mohanboddu:matrix.org> Jonathan Lebon: I am not sure on the fedora releases, but the info is accurate
2023-12-13 17:13:44 <@jlebon:fedora.im> mboddu: thanks!
2023-12-13 17:14:01 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok I need to step away soon. I'll move to open floor
2023-12-13 17:14:09 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !topic Open Floor
2023-12-13 17:14:22 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> anyone with anything for open floor?
2023-12-13 17:14:55 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I guess we should bring up the meeting schedule for the next few weeks 

2023-12-13 17:15:17 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> I'll be on holiday until the new year so won't be able to attend any meetings until jan 3rd
2023-12-13 17:15:33 <@jdoss:beeper.com> Have a great holiday Dusty (and everyone else too!)
2023-12-13 17:15:36 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> should we cancel the remaining meetings for the year, or does someone want to carry the torch?
2023-12-13 17:15:47 <@jdoss:beeper.com> +1 to cancel 
2023-12-13 17:15:54 <@fifofonix:matrix.org> +1 to cancel
2023-12-13 17:15:59 <@jlebon:fedora.im> yeah agreed
2023-12-13 17:16:02 <@apiaseck:matrix.org> +1 to cancel too
2023-12-13 17:16:49 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> We do need to find a candidate to run the releases next week :) - apiaseck - looks like you are assigned to them. Are you going to be around?
2023-12-13 17:17:10 <@apiaseck:matrix.org> Oh yes, I'm around
2023-12-13 17:17:33 <@apiaseck:matrix.org> I'll do it gladly (hopefully with no issues)
2023-12-13 17:17:47 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> ok that's all I had
2023-12-13 17:17:55 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> will close out the meeting in 60s unless new topics arise
2023-12-13 17:18:16 <@jdoss:beeper.com> Toodles everyone 🙂
2023-12-13 17:18:37 <@dustymabe:matrix.org> !endmeeting