fedora_townhall
LOGS
21:01:22 <jsmith> #startmeeting Fedora Board town hall meeting
21:01:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 22 21:01:22 2011 UTC.  The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:01:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:01:30 <jsmith> #meetingname fedora_townhall
21:01:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_townhall'
21:01:38 <jsmith> #topic Quick introduction from the candidates
21:01:46 <jsmith> EvilBob, then cwickert, the jreznik
21:01:54 <jsmith> s/the /then /
21:02:56 <EvilBob> Robert 'Bob' Jensen, Fedora user since Nov 2003, Former Fedora Docs Steering committee, Former FAMSCo, Packager, Fedora Unity Founder.
21:03:21 <cwickert> Christoph Wickert from Germany. I'm a Fedora contributor since 2005 and meanwhile have become proven packager, packager sponsor,  proven tester, ambassador and all purpose community monkey.
21:03:37 <cwickert> I'm also the spins wrangler and EMEA media wrangler. I was member of FESCo from F12 till now. EOF
21:04:38 * jreznik is Jaroslav Reznik, a Fedora Board member, KDE SIG guy and hopefully friendly Red Hatter who dedicated last few free weekends and bank holidays mostly to promote Fedora as an Czech ambassador
21:05:08 <jreznik> eof
21:05:15 <jsmith> And with that, let's get started :-)
21:05:24 <jsmith> #topic Questions and Answers
21:05:39 <jsmith> As a quick reminder for those who may have just joined -- please post questions in #fedora-townhall-public
21:05:46 <jsmith> Q from nirik: What do the candidates thing of the Code of conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_working_group/Code_of_Conduct (any general thoughts, etc) (cwickert, jreznik, EvilBob)
21:06:44 <cwickert> Compared to other codes of conduct I have read I think this one is ok because it is short and simple. I like KISS but I wonder if we really need it because everything should be common sense.
21:07:22 <cwickert> I suggest to keep it for future reference but I doubt that it can be enforced by the CWG, so the use is limited.
21:07:31 <cwickert> Nevertheless we should keep it. EOF
21:09:44 <jreznik> I hope we have a very nice community and I feel CoC is a standard how people behave even before we had it. Sometimes it's a little bit more difficult but I hope we will never have to use it to enforce it on somebody... So I like CoC not a fan of CWG (they did great job writing it)
21:09:49 <jreznik> eof
21:10:17 <EvilBob> It's a "code of conduct" for the community compiled by a group appointed by the board so the community had no direct say in who was putting it together and creating guidelines for them, bad form. We had this once here where I live, taxation without representation...
21:10:55 <EvilBob> It's a guideline, it has no teeth. It hurts nothing...
21:10:57 <EvilBob> EOF
21:11:14 <jsmith> OK, next question
21:11:21 <jsmith> Q from j_dulaney: How does the candidate propose to enforce Board decisions? (jreznik, EvilBob, cwickert)
21:13:39 <jreznik> I have to admit - I'm not a big fan of enforcing Board decision - yet, it would be much more easier to manage the project by using "force" but I think the decision has to be agreed by the whole community of active contributors... the thing is - we are not you bosses like in your job, we can't fire you and we need you :)
21:14:44 <jreznik> however sometimes we probably need to be more direct - but instead enforcing we should try to explain the decision to be accepted by you
21:14:45 <jreznik> eof
21:15:02 <EvilBob> No one has ever pushed back against the board so I'm not sure the question has a concrete answer, we have nothing to go by historically.
21:15:51 * lcafiero apologizes - parent-teacher conference ran long
21:16:00 <jsmith> lcafiero: No worries... welcome!
21:16:15 <EvilBob> The board represents the community, as such it's decisions should in general reflect the community's view so enforcement should not be needed.
21:16:39 <EvilBob> A decision is more a confirmation.
21:16:43 <EvilBob> EOF
21:17:13 <cwickert> To me the term "board decision" sounds like something that was decided by the board without input from the community.
21:17:30 <cwickert> If this what board decisions are, there should be no or only very little board decisions. We had this in the past and it was a disaster.
21:17:54 <cwickert> The board should be called by other groups only if they cannot agree on something. We should make decisions on the lowest possible level.
21:18:22 <cwickert> I don't like the word "enforce" either. If the board was called to make a decision, there should be a wide consensus among all groups and then we shouldn't need to enforce anything.
21:18:33 <cwickert> We should rather explain and remind people and if this still doesn't help, we need to nag again and again.
21:19:04 <cwickert> ATM I can hardly think of these situations but when they arise we need to deal with them.
21:19:09 <cwickert> EOF
21:20:09 <lcafiero> First, let me apologize for being late and talking over EvilBob - Bob, sorry about that.
21:20:35 <EvilBob> Quite OK lcafiero
21:22:33 <lcafiero> Like cwickert said, I also can't think of a situation where enforcement would be needed at a board level, since most of the board's decisions are of an administrative nature rather than an enforcement.
21:23:03 <lcafiero> In other words, the board makes decisions, but it's not the "cop on the beat."
21:24:01 <lcafiero> I think any "enforcement" would come from whatever group $SPECIFIC_POLICY affects.
21:25:00 <lcafiero> but again, a specific example would be good to go by.
21:25:02 <lcafiero> eof.
21:25:19 <jsmith> Next question:
21:25:25 <jsmith> Q from nirik: Tell us one thing you have done in open source/fedora that you are particularly proud of doing. (EvilBob, cwickert, lcafiero, jreznik)
21:26:22 <EvilBob> You know I gave this some thought over the weekend and It's going to take some work to keep it reasonable and coherent.
21:27:30 <EvilBob> At the time that things are happening we might be very proud of them, an example for me was being the EIC, Editor In Chief, for the release notes
21:28:03 <EvilBob> THat was something that we did every release that had a direct impact on the users.
21:28:58 <EvilBob> Long term looking back over the last 8 years, I'm most proud of the friendships that I have developed on the edge of the community and the work we have done.
21:29:51 <EvilBob> Fedora Unity, the FedoraSolved.org site, The Re-Spins, the first LiveCDs widely distributed of Fedora.
21:30:58 <EvilBob> Early when Fedora Project dropped the traditional CDs we thought it was too early. We picked them up, and the next release Fedora Project brought them back.
21:31:16 <EvilBob> They are gone now and the time is right.
21:31:31 <EvilBob> Stuff like that I guess is what are on my list.
21:31:34 <EvilBob> EOF
21:31:59 <cwickert> I have been wearing a Beey Miracle costume at FUDPub. :)
21:32:01 <cwickert> Just kidding.
21:32:21 <cwickert> One thing I am proud of is my work on LXDE and Xfce. I already got donations from people I don't know.
21:32:27 <cwickert> They sent me presents and even barrels of beer.
21:32:33 <cwickert> This helps to keep my motivation high. :)
21:32:52 <cwickert> Another thing I am proud of is recruiting new contributors. Some of them had a great impact on Fedora and some have become very good friends of mine.
21:33:26 <cwickert> But in general I am not a very 'proud' person. Pride only makes you too convinced of what you do and I think you have to question yourself every day again.
21:34:05 <cwickert> I don't want to be proud and fed up but focus on the work that is still left to do.
21:34:07 <cwickert> EOF
21:35:17 <lcafiero> What I have done in open source and Fedora that I'm proud of?
21:36:24 <lcafiero> On the open source side of things, generally speaking, I am proud to have started the Lindependence Project, which brought Linux to a small town in the Santa Cruz Mountains, and provides a blueprint for other towns to do the same.
21:36:58 <lcafiero> Part of an offshoot of this is a consultancy I run that helps small business and home office environments utilize FOSS programs.
21:37:37 <lcafiero> As for Fedora, I am most proud of the Fedora Project community as a whole, producing the great distro that we do, having a design team that is second to none, and the work groups within Fedora that make our distro the standard by which others are judged across the board.
21:38:24 <lcafiero> As for what I'm most proud of, personally speaking, as someone who partcipates in the Fedora Project is my opportunity to promote Fedora at various events, whether it's at local farmers markets, various LUGs in Silicon Valley or at big events like SCALE or OSCON. In the future, I'd like to contribute to a more substantial part of the project -- like coding -- but I'm not there yet.
21:38:27 <lcafiero> eof
21:40:16 <jreznik> With Sesivany we have restarted Fedora community in Czech/Slovak rep. after clinic (or ubuntu?) death (in former RHL/Fedora country) and I'm really happy when I meet every single guy using Fedora now again... For F16 release party we have more than one hundred registrations (btw. tomorrow;-). I'm also a member of Fedora KDE SIG, it's honour for me to have an opportunity to work with you guys. And all the great friends I made in the
21:40:17 <jreznik> community... And really proud? When I saw our new Fedora banner at LinuxCon, it's not easy to produce graphics in the way printer accepts it :) eof
21:41:03 <jsmith> Next question:
21:41:17 <jsmith> Q from Southern_Gentlem: If elected what is the #1 thing you would like to see the board do as far as being open to community? (cwickert, lcafiero, jreznik, EvilBob)
21:42:18 <cwickert> I have to admit that I find these kind of questions hard to answer. On the one hand one is to set an absolute favorite, on the other hand openness is a very abstract value.
21:42:50 <cwickert> I'd like further to open the board's trac if possible, but this is nothing that I would name as #1 priority.
21:43:02 <cwickert> Basically I think the best way to be open is to listen.
21:43:17 <cwickert> This means the board should not deal with meta-discussions about long term strategic goals without or with only little input from the community.
21:44:09 <cwickert> I think the board should be open to all requests from the community and deal with them in a timely manner.
21:44:29 <cwickert> and when they made a decision, they need to take time to explain it.
21:44:51 <cwickert> But in general I like the board to setp aside sometimes and not block our community.
21:45:29 <cwickert> IMHO this is a big step for Fedora to become more open. Not necessarily for the board, but for Fedora as a project.
21:45:31 <cwickert> EOF
21:46:30 <lcafiero> Mark this day on your calendar, because cwickert and I actually agree on something :-) At least up to the perception that the board may block the community . . . .
21:47:32 <lcafiero> Actually, this is a difficult question to anaswer, but I think the boards that have served while I've been involved in the Fedora Project have been open and have articulated their positions clearly.
21:48:45 <lcafiero> I don't always agree with the decisions -- *cough* GNOME uber alles *cough* -- but I think there has been an adequate give-and-take between the community and the board.
21:50:07 <lcafiero> As for the top thing I'd like to see? It would be to keep the processes open and transparent, and if they aren't (and again, I am not aware of any instance, but I'd be glad to hear about it), they should be opened and transparent.
21:50:12 <lcafiero> eof
21:51:48 <jreznik> Ok, I think Board, even the whole project is quite open - for example I like that we have public IRC meetings now - calls are quite a big barrier for non native speakers like me (it was and it's well balanced)
21:52:59 <jreznik> but also openess is not only about Board being an output devices, to be open, we need also input device - community... if there's no interested in communication, there's no communication at all
21:53:53 <jreznik> and unfortunatelly I know a lot of great contributors who speaks in private but they don't do it publically :( to be really open, we need these people to speak too
21:54:30 <jreznik> but of course - I'd vote with all my legs to any idea how to make all Fedora more accessible :)
21:54:31 <jreznik> oef
21:54:35 <EvilBob> I hope that people get tired of seeing my blog posts about what the board is doing. I hope the other board members use it as an exmaple. Who here on IRC knew there was a public IRC board meeting today? There was. No memo or reminder was sent using the IRCbots to the community that would most likely be involved in that meeting. The board like a marriage needs two way communication to be a sucess, if we don't let the community know of chances
21:54:35 <EvilBob> to communicate with us we have failed. The past boards are in general an example of how to not communicate with the community. There are exceptions but overall I would give it a failing grade.
21:54:35 <EvilBob> If there is nothing to report the board or FPL needs to send out a note once in a while saying "We are not working on anything." No information gives the illusion of secrecy, even if that is not fact.
21:54:45 <EvilBob> EOF
21:55:56 <jsmith> Next question: Q from an anonymous coward: In Fedora there is often a vocal minority and a silent majority on issues.  How do would you balance the competing interests? (lcafiero, jreznik, EvilBob, cwickert)
21:56:47 <lcafiero> Hmmm.
21:58:19 <lcafiero> I am not sure that this is any different from any other organizational dynamic in communities, and I think there's also a Darwinian aspect to this insofar is this sort of thing either rights itself or it doesn't
22:01:02 <EvilBob> lcafiero: ?? Done?
22:01:11 <lcafiero> No, still typing Bob. Thanks.
22:01:14 <EvilBob> K
22:03:00 <lcafiero> You know what? I'll leave it at that. I was going to bring up the "give us back our distro" or whatever that issue was earlier this year, but it would take me too long to post.
22:03:02 <lcafiero> eof.
22:05:16 <jreznik> I said it in last sentence - the silent minority, great contributors complaining silently in private - it makes them weaker, it makes Fedora weaker... but you know - shy IT guys
22:05:31 <jreznik> s/sentence/answer
22:05:49 <jreznik> I wish I'd have magic wand to make them extroverts :)
22:05:57 <jreznik> (at least some of them :)
22:06:32 <jreznik> but fedora tries to be meritocracy...
22:06:34 <jreznik> oef
22:06:45 <EvilBob> In church they always talk about 10% doing 90% of the work. Same thing can be said about the "vocal minority" they make 90% of the noise. All we can do is enable the silent majority to communicate more. A lot of people don't want to post their feelings on a mailing list because they will get flamed. I know I get sick of it. We just push on and have to hear the silent majority when they do make themselves known.
22:07:16 <EvilBob> EOF
22:07:38 <EvilBob> cwickert: You are up
22:07:48 <cwickert> sorry, I was disconnected
22:08:03 <cwickert> It is hard to balance this if you don't know what the silent majority thinks. I'm afraid often the vocal majority is only vocal because they have to argue against certain old structures or against people who are not listening for input.
22:08:12 <cwickert> I have been vocal about many things in the past and it was hard to stand the shitstorms sometimes.
22:08:27 <cwickert> I had lots of supporters but unfortunately they were part of the silent majority and only supported me in private mails or on IRC.
22:08:30 <cwickert> So it's hard to decide.
22:08:38 <cwickert> On the other hand FOSS in general and Fedora in particular is meritocracy at it's best.
22:08:48 <cwickert> Those who do the work can set the pace and direction - and this is cool.
22:09:00 <cwickert> As a board member we need to be open and listen to the vocal people if they are willing to do the work.
22:09:33 <cwickert> Take the UsrMove feature: It is a revolution in Linux as the FHS has been around for ages. This feature is controversial and there is a lot of skepticism. I have to admit that I am skeptic, too. But we have some engaged and brilliant people working on it and they are willing to do it.
22:09:47 <cwickert> So I'd say we should give them a chance and not get in their way. If people are really so opposed, then the silent majority needs to speak up.
22:09:48 <cwickert> EOF
22:10:31 <jsmith> OK, we're out of time, but I'd like to again thank the candidates for their time and effort, and wish them all the best in the upcoming elections.
22:10:46 <jsmith> And thanks to everyone else who has participated in the town hall meetings.
22:10:55 <lcafiero> thanks, jsmith and everyone else.
22:11:00 <jsmith> Please, remind your friends and neighbors to vote in the elections!
22:11:12 <jsmith> #endmeeting