05:26:36 <mchua> #startmeeting
05:26:36 <zodbot> Log:            http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/freeseer/2010-01-30/freeseer.2010-01-30-19.41.log.html
05:26:38 <zodbot> Meeting started Sun Jan 31 05:26:36 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:26:39 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:27:18 <mchua> #chair herlo jds2001 stickster spevack dgilmore ctyler loupgaroublond zxiiro
05:27:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: ctyler dgilmore herlo jds2001 loupgaroublond mchua spevack stickster zxiiro
05:27:25 <mchua> Starting the log for Sunday.
14:59:49 <zxiiro> herlo: i got a merge conflict, what's the strategy for fixing that in git?
15:04:21 <zxiiro> herlo: i discovered git diff, and know that i want the 2nd file and not the first. i'm not sure how to make it take the 2nd file and remove the first
15:06:41 <rossand> zxiiro: I think git add is take mine (or I'm done merging), and git checkout is take the other copy. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
15:13:51 <stickster> rossand: zxiiro: Sorry, came in late... what's the question?
15:14:05 <herlo> zxiiro: oh hi
15:14:16 <herlo> sorry, been working on wiki pages
15:14:17 <herlo> but
15:14:19 <herlo> I can help
15:14:25 <stickster> The thing to remember is that you have three "places" to think about with git
15:14:35 <stickster> The index, the staging area, and the working tree
15:15:07 <stickster> Your working tree is the files/dirs you're looking at
15:15:23 <stickster> The staging area is the place that git looks at for your next commit
15:15:35 <stickster> The index is git's total knowledge of your whole tree history
15:16:04 <stickster> The stage and the index are essentially in the .git/ folder
15:16:20 <zxiiro> hmmm
15:16:53 <stickster> zxiiro: So when you say you "want the 2nd file and not the first," what I'm trying to understand is -- are you saying you want to commit changes to one file vs. the other?
15:17:46 <zxiiro> stickster: the file i pulled in from you guys, i want it, and i don't care about whatever it thought i changed in the file i have locally
15:18:31 <zxiiro> so how do i say , just replace what i have with the new
15:19:31 <stickster> zxiiro: Ah, OK
15:19:46 <zxiiro> well i managed to get what i wanted using kdiff3
15:19:51 <zxiiro> and git mergetool
15:19:57 <zxiiro> so i guess i'm on the right track
15:20:06 <stickster> You can do 'git reset --hard' to lose all local changes back to a specific revision
15:20:17 <zxiiro> ah ok i'll remember that
15:20:29 <stickster> Once you do that, keep in mind your changes really will be gone forever
15:20:42 <stickster> Only the things you've committed are things that git can recall
15:21:24 <stickster> zxiiro: I can recommend a good git book: http://book.git-scm.com/
15:22:10 <stickster> In a way you need to put aside the model of CVS/SVN because git is way more powerful -- the branch is king, as opposed to "hard to manage" as in CVS/SVN
15:22:25 <zxiiro> herlo, stickster: so i'm looking at the changes, while i think oggmux as default is fine, I don't htink i agree with setting pulse audio as a default audiosrc.  I know fedora and ubuntu uses pulse as their default sound systems, i don't see this project as being fedora/ubuntu specific and think alsasrc as a default is better since every distro can support that out of the box and having an option in the gui to allow
15:22:27 <zxiiro> changing the audio src
15:23:01 <stickster> zxiiro: Actually, PulseAudio is becoming the standard everywhere through freedesktop.org
15:23:21 <stickster> And in cases where PulseAudio is onboard, using ALSA actually inflicts higher CPU load
15:23:26 <stickster> but...
15:23:50 <stickster> This is something that should be adjustable, and you can gracefully provide a way to use pulse first and then fallback to ALSA if needed
15:24:43 <zxiiro> stickster:  i'm just thinking about people running distros like archlinux and gentoo. but definitely having hte ability to choose what your audio source is, is good i think.
15:25:25 <herlo> zxiiro: mainly, it was difficult to manage the delay with alsa.  Pulse provided a perfect sync where alsa was 'delayed'.  This is the cpu load which paul speaks of...
15:26:58 <zxiiro> is there a code example i can look at to make it check if pulse is available, and if not fallback to alsa?
15:27:49 <herlo> zxiiro: that I know of, no
15:27:57 <herlo> but I can see your point regarding this
15:28:48 <zxiiro> my laptop i develop on does not use pulse as it's audio system so i need alsa, however the laptop i test on is FC12 :)
15:29:06 <herlo> for instance, it's possible that others might be using JACK.  I don't think the debate would be pulse vs audio, but rather at the level above, with pulse vs JACK, for insance
15:29:30 <herlo> zxiiro: what distro are you running?
15:29:57 <herlo> I wonder how many other distros are not using pulse.
15:30:10 <zxiiro> herlo: i use arch
15:30:19 <herlo> but I don't have a problem if you want to find a simple way to progress through preferred options...
15:30:29 <herlo> zxiiro: I would think that arch supports PA
15:31:04 <stickster> They probably carry it, but may not use it by default.
15:31:14 <herlo> yeah, that's kind of what I am thinking
15:31:19 <stickster> which is a shame :-)
15:31:21 <zxiiro> herlo: yes it could be installed, but i'm also a kde4 user and kde uses it's own system
15:31:44 <zxiiro> phonon i believei t's called
15:31:55 <zxiiro> which uses xine and/or gstreamer as it's backend
15:32:01 <stickster> The big 3 (Fedora, Ubuntu, openSUSE) all use Pulse I believe.
15:32:03 <herlo> phonon is on top of PA aiui
15:32:10 <herlo> or alsa
15:32:40 <stickster> Regardless... I think this is a simple library search away
15:32:49 <herlo> but I think for now, it's totally fine to use a process to chose the right library
15:34:45 <zxiiro> well for now i'll just commit your changes and push it to github so that all our repos are in sync
15:35:23 <zxiiro> herlo: have you talked to rossand about github?
15:37:25 <herlo> zxiiro: no
15:37:45 <herlo> zxiiro: when he gets here, I'd like to chat if I am still around.
15:38:04 * herlo is heading home tonight (likely) and will be unavailable for about 6 hours of flying
15:38:11 <zxiiro> rossand1: you around?
15:38:29 <rossand1> zxiiro: yep
15:38:44 <herlo> ooh, hi
15:38:49 <zxiiro> oh good, herlo wanted to talk to you about moving the github
15:38:59 <rossand> oh?
15:39:09 <herlo> rossand: yeah, we'd like to offer you free hosting at fedorahosted.org
15:39:29 * rossand is taking a peek to check it out
15:39:32 <herlo> it comes with much more than github gives, we use trac and git to provide the resources
15:39:49 <herlo> but, we do need you to set up a FAS (Fedora Account System) account.
15:40:08 <stickster> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts
15:40:08 * herlo and stickster have one at http://fedorahosted.org/pulsecaster
15:40:16 <herlo> if you want to check it out
15:41:17 * rossand drools over pulsecaster. That'll come in handy for sure!
15:41:18 <herlo> rossand: mainly, it will get as much attention there as it does in github, but you'll have a possible army of python devs who might be interested in hacking on a piece of the code.
15:41:35 <herlo> rossand: it's simple, but a really cool tool
15:41:49 <herlo> stickster did the work, I'm just a committer.  Though I haven't done anything with it yet.
15:42:00 <rossand> herlo: looks pretty good. Off the cuff I don't see any reason why not... let me think about it for a little bit and get back to you.
15:42:07 * herlo had intentions of working on pulsecaster this weekend...
15:42:11 <herlo> rossand: cool
15:42:24 <rossand> If we do, it would be raise a ticket, and then we push to the new repo over there to get 'er going?
15:42:27 * herlo then realized we had some good devs in the freeseer group and thought it would be cool...
15:42:48 <herlo> rossand: pretty much, and you have to sign up for an account.  I can get the repo done today if you decide you wanna move it there
15:43:17 <rossand> I think I already have an account... need to go check to see.
15:43:33 <herlo> down the road, the FAS account can be used for much, much more and you could even get more involved with other fedora things, plus some great benefits
15:43:49 <herlo> like free web space, personal git repos, and more.  But that takes a bit more work...
15:44:37 <rossand> yep, I'm fosslc over there.
15:44:43 <herlo> awesome!
15:45:52 <rossand> herlo: I'm sure there are, but I should ask... are there examples of distro agnostic packages hosted three? We don't want to alienate the ubuntu, arch, gentoo, suse folks for example.
15:47:00 <herlo> rossand: they shere are
15:47:09 <herlo> pulsecaster is distro agnostic for instance...
15:47:22 <rossand> herlo: I figured as much. Just doing due diligence.
15:47:59 <stickster> rossand: Some other notable entries there:
15:48:02 <stickster> bash-completion
15:48:23 <stickster> elfutils
15:48:44 <stickster> moksha
15:48:58 <stickster> some pam* stuff
15:49:01 <zxiiro> as a contributor i suppose i'd need a FAD account too to be able to commit?
15:49:07 <stickster> publican... etc.
15:49:29 <stickster> zxiiro: Yes, you need a FAS account
15:49:47 <stickster> Each project in FHosted gets a group of its own, and the group can be managed through FAS too
15:50:10 <stickster> People can apply for it, and you or any owner can add or sponsor people
15:52:27 <stickster> The Trac instance is owned by the group owners who can customize as needed
15:54:16 <stickster> zxiiro: rossand: FWIW, I used PulseCaster because with full control over the trac and the git repo, it means that if I decide to move away, I can easily take all my data elsewhere.
15:54:29 <stickster> Sorry, s/PulseCaster/Fedora Hosted for PulseCaster/
15:55:14 <rossand> Fedora and each of you have been very good to us/the project which helps tip the balance. We can also push code to github to keep it up to date with stable milestones and still benefit from anyone who goes there. So sure, let's go for it.
15:55:36 <rossand> Shall I raise a ticket?\
15:58:23 <stickster> rossand: Sure... let me give you a link that has the process on it
15:58:26 <stickster> It's pretty simple
15:58:44 <stickster> https://fedorahosted.org/web/new
15:59:03 <stickster> You'll raise a ticket on the Infrastructure trac, logging in with your FAS account there too
15:59:21 * herlo is back
16:00:45 <herlo> rossand: jds2001 and I are actually talking about a cool new project, which might interest you from a git standpoint.
16:01:17 <herlo> it's called gitolite
16:06:27 <rossand> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1957
16:07:11 <herlo> awesome!
16:07:49 * rossand takes a look at gitolite.
16:07:51 <herlo> rossand: we're getting it set up right now
16:07:57 <rossand> herlo: thanks!
16:08:01 <jds2001> .ticket 1957
16:08:03 <zodbot> jds2001: #1957 (Hosting request for freeseer) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1957
16:08:12 <herlo> rossand: btw, it looks like we're already using gitolite.  I didn't even know it :)
16:08:28 <rossand> interesting. I didn't know either.
16:08:37 <herlo> but it isn't in hosted
16:09:03 <herlo> it's experimental stuff we're planning on rolling out soon, I hope!
16:14:09 <ke4qqq> /window/window 21
16:14:11 <ke4qqq> bah
16:14:45 <herlo> rossand: can you go into your fas account and add the right people to the 'freeseer' group?
16:14:56 * herlo would hope that zxiiro has a fas account too?
16:15:01 <zxiiro> i don't
16:15:04 <zxiiro> how do i make one?
16:15:20 <herlo> zxiiro: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/
16:17:29 <zxiiro> herlo: done
16:17:41 <zxiiro> i am the one known as zxiiro
16:18:28 * zxiiro kinda wishes more sites used openid
16:18:53 <herlo> stickster: is afk
16:20:22 <herlo> okay
16:20:30 <herlo> zxiiro: cool
16:20:47 <herlo> zxiiro: you know that fedora uses openid, right?
16:21:41 <zxiiro> herlo: oh yeah? how do i add my google openid to it?
16:22:26 <zxiiro> i don't see anything under edit account
16:22:31 <herlo> zxiiro: you don't *add* your openid to it, it's just a client
16:22:46 <herlo> http://zxiiro.id.fedoraproject.org iirc
16:23:13 <herlo> oh, but you have to sign the CLA to use it
16:25:51 <herlo> your trac instance is ready...
16:26:14 <herlo> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/
16:26:16 <herlo> oops
16:26:24 <herlo> https://fedorahosted.org/freeseer/
16:27:06 <herlo> zxiiro: rossand:  ^^
16:27:29 <zxiiro> do we get pretty graphs like on github? i've only figured out how to read them yesterday :D
16:28:36 <rossand> thanks herlo. I'll start pulling over content in a bit.
16:29:12 <rossand> For now, folks can keep working where they are. Let's aim to merge together all the code today and I'll push that over tonight.
16:30:14 <rossand> I guess that's a cool feature of git. No need to do the equivalent of svn switch.
16:31:35 <rossand> herlo: can I add our google anayltics id to the fedora hosted track?
16:31:49 <rossand> trac I mean
16:44:58 <herlo> rossand: awesome!
16:45:33 <jds2001> unfortuantely google analytics is non-free
16:46:58 <rossand> jds2001: yeah. We also use webalizer at fosslc.org.
16:47:43 <jds2001> we have awstats, but im not sure if it's used on hosted or not
16:48:02 <herlo> rossand: we could look into putting something like that of our own...
16:48:35 <jds2001> http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedorahosted.org/
16:48:44 <rossand> herlo: yeah, for google analytics, it's just a paste of a few lines in the header for trac.
16:48:52 <rossand> I've done it for other sites... pretty trivial
16:49:40 <zxiiro> i just commited to playground some code that allows you to pick alsasrc or pulsesrc as your audio source, keeping alsasrc as default for now until we get some code that can detect if pulse is available or not
16:49:48 <herlo> rossand: I understand it, we have it on our site too at utosc.com
16:50:23 * rossand wishes it wasn't the case, but to find a non-profit, data like that is necessary to be taken seriously. :P
16:50:30 * zxiiro goes to see if there's a pygst version of gst-inspect
16:50:30 <rossand> s/find/fund/
16:53:25 <jds2001> .sponsors sysadmin-hosted
16:53:26 <zodbot> jds2001: Sponsors for sysadmin-hosted: @mmcgrath nigelj ricky
16:53:58 <herlo> rossand: we believe in statistics too
17:04:05 * rossand is reading the contributors agreement. FOSSLC has a contributors agreement already (similar CC share-alike for wiki/video and GPLv3 for code).
17:04:54 <rossand> Do you happen to know if the Fedora project contributors agreement is intended to cover code contributions to the projects at Fedora hosted?
17:05:59 <rossand> I was thinking it'd be like this: contributor => freeseer (FOSSLC as a legal non-profit entity) => Fedora and other distributions.
17:07:20 <rossand> This is fairly important as the copyright would be jointly held by FOSSLC and the contributor. Thus is not particular to any os or distribution.
17:08:08 <stickster> zxiiro: Are you just looking for something that would show you the properties you could set for an element?
17:08:51 <stickster> zxiiro: The docs tend to do that pretty well... I usually keep an ipython up in a shell, so I can do something like:
17:09:01 <stickster> e = gst.element_factory_make('foobar')
17:09:04 <stickster> e?
17:10:05 <stickster> Or... you can do e.get_property_names()
17:21:59 <zxiiro> stickster: no i'm looking for something that does what gst-inspect does
17:22:08 <zxiiro> for example i was thinking something like
17:22:17 <zxiiro> gst-inspect | grep audio | grep src
17:22:29 <zxiiro> and then using that to determine if we support pulse or not
17:26:10 <stickster> zxiiro: Oh, I see what yo umean
17:35:46 <stickster> zxiiro: Yeah, I just don't see one. gst-inspect must be the preferred way to do ti.
17:35:48 <stickster> *it.
17:36:08 <stickster> zxiiro: The right way to do this would be search the system libraries for a pulse.so.
17:38:43 <herlo> rossand: there is no requirement to sign the CLA for fedorahosted...
17:48:01 <herlo> rossand: and the contributor model you describe is just fine in my mind.  I could be corrected though...
17:52:04 <stickster> zxiiro: Here's another model you could use... put that question on the packager level
17:53:07 <stickster> By doing a 'try' you could import a pulse sub-library that attempts to use pulse, and if it fails to load, you can fall back on alsa
17:54:28 <zxiiro> stickster: someone in #gstreamer suggested i took a peek at gst-inspector code, apparently it does what gst-inspect does, but written in python
17:54:43 <stickster> zxiiro: Cool, I didn't even know that existed!
17:54:44 <stickster> thanks
18:00:15 <zxiiro> i need to take off for a few hours, if anyone needs to leave me a message just tag my nick on the message and i'll see it when i get back
18:02:33 <stickster> zxiiro: Thanks
18:02:44 * stickster notes he will be driving home in < 1 hr
18:20:11 <herlo> stickster: :( we will miss you
19:00:20 * mchua doing an update in #fedora-fad of the FAD overall
20:18:36 <rossand> herlo: how do I approve requests to join gitfreeseer?
20:24:09 <herlo> I think it's this:
20:24:27 <herlo> login to FAS at click on the group name
20:24:33 <herlo> you should see people who want to join
20:24:57 <herlo> and you can sponsor them
20:25:03 <herlo> rossand: ^^
20:26:06 <rossand> herlo: OK. that's what I did. It says you have role type sponsor, but approval is unapproved.
20:26:34 <herlo> me?
20:26:53 * herlo is looking
20:28:33 <herlo> rossand: you are already a sponsor
20:28:39 <herlo> did you try to 'upgrade'?
20:29:46 <herlo> click on 'approve' if you want me to be upgraded :)
20:29:52 <herlo> or approved, rather
20:29:54 <herlo> same for dgilmore
20:30:00 <herlo> or ausil ^^
20:41:07 <herlo> rossand: are you around?
20:41:12 <herlo> we're going to have to leave in about 20 minutes
20:41:24 <herlo> wanted to make sure you got everything taken care of before we leave if possible
20:43:37 <jds2001> ok
20:44:02 <jds2001> so if you go to http://jstanley.fedorapeople.org/fas-home.png that's what it looks like when you login
20:44:15 <jds2001> click on the 'gitfreeseer' in the link
20:44:37 <jds2001> it will take you to a page like http://jstanley.fedorapeople.rog/fas-group.png
20:44:54 <jds2001> in the right hand box, click on 'sponsor'
20:45:04 <jds2001> *jstanley.fedorapeople.org
20:48:19 <mchua> Folks, we've got ~15m before we have to hit the road
20:48:50 <mchua> so make sure that you've got some next-steps written up (jds2001 has been doing this, iirc) and start winding up
20:49:08 <mchua> ...and I just saw that herlo beat me to it, so, uh, nm :)
20:49:18 <mchua> you folks are wayyy ahead of me
20:50:02 <herlo> mchua: beat you to, what?
21:01:47 * herlo has to head out :)
21:01:57 <herlo> thanks for all the hard work this weekend you guys
21:02:03 <herlo> I'm excited to get freeseer working
21:02:19 <herlo> I'll be back online in a few hours :)
21:06:38 <rossand> Thank you everyone. We really appreciate your work and ideas. It's exciting to see freeseer grow.
21:08:47 <mchua> I'm going to close logging now, but feel free to restart the bot if you'd like to keep going
21:08:53 * mchua just getting clean logs for the FAD wrap-up
21:09:01 <mchua> (the command is #startmeeting if you want to start logging again)
21:09:38 <mchua> Thanks, everyone!
21:09:40 <mchua> #endmeeting