22:51:30 <mchua> #startmeeting
22:51:32 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Mar 30 22:51:30 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:51:33 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
22:51:45 <mchua> This is an intro to how to make feature profiles. w00t!
22:51:51 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:F13_in-depth_features
22:51:57 <mchua> nmarques: That's the list of feature profiles we're doing so far.
22:52:10 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:F12_in-depth_features
22:52:21 <nmarques> mchua, a bit off-topic
22:52:30 <mchua> Those are examples of the ones we made for the last release. They're good representative samples of what we're aiming for again.
22:52:33 <nmarques> mchua, from the SWOT post I got a lot of matherial about SELinux ;)
22:52:41 <mchua> (Although this time we'd like to broaden into other media - podcasts, videos, etc.)
22:52:50 <nmarques> mchua, so if someday we are planning on those, I got the stuff :)
22:52:55 * mchua grins
22:53:16 <mchua> #info That's the list of feature profiles we're doing so far for F13, and examples of what we did for F12.
22:53:20 * mchua taking notes for posterity
22:53:36 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Feature_profiles
22:53:53 <mchua> #info that's the main landing page for feature profiles - it links to all the ones we've done in the past, along with the SOP on how to make them.
22:54:03 <mchua> #info "Feature profiles are profiles of specific Fedora features for which the Marketing team creates extra collateral such as interviews, podcasts, or other materials."
22:54:03 <nmarques> mchua, I've gathered some information regarding networkmanager
22:54:15 <nmarques> mchua, I know it started in 2004 by Red Hat with X and Y goals, etc
22:54:30 <nmarques> mchua, Novell worked out on KNetworkManager and so on
22:54:33 <mchua> Yep. And a bit of that history is good.
22:54:50 <mchua> nmarques: For feature profiles for a release, we're primarily aiming at covering the improvements made for that release.
22:54:57 <mchua> "What's new in NetworkManager for F13?"
22:55:01 <mchua> "How did that come to be?"
22:55:10 <mchua> It's a story of what people have been doing in the past 6 months.
22:55:12 <nmarques> mchua, so the most important is 0.8.0 ?
22:56:03 <mchua> nmarques: I'd say the most important are the features highlighted in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Talking_Points#NetworkManager_improvements_include_CLI (and if that's 0.8.0 that they appeared in, yes.)
22:56:39 <nmarques> mchua, do we have someone already in mind to interview ?
22:56:43 <rbergeron> ...and maybe, "who are thesee features good for?"
22:56:59 <mchua> nmarques: Yep! (This is helpful, btw - you're making us articulate what feature profiles are for.)
22:57:02 <rbergeron> if you look at feature_list and click on network manager - it should say who is working on it.
22:57:17 <mchua> nmarques: So, if you look at the individual features linked to at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Talking_Points#NetworkManager_improvements_include_CLI
22:57:25 <mchua> for instance, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NetworkManagerBluetoothDUN
22:57:29 <rbergeron> err, not feature-list
22:57:32 <mchua> you'll see an owner
22:57:34 <mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NetworkManagerBluetoothDUN#Owner
22:57:35 <mchua> in this case
22:57:41 <mchua> plus contact info.
22:57:51 <mchua> nmarques: that's your interviewee list. ;) or at least it's an easy place to start.
22:58:15 * mchua swaps into notetaking mode
22:58:16 <nmarques> mchua, indeed
22:58:29 <nmarques> now just for my information
22:58:35 <nmarques> since we're stuck with 500 words
22:58:43 <mchua> #info For featuer profiles for a release, we're primarily aiming at covering the improvements made for that release - for instance, "What's new in NetworkManager for F13? How did that come to be?" It's a story of what people have been doing in the last 6 months.
22:59:01 <mchua> nmarques: Sorry, forget the 500 word limit... there's no limit, but keeping it to magazine-article-length is usually good.
22:59:12 <mchua> nmarques: That was more a random guess on my part than anything else, and I was wrong.
22:59:24 <mchua> nmarques: for instance, rbergeron did a something like... 2000 word one last time, and it was *great*
22:59:29 <nmarques> mchua, 500 words is enough for 2/3 pages ;)
23:00:11 <nmarques> mchua, I'm taking a couple of seconds to organize bookmarks with this info
23:00:26 <nmarques> mchua, keep posting usefull stuff, cause I will read it shortly ;)
23:00:38 <nmarques> mchua, specially what you have in mind, like structure and such
23:00:56 <rbergeron> no limit!
23:00:57 <nmarques> mchua, and if someone is working/worked on something familiar for reference, please point it
23:01:01 <rbergeron> we want people to read lots of content
23:01:17 <rbergeron> and we want enough content that we can recycle into shorter, printable versions when appropriate
23:01:23 <mchua> #info Feature profiles are consequently based on interviews with the developers.
23:01:45 <mchua> #info An easy way to find interviewees for a feature profile is to go to the Talking Points for that release, and click through to the feature pages for the talking point you're covering.
23:02:01 <mchua> #info Each feature page will have an owner, and there will be contact information for that owner; oftentimes, that's the developer you want to interview.
23:02:06 * rbergeron also notes - Feature profiles shouldn't just be a way to advertise what fedora has - it's also a way for the community to get a more in depth look at what poeple are working on, that they can't always see because they're so busy doing their stuff.
23:02:09 <mchua> Yep. Remixability of content == good.
23:02:16 <rbergeron> and really - it's a great way to allow a developer to have their time "to shine"
23:02:24 <mchua> #info Feature profiles shouldn't just be a way to advertise what fedora has - it's also a way for the community to  get a more in depth look at what poeple are working on, that they can't always see because they're so busy doing their stuff.
23:02:41 <mchua> #info Feature profiles are a great opportunity for developers to have "their chance to shine." Highlight the good work people are doing.
23:02:55 <nmarques> one thing
23:02:56 <rbergeron> we shouldn't ever cut anyone off in their moment of glory and say, "sorry, 500 word limit" - please please, we want to hear EVERYTHING you'er doing, becasue it's awesome, and interesting.
23:03:21 <mchua> #info Feature profiles should be remixable content - people can and will respin them into other pieces for blogging, denting, filming, printing, press kits, etc.
23:03:31 <mchua> #info There is no word limit for feature profiles, consequently.
23:04:12 <nmarques> should also through interview or article provide a brief description of the tools that are used during this process? like version management, etc. Advertising this tools and work method/interaction between people might be a good idea to get a favourable point for people who *might* get involved with Fedora in the future
23:04:19 <rbergeron> it's not just that we are profiling a -feature-  - we're also featuring the work that went into it, and the developers who worked on it.
23:04:35 <nmarques> rbergeron, this is not a moment of glory ;)
23:04:56 <nmarques> rbergeron, I got my moment of glory long ago ;)
23:05:07 <rbergeron> i disagree - people aren't working on things for their health :)
23:05:29 <rbergeron> nmarques - have you read the cathedral and the bazaar yet?
23:06:34 <nmarques> rbergeron, I've never heard of such
23:06:58 <nmarques> rbergeron, can u provide amazon links ?
23:07:14 <nmarques> rbergeron, if you find it relevant I'll take some time to dig into it
23:07:18 <rbergeron> no, i can do better -
23:07:20 <rbergeron> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/
23:07:23 <rbergeron> it's free to read.
23:07:31 <rbergeron> and there's even a portuguese translation
23:07:32 <rbergeron> :D
23:07:50 <nmarques> rbergeron, but it's not easier to read :( there's costs with paper and toner... :(
23:08:25 <nmarques> ok
23:08:26 <rbergeron> not everyone agrees with raymond - but most eople will agree this is one of THE books to read if you want to understand the open source mindset
23:08:27 <mchua> nmarques: that's all I can think of in terms of how to get started on your feature profile.
23:08:36 <rbergeron> nmarques: it's not a horrifically long book
23:08:45 <nmarques> mchua, use the wiki for it or any other tool ?
23:08:51 <mchua> nmarques: start by looking at the feature owners for the 3 features listed as part of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Talking_Points#NetworkManager_improvements_include_CLI
23:08:52 <rbergeron> oh, portuguese translation link is broken
23:08:55 <rbergeron> FAIL
23:09:03 <mchua> nmarques: and contact those developers and say "hey, I'd like to interview you on how you made this feature"
23:09:10 <nmarques> rbergeron, I can read it in English, Spanish and maybe German
23:09:16 <nmarques> rbergeron, maybe Dutch as well
23:09:23 <mchua> nmarques: Yep, we do it on the wiki.
23:09:30 <rbergeron> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/cathedral-bazaar/
23:09:40 <rbergeron> it's a short series of webpages you can read through
23:09:45 <mchua> #info Feature profiles are written on the wiki - you link to them from that release's feature profile page (for instance, for F13, that page is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:F13_in-depth_features)
23:10:03 <nmarques> rbergeron, not reading this now, but bookmarked
23:10:09 <nmarques> rbergeron, just a question, becoming a hacker ?
23:10:26 <rbergeron> me?
23:10:38 <nmarques> rbergeron, I thought it was enough to own the FDA in 96 was enough :(
23:10:58 * rbergeron isn't following
23:11:19 <nmarques> rbergeron, foreign affairs ministery of Indonesia
23:11:57 <nmarques> rbergeron, nevermind
23:12:06 <nmarques> rbergeron, some thing better stay in the obscurity
23:12:08 * rbergeron got out of the hacker thing a long time ago
23:12:20 * mchua is still a hacker, never been a cracker though.
23:12:45 <hiemanshu> hacker whats that?
23:12:58 <nmarques> mchua, disambiguation... anyway it was "cracker" stuff that brought me into linux and networking ;)
23:13:03 <nmarques> back to the document
23:13:06 <rbergeron> it's when the FBI shows up at your house and confiscates all your stuff because your roommates are morons
23:13:11 <nmarques> which is far more important
23:13:21 <nmarques> rbergeron, instead of FBI, I got a nice job ;)
23:13:33 <hiemanshu> rbergeron: what about team mates?
23:13:35 <nmarques> rbergeron, so did the crew ;)
23:13:49 <nmarques> now
23:13:50 <mchua> nmarques: Yep. Do you think you've got enough to get started, or are there any things we've missed that are blocking you right now?
23:13:55 * mchua can't think of anything else, honestly
23:14:00 <nmarques> mchua, missing the more important
23:14:08 <rbergeron> hackers / crackers are in for glory, though - if you interview a hacker, they'll talk a little about what they got into, but the important thing is how they did it
23:14:12 <mchua> nmarques: what's that?
23:14:13 <rbergeron> that's what they want to talk about
23:14:15 <mchua> oh, audience!
23:14:17 <nmarques> mchua, interviews, how are we going to conduct it?
23:14:36 <nmarques> mchua, by email? written or through audio?
23:14:36 * rbergeron notes that - in feature profiles - we're not just emphasizing fedora -the distro-, but also fedora -the community-
23:14:39 <mchua> #info The audience for feature profiles is a general Fedora user audience - don't necessarily assume technical familiarity!
23:14:48 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
23:14:59 <mchua> #info in feature profiles - we're not just emphasizing fedora -the distro-, but also fedora -the community
23:15:02 <rbergeron> mchua - does that really apply to things like feature profiles on python?
23:15:05 <nmarques> mchua, and another thingg, how are such articles structured ?
23:15:25 <nmarques> mchua, Introduction > Development (and sub families) > Conclusion / Review ?
23:15:51 <nmarques> rbergeron, PERL!
23:16:02 <rbergeron> lol
23:16:04 <mchua> rbergeron: I think a good rule of thumb is "look at the talking points section the feature was placed in, write for that audience"
23:16:15 <rbergeron> mchua: good point.
23:16:38 <mchua> nmarques: We don't have a formal template, though if you look at the past feature profiles you'll get an idea of structure... it's very conversational/informal, and reads exactly like an interview (because it is).
23:16:58 <rbergeron> * tell me about yourself - what do you do, where do you work?
23:17:05 <nmarques> mchua, can I get a off-Fedora insight as well ?
23:17:09 <mchua> #info Feature profile interviews can be conducted in a variety of ways - IRC is common, as is email, or for podcast, audio, etc. It doesn't really matter as long as the final edited version is made available via the wiki.
23:17:12 <rbergeron> * tell me about this feature
23:17:17 <nmarques> mchua, like a support interview from someone from GNOME ? ;)
23:17:20 <rbergeron> (ie: what it is)
23:17:32 <rbergeron> * what drove the need to create / enhance / upgrade this feature?
23:17:35 <mchua> nmarques: Sure, absolutely! Though the focus of the profile should be on the story of the developer(s) who made the feature(s).
23:17:43 <rbergeron> * how was the community involved?
23:17:44 <mchua> #chair rbergeron nmarques
23:17:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: mchua nmarques rbergeron
23:17:50 <mchua> rbergeron: now you can #info those points too ;)
23:18:14 <rbergeron> #info possible questions - * tell me about yourself, what do you do, where do you work?
23:18:18 <nmarques> mchua, any special Categories for the wiki ?
23:18:20 <rbergeron> #info how didyou get involved in Fedora?
23:18:26 <rbergeron> #info tell me about this feature
23:18:40 <rbergeron> #info what drove the need to create / enhance / upgrade this feature?
23:18:47 <rbergeron> # info how was the community involved?
23:19:26 <mchua> nmarques: Categories: Marketing | Feature profiles | F<release-number>
23:19:30 * nmarques on "Highway to Hell" by AC/DC
23:19:47 <nmarques> ok
23:20:01 <rbergeron> #info (not an interview questions) - look at other activities inside fedora. is this used in fedora infrastructure? was there a "fedora test day" done to test this feature? look at the wiki page - tons of information? are there screenshots to be used.. or is the interviewee interested in making some screenshots for the interview?
23:20:42 <rbergeron> #info does this feature make the developers day-to-day work easier?
23:20:53 <rbergeron> #info robyn is just listing random possible questions to ask
23:21:22 <nmarques> this stuff brings me back the old days with rc.local scripts for PPP networking
23:21:25 <nmarques> lawl
23:21:34 <rbergeron> #info when making questions - be familiar with the Feature. try to anticipate what answers might be, so that you can make the next question flow from the previous answer.
23:21:58 <nmarques> rbergeron, good point, an interview should be prepared before hand :)
23:22:10 <nmarques> mchua, another thing
23:22:23 <rbergeron> #info don't just have a free-flow interview - have questions ready!
23:22:24 * mchua has to run for dinner fairly soon; guest has arrived and food is mostly ready
23:22:27 <mchua> nmarques: Yes?
23:22:35 <nmarques> mchua, is it possible to jack zodbot for the interview ? :)
23:22:47 <rbergeron> YES!
23:23:08 <rbergeron> or schedule it in #fedora-meeting-1 - look at the meetin room schedule, see if an unused time slot is available
23:23:08 <mchua> #info *please* use zodbot for the interview, it makes your life much easier!
23:23:18 <mchua> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot
23:23:22 <nmarques> mchua, rbergeron thx for the support on this
23:23:33 <nmarques> I'll try to come out with something good :)
23:23:40 <rbergeron> #info be aware of your interviewee's availability - try to make it as easy as can be on them as far as time goes
23:23:49 <nmarques> I'll try my best, let's hope my best is enough ;)
23:23:55 <mchua> #action mchua turn this into a SOP later tonight
23:24:10 <rbergeron> mchua - i'll be around if you want to gobbify before wikify
23:24:14 <mchua> nmarques: Ask questions as you go along, and you'll do fine - it's easy to edit an interview after you've got the text for it. ;)
23:24:48 <mchua> rbergeron: Okeydokey. Might be a fairly long dinner tonight, we have a guest over. But I'll be back afterwards to work on this + cleanup from today's class, so the rest of Marketing can find out what the heck's been going on.
23:25:02 <mchua> rbergeron, nmarques: I gotta jet, so close the logs whenever you're ready.
23:25:05 <mchua> (And thanks to you both!)
23:25:10 * rbergeron nods - i'll be up till 1 or 2 probably, which is about whenyour bedtime usually is anyhow. :)
23:25:12 <nmarques> mchua_afk, go for it
23:25:23 <rbergeron> yep - i'm gonna go make popsicles
23:25:40 <rbergeron> nselson - any other impending questions? :)
23:26:00 <nmarques> rbergeron, not yet, maybe later on, your help has been wonderful alongside with mel
23:26:04 <rbergeron> the interview part / doing questions - like she said - is the important content, we can trim it or fill in with text as needed.
23:26:26 <rbergeron> just ping me if you have questions if you're owrking on it this afternoon - i'll be popping in and out, just yell my nick out :)
23:26:41 <rbergeron> otherwise - i'm gonna close the logs for now
23:26:47 <nmarques> rbergeron, not in this afternoon for sure, it's 00:26 AM ;)
23:26:48 <rbergeron> unless you want to #info to yourself :)
23:26:52 <rbergeron> sounds good
23:26:53 <nmarques> rbergeron, go for it
23:26:54 <rbergeron> i'll catch you later
23:26:57 <rbergeron> #endmeeting