17:00:11 <pboyHB> #startmeeting fedora-server
17:00:11 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May 12 17:00:11 2021 UTC.
17:00:11 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:11 <zodbot> The chair is pboyHB. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:11 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:11 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-server'
17:00:21 <langdon> .hello
17:00:21 <zodbot> langdon: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
17:00:21 <pboyHB> #topic Welcome / roll call
17:00:32 <pboyHB> hi everyone!
17:00:34 <langdon> omg.. im actually here
17:00:42 <pboyHB> As usual we should give a few minutes for folks to show up
17:00:51 <langdon> and .. its been so long since i did an irc meeting .. i can't remember how to register..
17:00:52 <pboyHB> langdon: a warm welcom!
17:00:59 <langdon> or, it could be coffee...
17:01:06 <pboyHB> #info please say either .hello2  or .hello <fasname>
17:01:07 <pboyHB> I’ll post the agenda in a few minutes.
17:02:24 <langdon> ohh.. ha.. i did remember.. just did it slightly wrong
17:02:25 <pboyHB> #topic Agenda
17:02:28 <langdon> .hello2
17:02:29 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
17:02:40 <pboyHB> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/server@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/KF2CTZMLFQAJTQIGDQIYQEAVAIYNAHYB/
17:02:49 <pboyHB> 1. Welcome
17:02:56 <pboyHB> 2. Agenda
17:03:05 <pboyHB> 3. Info new prospective members
17:03:14 <pboyHB> 4. PRD - various reviewer questions to discuss
17:03:22 <pboyHB> 5. Planning for next Fedora release(s)
17:03:30 <pboyHB> 6. Open Floor
17:03:37 <pboyHB> Any additions?
17:03:56 <pboyHB> #topic 3. Info
17:04:08 <pboyHB> During the last two weeks, 3 people had come forward expressing interest in participating in Fedora. I talked to each of them and promoted Fedora Server.
17:04:32 <pboyHB> There is Fredrik Arneving
17:04:44 <pboyHB> He is online, as I see. Hi Fredrik
17:05:20 <swefredde> I also need to refresh my IRC skills..
17:06:19 <pboyHB> swefredde: Hi, I had to learn it some weeks ago. Welcome at the learners corner. :-)
17:06:29 <swefredde> Thanks
17:06:31 <pboyHB> There is Tom Cummings, IRC nick tncummings, form UK but livin in Netherland.
17:06:42 <pboyHB> He is interested in writing documentation. We chatted and he has started to review 2 of our new document pages
17:06:57 <pboyHB> And I chatted with Sergei Petrosian.He is with Red Hat ligin in Prague.
17:07:15 <pboyHB> He worked with and is interested in Ansible and would like to join us havin Anisble in mind.
17:07:23 <pboyHB> Unfortunately, it is too late for him today.
17:07:55 <pboyHB> So I hope, we have a good prospect for Ansible and system administration.
17:08:52 <pboyHB> By the way, it would be nice if everybody online shows up with a short .hello. It's for the protocol!
17:09:16 <pboyHB> #topic 4. PRD - various reviewer questions to discuss
17:09:18 <langdon> gotta make sure the zodbot sees you!
17:09:32 <pboyHB> #link  https://hackmd.io/@x3mboy/HyB92cVl_
17:09:39 <pboyHB> langdon: ++
17:09:55 <pboyHB> langdon, who is working on the final PRD wording came up yesterday with some questions about parts of the current text.
17:09:57 <langdon> pboyHB++
17:09:57 <zodbot> langdon: Karma for pboy changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:10:11 <pboyHB> Please, langdon, take over
17:10:20 <langdon> im not gonna get any zodbot points with a colon :)
17:10:22 <pboyHB> thnks!
17:10:45 <langdon> ok... so .. sadly.. im still not done.. BUT.. i think i have more than enough comments to discuss to easily fill the time :)
17:10:48 <pboyHB> I'm still a learner. :-)
17:10:53 <langdon> im up through 5.1
17:11:08 <langdon> so.. you may be happy or sad that i have many comments
17:11:47 <langdon> my first is.. and probably the biggest .. is "what do we want when we says 'developer target'?"
17:11:52 <pboyHB> I think, may commets is a good sign
17:12:13 <langdon> so, if you aren't *very* careful the term "developer" means "someone writing code on their laptop"
17:12:29 <langdon> and I don't think we want someone installing server on their laptop (bare metal)..
17:13:04 <langdon> so i would like to confirm that what we mean is "test my thing on server" or "i need a vm to try out a thing, let me use server cause it is light".. things like that
17:13:12 <pboyHB> I'm still loking in the text for the term developer target
17:13:15 <langdon> not "let me go download server to install on my laptop"
17:13:35 <langdon> so.. i can "fix" the language.. if i am correct about what the SIG sees as the "mission"
17:13:56 <langdon> what i don't want to do is "fix the language" -> actually change the mission
17:13:59 <pboyHB> I really mean: test my thing on server .....
17:14:38 <langdon> the bulk of my comments are this sort.. i have a guess about what i think the SIG means.. but i don't want to unilaterally change the content till i confirm the intent
17:14:48 <langdon> make sense?
17:14:59 <pboyHB> langdon: Yes makes sense
17:15:09 <langdon> pboyHB: i hear ya.. and i agree.. would you like to "vote" or something to indicate a choice?
17:15:40 <langdon> i can write a "proposed #agreed" and y'all can vote up/down
17:15:43 <pboyHB> langdon:: The usual way ist: if nobody objects, it is agreed.
17:16:02 <x3mboy> langdon++
17:16:02 <zodbot> x3mboy: Karma for langdon changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:16:07 <x3mboy> I'm partially here
17:16:17 <x3mboy> Not power at home, so running on mobile
17:16:26 <pboyHB> Yes, yo write an #agreed, and if nobody objects, than it is is
17:16:36 <langdon> x3mboy: we dont need no mindshare.. join the server people! :)
17:16:40 <x3mboy> Thanks Langdon and pboyHB
17:16:43 <langdon> in progress
17:16:51 <x3mboy> I'm not mindshare anymore
17:17:01 <x3mboy> But it was alooooong serve there
17:17:02 <langdon> ohh.. that meeting is going on right now too :)
17:17:04 <x3mboy> xD
17:17:34 <x3mboy> Only nb is left from that original lineup
17:17:50 <x3mboy> Still on camel?
17:18:12 <langdon> proposed #agreed: "When we mention 'developers' we are talking about the use of Fedora Server Edition by developer to check out new server tech, test deployments, short term VMs, etc we don't intend that a developer would be using Server Edition as their "daily driver" (but they could if they like))
17:18:32 <x3mboy> +1
17:18:36 <pboyHB> +1
17:18:54 <langdon> i don't usually go to the mindshare meetings but they are broadcast in telegram so i do an hour of notify dissable
17:19:03 <langdon> me, obviously +1
17:19:21 <pboyHB> #agreed: "When we mention 'developers' we are talking about the use of Fedora Server Edition by developer to check out new server tech, test deployments, short term VMs, etc we don't intend that a developer would be using Server Edition as their "daily driver" (but they could if they like))
17:19:29 <langdon> pboyHB: i think you are the only chair.. so you have to take the #agreed and "enter it in to the record"
17:19:31 <langdon> ohh ha
17:19:34 <langdon> you knew that
17:19:46 <pboyHB> #chair langdon
17:19:46 <zodbot> Current chairs: langdon pboyHB
17:20:10 <langdon> ok.. want to step through the rest of the commetns? thats the only "big one" iirc
17:20:23 <pboyHB> Yes, step by step
17:21:13 <langdon> ok.. so assuming you have the doc oopen, comment on "develop" is the first.. but we will skip that one as resolved...
17:21:28 <langdon> actually pboyHB how do you want to "mark resolved"? or whatever?
17:22:01 <pboyHB> I think, we should add it to a comment afterwards, i.e. after this meeting in a separate step
17:22:08 <langdon> ack
17:22:25 <langdon> ok .. starting with "further evaluation and practical appropriation." very last comment .. how do you like that phrasing?
17:22:55 <langdon> actually.. if you like it or don't comment
17:23:06 <langdon> lets move to the next in the interest of time?
17:23:33 <pboyHB> I like it, for me it means, use server to test and evaluate my thinks,
17:23:37 <langdon> this " if you like it or don't comment" is not very parsable.. maybe  "if you like it or don't -> make a comment"
17:23:58 <langdon> cool
17:24:04 <langdon> ok.. next one is "harder"
17:24:14 <langdon> here: "cloud, containers, SaaS,"
17:24:52 <langdon> we have been doing saas for 20+ years.. its not "cool".. i like cool ... so maybe we swap it with "serverless"? its just an example ... its not like we are saying "no saas" ...
17:25:22 <pboyHB> For me it is: all the current hype needs a server at the end.
17:25:23 <langdon> but there may be a "point" im missing in the use of "saas"
17:25:38 <langdon> pboyHB: ha.. then serverless is an even better example :)
17:25:43 <pboyHB> It is an enumeration, i
17:26:33 <x3mboy> Interesting, use server for serverless
17:26:40 <pboyHB> I'm not sure about it, you dedice it it is better to leave that term  off
17:26:51 <langdon> x3mboy: well.. you do, actually, its just a buzzword
17:27:12 <langdon> pboyHB: "dedice"?
17:27:14 <x3mboy> I know, it's just... funny?
17:27:18 <langdon> deduce?
17:27:30 <pboyHB> it's a typo!!!
17:27:41 <pboyHB> decide
17:27:46 <langdon> ahhh.. yes..
17:28:01 <langdon> sometimes im bad are parsing typos.. i know a LOT of words :)
17:28:05 <x3mboy> Oh, I read it as decide...
17:28:13 <pboyHB> It if is a more a buzzword we should leave it off
17:28:27 <langdon> x3mboy: its hilarious.. a la "cloud is just someone else's computer"
17:28:56 <x3mboy> sure
17:29:01 <langdon> pboyHB: well.. its a very real "thing".. it just that "of course serverless requires servers; you just don't have to manage them"
17:29:07 <x3mboy> Cloud is just an storage that you don't own
17:29:28 <pboyHB> langdon: yes but anyone else has to do
17:30:21 <pboyHB> So, what do we decide about usage of those terms?
17:30:24 <langdon> right.. i think server edition would be a great place to run my serverless stuff.. so.. how about i rethink the sentence and go more for "you know all those buzzwords that indicate you dont need a computer; well, wehn you realize you actually do, server edition has your back"
17:30:26 <langdon> or something
17:30:52 <pboyHB> langgdon: agree
17:30:56 <langdon> cause i think that is more what you are trying to capture..
17:31:07 <langdon> ok.. next!
17:31:28 <pboyHB> #agreed  rethink the sentence and go more for "you know all those buzzwords that indicate you dont need a computer; well, wehn you realize you actually do, server edition has your back"
17:31:28 <langdon> 3rd paragraph of market opportunity
17:31:32 <langdon> new language..
17:31:56 <langdon> although.. im with defolos on potentially scrapping the paragaph altogether
17:32:16 <x3mboy> I think I got that one phrased
17:32:23 <langdon> i do think it captures something else though
17:32:36 <x3mboy> Chopping off the 3rd one
17:32:43 <x3mboy> And condensing 2 and 3
17:32:45 <x3mboy> Not sure
17:32:55 <pboyHB> langdon: I think your proposal i best: Fedora Server provides a stable foundation, with balanced resourc .....
17:32:55 <x3mboy> I can't actually access the document
17:33:09 <langdon> x3mboy: really? https://hackmd.io/xv-iMBzsTQ-KMvnDNV7VIA?view
17:33:35 <langdon> pboyHB: ok.. like i said, i don't like the word "usable" in there.. but ill make that change
17:33:50 <langdon> ok.. next is on "Fedora" in 3.1
17:34:23 <pboyHB> #agreed: langdons proposal about 3. paragraph in Market opportunity
17:35:01 <langdon> so item 6, 2nd to last sentence, is all about "modularity" .. in the sense of "you can upgrade when you need to" not be forced.. and thats what modularity is for.. so you can upgrade but not take the "latest php" as part of the upgrade
17:35:22 <langdon> so .. if you think that part of 6 is important, we should be talking about modules in this list too
17:36:15 <pboyHB> I wanted to emphasize: strict alignment, no extras
17:36:34 <langdon> pboyHB: what about "upgrades"
17:36:36 <langdon> ?
17:36:59 <pboyHB> This is a difference from other editions.
17:37:34 <pboyHB> Yes,and empisize easy, non breaking updates
17:37:58 <langdon> ok... i *definitely* think seamless upgrades are really important in a server.. so maybe we need a new bullet? like split those ideas?
17:38:00 <x3mboy> So how the wording of that looks like?
17:38:09 <pboyHB> Most imprtant sentencs fo me: All in all the maintenace work turns out to be very system administrator friendly.
17:38:35 <langdon> ha.. because i think i proposed dropping that sentence :)
17:38:50 <langdon> maybe its this
17:38:53 <pboyHB> oh sorry
17:39:13 <x3mboy> POVs
17:39:39 <x3mboy> But that's great, I also think sysadmins are very important for server
17:40:01 <langdon> 1 bullet) "server edition is the same software as all the edtions"; 2 bullet) "its wicked easy to maintain cause upgrades are seamless; modules let you stick to old or new stuff; etc"
17:40:23 <langdon> obviously needs better writing.. but does that make the 2 points better?
17:40:38 <langdon> cause i think there are two points (at least)
17:40:43 <x3mboy> It sounds good to me
17:40:50 <pboyHB> langdon: ++ to the core argument, yes!
17:41:03 <pboyHB> it is currently too long, indeed
17:41:04 <langdon> ok.. cool.. ill take a pass at it offline
17:41:40 <pboyHB> #agreed: 6 in to bullets, server edition is the same software as all the edtions & wicked easy to maintain
17:41:51 <langdon> ok.. in 3.1 bullet 2 i removed "highly engineered" because that is usually a negative term..
17:42:08 <langdon> but it does "lose something".. but not anything i thought was really worth saving
17:42:13 <pboyHB> i++
17:42:33 <pboyHB> #agreed. removed "highly engineered"
17:42:55 <langdon> next comment is on "bleeding edge".. just trying to think of a better, less scary, way to say that .. and kinda think "Fedora First" doe sit
17:42:59 <langdon> *does it
17:43:51 <pboyHB> i think bleeding edge = get the latest versions soon and in a stable way
17:44:00 <langdon> we came up with some phrase inside red hat for this for something .. but i can't remember the "something" or the phrase :/
17:44:20 <langdon> pboyHB: a lot of people read the "bleeding" part as something you don't want :)
17:44:53 <pboyHB> #agreed  langdon searches for a replaecement of bleading edge
17:45:03 <langdon> ok.. cool
17:45:24 <pboyHB> yes, bleading is not a goot pterm
17:45:28 <langdon> next is dnf and systemd .. i just want to drop them from the examples cause they are controlversial
17:45:36 <langdon> *controversial even
17:46:00 <pboyHB> systemd is controversal, indeed
17:46:26 <pboyHB> #agreed dnf and systemd .. i just want to drop them
17:46:37 <langdon> lol.. phrasing
17:46:39 <langdon> also.. i just noticed..it should be "e.g." not "i.e."
17:47:01 <langdon> ok.. sorry.. moing to next
17:47:26 <langdon> bullet 7.. i had a few things where i didn't quite get the "goal" ..
17:47:54 <langdon> why "backwards" on hardware compat vs just "hardware compat".. and why the bit about kernel drivers?
17:49:17 <pboyHB> i was annoyed with Red for removing kernel drivers so i could no longer install RHEL on my old hardware.
17:49:26 <pboyHB> we can drop that
17:49:35 <langdon> HA .. LOL.. same problem with a dell server i have
17:50:08 <langdon> ok.. might be worth "something" ill add a note to myself
17:50:28 <pboyHB> yes, and I switched from RHEL to Fedora for neary all our servers
17:50:52 <pboyHB> it was so much easier to handle
17:50:54 <langdon> i added "sentiment is really all open source drivers are available.. not just some set approved by the distribution"
17:51:26 <pboyHB> #agreed  added "sentiment is really all open source drivers ....
17:51:28 <langdon> ok.. lets skip the developer one
17:51:48 <langdon> next "big" one is on: It is meant to be used for the following purposes among others:
17:52:33 <langdon> i basically, i think this could be reworked to be ~5 word bullets which would be easier to understand for people
17:52:57 <langdon> a la the comment on the first bullet ..
17:52:57 <pboyHB> yes: This is more of a filler sentence, could be omitted
17:53:13 <langdon> sorry ^^ "this" meant the whole section
17:53:36 <pboyHB> we should remove  It is meant to be used for the following purposes among others:
17:53:45 <langdon> yeah.. gotcha..
17:54:16 <pboyHB> #agreed leave off sentence  It is meant to be used fo ....
17:54:34 <langdon> do you like something more like the comment on "operating" in the first bullet for all of them? if you are in rough agreement.. ill take a pass and then we can review the new version
17:55:11 <pboyHB> yes, take a pass
17:55:31 <pboyHB> Note: we are about to run out of time.
17:55:39 <langdon> ok.. next one "as well as a platform in a server cluster in a data center." im just not sure if that is what you meant (my comment)
17:55:44 <langdon> told ya! :)
17:55:50 <pboyHB> We should use the last 5 minutes te decide how to proceed
17:56:00 <langdon> ack.. lets do
17:56:49 <pboyHB> Proposal: langdon makes a new version along out agreements today and re look at the result next week
17:57:29 <pboyHB> We may have a short discussion on #fesora-server? probably friday or saturday ?
17:58:36 <pboyHB> #action langdon creates an updated version, together with x3mboy
17:58:41 <langdon> like implement the changes we have discussed? i can probbably do that up through section ~5 ... im *much* more comfortable with understanding the overall intent now
17:59:07 <pboyHB> yes, that'sa what I mean
17:59:14 <langdon> so .. i should be able to answer my own questions more now
17:59:35 <langdon> yeah.. i should have some time on friday (probably sat too)
17:59:50 <x3mboy> Sorry, I'm low on battery, but I will read the minute
17:59:57 <pboyHB> either you create a completle new text or you modify the curent, but remove all comments that are outdated now. You may need m3xboy for that
17:59:59 <langdon> but it might be my afternoon.. pboyHB im not sure what tz you are  in
18:00:26 <pwsmith[m]> Wow, sorry I'm so late... I wanted to join earlier but something came up. I just wanted to say hi to you all, since I'm new to the group (I've been in touch with Peter Boy already)
18:00:28 <pboyHB> OK, I thin we will find an overlapping time frame.
18:00:55 <pboyHB> Welcome pwsmith !
18:01:06 <langdon> ok.. cool.. can you "name a revision" in hackmd? like lock it for later comparison?
18:01:06 <pboyHB> bvetter late than never. :-9
18:01:40 <pboyHB> i don't know about hackmd. But x3mboy does
18:01:40 <swefredde> Hi pwsmith. I'm also new from today
18:02:06 <langdon> ok.. ill at least make a copy before i change it
18:02:11 <pboyHB> Sorry you two, we were too busy with administrative tasks today
18:02:17 <langdon> or hassle x3mboy about how to handle it
18:02:25 <pboyHB> I hope it was not too anoying
18:02:35 <pboyHB> langdon ++
18:02:51 <swefredde> No, I'm perfectly fine with checking things out for a while before acting...
18:03:01 <langdon> pboyHB: yeah.. let's try not to completely dedicate a meeting to this again.. i should eb able to be at the meetings through (my) summer but the meeting time conflicts with a class i teach in the fall
18:03:05 <pboyHB> OK. time is up. See you next week or over at #fedora-server any time
18:03:09 <pboyHB> Bye
18:03:21 <pboyHB> #endmeeting