17:30:10 <bexelbie> #startmeeting Mindshare
17:30:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 26 17:30:10 2019 UTC.
17:30:10 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:30:10 <zodbot> The chair is bexelbie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:30:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:30:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'mindshare'
17:30:10 <bexelbie> #chair jsmith sumantrom robyduck nb x3mboy bt0dotninja bexelbie bt0 relrod
17:30:10 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie bt0 bt0dotninja jsmith nb relrod robyduck sumantrom x3mboy
17:30:10 <bexelbie> #topic Roll Call
17:30:10 <bexelbie> .hello bex
17:30:11 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bexelbie@redhat.com>
17:30:43 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> Here with very limited coverage
17:30:52 <x3mboy> .hello2
17:30:53 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
17:30:56 <x3mboy> I'm here
17:31:03 * bexelbie hopes @jaredsmith is on a CZ train between Brno and Prague :P
17:31:08 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> My current location
17:31:13 <tg-fedmindshare> 'Untitled Image' uploaded by j​aredsmith: https://i.imgur.com/uKlQHxx.jpg
17:31:34 * bexelbie sees potential contributors
17:32:41 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Looks awesome
17:33:24 <bexelbie> #topic Agenda
17:33:25 <bexelbie> Proposed: Tickets: 142, 140, 136, 137, 141, next meeting note, and then Open Floor
17:33:25 <bexelbie> Any suggested additions or modifications?
17:33:47 <x3mboy> No from me
17:34:04 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Me neither
17:34:24 <bexelbie> these first three are easy
17:34:24 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> Nothing from me
17:34:27 <bexelbie> #topic #142 Swag request for BalCCon 2k19 (September 2019)
17:34:27 <bexelbie> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/142
17:34:27 <bexelbie> Needs votes
17:34:40 <bexelbie> looks non-controversial
17:35:16 <bexelbie> I am going to keep moving, so we have time for the big ones
17:35:19 <bexelbie> #topic #140 Budget for travelling required for a talk on "Booming Opensource Technologies"
17:35:19 <bexelbie> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/140
17:35:19 <bexelbie> Needs votes
17:35:39 <bexelbie> This one has concerns for me - I am -1 (unvoted right now) but would appreciated the wisdom of others based on what they read
17:35:56 <bexelbie> in fact, I'll vote that so it is there when others vote and I can change it
17:36:05 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Looks very suspicious
17:36:27 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> -1 from me
17:36:51 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> Would prefer to see more Fedora activity first
17:37:03 <bexelbie> I'll add your vote @jaredsmith
17:37:10 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> Thanks
17:37:21 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> I need more information to vote this, 0 from me
17:37:33 <bexelbie> @bt0dotninja can you add that information?
17:37:43 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Sure
17:37:46 <bexelbie> barring any significant updates we can close it next week
17:37:56 <x3mboy> I need more information, 0 from me
17:38:05 <bexelbie> @x3mboy can you update the ticket as well?
17:38:13 * bexelbie did @jaredsmith because he is in the woods :D
17:38:36 <bexelbie> I mean x3mboy ^^ - you're actualy with me in IRC
17:38:49 <x3mboy> Done
17:38:51 <bexelbie> #topic #136 Delete @flockfedora on Twitter
17:38:51 <bexelbie> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/136
17:38:51 <bexelbie> Final comments/objections?
17:38:53 <bexelbie> ty
17:39:03 <x3mboy> Not from me
17:39:05 <bexelbie> This is to stop using this account an point it at @fedora
17:39:19 <bexelbie> conversation died, but we don't really have votes - so I wanted to put it to a meeting before acting
17:39:35 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Ok
17:40:22 <bexelbie> I am skipping 137 in hopes nb will show up
17:40:24 <bexelbie> #topic #141 Dealing with events that don't get event reports
17:40:24 <bexelbie> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/141
17:40:24 <bexelbie> example:  #102 Swag request for FOSSASIA 2019 (March 2019)
17:40:24 <bexelbie> There are lots of comments.  What is our next step to move this forward?
17:42:33 <jwf> I think a draft for a pathway to regain trust would make it easier to drive a productive conversation
17:42:44 <bexelbie> is this something you can start jwf?
17:43:23 <jwf> My bandwidth is really thin. I am happy to provide constructive feedback but I can't lead the charge
17:43:28 <bexelbie> oh ... and a (potential) counter example is the recently filed, but late LFNW report.  I was not concerned there because we had a known personal life issue come up and our contributors should take care of themselves first
17:43:56 <x3mboy> Sure, but always can be communicated it, no?
17:43:58 <bexelbie> jwf fair - do you have a model of what you think that looks like?  In my mind it is a bullet of things you can do .. but all subjective
17:44:08 <bexelbie> x3mboy, yep
17:44:30 <jwf> Sure
17:44:38 <x3mboy> I mean, it's ok if you can't do it for personal reasons, but a message, even via telegram: Hey, I didn't forget, I'm just not able to do it ATM
17:44:54 <bexelbie> jwf then please link it and we can use that to model from ... I figure format will help here and be meaninful
17:45:13 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> We need to decide the best policies avoiding any catch 22 situation
17:45:41 <jwf> Well, actually I would agree with you bexelbie, I think a few bullet points is enough, just to start a conversation about what that pathway is. I think the important detail is that for some contributors, regaining trust through event participation may not be an option
17:46:11 <bexelbie> @bt0dotninja .. I think we can start with a policy based on what we expect and resolve catch-22 when it is raised ... what do you think?
17:46:15 <jwf> I think it's useful not to get caught up in writing a formal policy until there is an agreement, or else it's easy for it to get stuck
17:46:18 <bexelbie> jwf - adding notes to that effect
17:46:40 <x3mboy> Sure, I think the ticket is a great conversation starter
17:46:42 <jwf> I have a few Mindshare tickets to add comments to, I can try to follow up to your replies in the next week bexelbie
17:46:48 <bexelbie> jwf cool
17:46:55 <bexelbie> I am going to add this to this ticket: Per Meeting on 26 June - we need a doc for the trust path to help solidify this.  An option is a set of suggested actions, but recognizing this is subjective.
17:47:20 <bexelbie> hopefully we will get someone with cycles to help draft this - remember editing is easier than creating .. so the draft doesn't need to be perfect
17:47:26 <bexelbie> if Flock settles, I'll try but no promises
17:47:47 <jwf> I think it's easier to think of it as a conversation in the short-term :) What might work, what might not? Then worry about the formal drafting of a policy at the end
17:47:59 <bexelbie> +1
17:48:16 <x3mboy> I could be able to help between tomorrow and past tomorrow, but can't commit
17:48:32 <bexelbie> x3mboy, do not be afraid to put thoughts in the ticket :)
17:48:34 * x3mboy 's birthday is tomorrow
17:48:43 <bexelbie> then focus on growing older :D
17:48:49 <bexelbie> you only get one chance a year!
17:48:50 <jwf> :D
17:48:55 <sumantro> :D
17:49:07 <x3mboy> :D
17:49:19 <bexelbie> I'll move us along - since we have a plan and writing isn't a group activity
17:49:21 <bexelbie> #topic #137 Ambassadors Emeriti proposal
17:49:21 <bexelbie> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/137
17:49:21 <bexelbie> There are lots of comments.  What is our next step to move this forward?
17:49:27 <bexelbie> I was hoping nb would be here for this
17:49:47 <bexelbie> I remain confused about what the title Ambassador means in the project given the amount of effort some seem to put in
17:50:10 <x3mboy> I think we need to split that into the Emeriti Proposal and the Ambassador discussion
17:50:11 <bexelbie> I also worry, from the other side, that the title creates a gatekeeping effect that hurts the participation of non-ambassadors (just like the closed ML does)
17:50:12 <x3mboy> Again
17:51:14 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> @bexelbie Did you see my explanation of the mentorship process?
17:51:24 <x3mboy> We already have the re-structure ambassadors ticket, and we agreed
17:51:39 <bexelbie> @jaredsmith I did
17:51:59 <bexelbie> I am not going to block this up
17:52:11 <bexelbie> here is a reframe that may be the same to you but feels different to me
17:52:14 <x3mboy> But, at least at latam, when we put the budget responsability on Mindshare, the groups fall apart
17:52:22 <x3mboy> It's been month since the last meeting
17:52:33 <bexelbie> An ambassador goes through a mentorship and is expected to be active.  Annually inactive ambassadors become Emeriti.
17:52:49 <bexelbie> I'd like a "new round of mentoring" if you were totally inactive in the project - but no need if you were just doing other things
17:52:54 <bexelbie> and we need to defien mentoring
17:52:57 <bexelbie> does that makes sense?
17:53:05 <bexelbie> x3mboy, what has been the effect of that?
17:53:13 <bexelbie> We had events in LATAM this year
17:53:17 <x3mboy> Well, TBH, dunno
17:53:18 <bexelbie> possibly the same number as last year
17:53:24 <x3mboy> I've been apart of events
17:53:35 <x3mboy> Sure, people is following the right process
17:53:38 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> @bexelbie The mentorship program should be well documented on the wiki, etc.
17:54:08 <x3mboy> They always ask, and I tell them how to go
17:54:08 <bexelbie> @jaredsmith ok, nb should know where that is
17:54:08 <x3mboy> But Ambys will only do events?
17:54:17 <bexelbie> x3mboy not sure I follow
17:54:18 <jwf> I have loosely followed this, but from the Emeritus ticket, I am really confused on the difference of Ambassadors vs. Advocates. I think it is also confusing to have both existing side-by-side, especially if you are a new contributor who does not have the historical context of what these groups do. Because both of them are to represent Fedora.
17:54:18 <x3mboy> Not anything else?
17:54:24 <bexelbie> we have many non-ambassasors doing events
17:54:28 <jwf> I think it is hard to drive the Emeritus discussion for that reason too
17:54:46 <jwf> Because, well, what really is an Ambassador vs. an Advocate?
17:54:50 <jwf> Maybe I have missed an explanation
17:54:53 <bexelbie> I think we have been not using the advocates term and would be +1 to just dropping it
17:55:15 <bexelbie> But I also don't really get hung up on titles and don't need one to do the things I think are important
17:55:31 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> @jwf One is getting started, rest process. The other is formally mentored process, more work involved
17:55:42 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> (edited)@jwf One is getting started, easy process. The other is formally mentored process, more work involved
17:55:51 <x3mboy> I'm not sure. I think we need to clarify the Ambassador role
17:55:56 <x3mboy> And then construct from there
17:56:10 <jwf> I was thinking back to bexelbie's words in a previous comment:
17:56:12 <jwf> "A non-ambassador making a large proposal is not inherently bad. An ambassador making a large proposal is not inherently good. We would judge these each on their individual merits, aiui."
17:56:13 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> I would love to see Advocate as a part of the mentorship process for Ambassador
17:56:41 <jwf> Maybe Ambassadors is not really about representing Fedora as it is about having a mentorship process in the Fedora community to learn the ropes
17:56:46 <jwf> I see a lot of this work in the Join SIG too
17:57:04 <jwf> Sorry, I don't want to steer this conversation way off-topic so feel free to cut me off if it is not helpful
17:57:07 <bexelbie> If our ambassadors were out their mentoring people into the project I woudl be super happy
17:57:10 <bexelbie> I don't think that is happening
17:57:18 <bexelbie> s/their/there/
17:57:22 <x3mboy> That's not happening at all
17:57:34 <x3mboy> Join is doing that better than Ambassadors
17:57:40 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> It's both... It started as a way to learn the ropes *in order to be able to represent Fedora at events*
17:57:41 <bexelbie> I've asked in the past about getting people to respond to folks in their country - and I was told that is an unreasonable expectation too
17:58:08 <bexelbie> If you are going to a LUG - a generalist makes sense.  But if we go to a focused event, I am not sure a generalist is the best fit
17:58:21 <x3mboy> If you ask me, we could drop the whole ambassador role RN, and the project will continue as well: attending events, trying to get contributors, being awesome
17:58:29 <bexelbie> I am also unconvinced that an ambassador who shows up for one event a year and is never seen shoudl be considered "forever qualified"
17:59:12 <bexelbie> x3mboy, it sounds like you feel like that has effectively happend in LATAM - has LATAM been ok?
17:59:51 <jwf> From my POV, Advocates is working well to get events approved and sponsored. I think Mindshare has done a really good job with this compared to a few years ago when regions did this work. But perhaps, the reason people hold onto the Ambassador "title" is because they value the role of mentorship and guidance to enter a community. A lot of the people who I have seen active as mentors do it because of the personal value of bringing
17:59:51 <jwf> someone new into the community
18:00:12 <x3mboy> bexelbie, nope
18:00:14 <jwf> I feel like migrating the Ambassador role into something like the Join SIG would reduce confusion of Ambassador v. Advocate and also really empower the Join SIG to do more awesome work
18:00:14 <x3mboy> It's not
18:00:18 <bexelbie> No one has said to me in a conversation about "getting more events in X country" that they felt the problem was the ambassador program
18:01:01 <bexelbie> jwf I agree with you that more people doing Join SIG work would be huge
18:01:17 <bexelbie> however, I always gathered that ambassador mentorship was about being an ambassador, not about joining
18:01:21 <bexelbie> the community
18:01:35 <jwf> To me, that is the essence of Ambassador work
18:01:46 <jwf> That is, the mentorship to becoming a Fedora contributor
18:01:51 <x3mboy> bexelbie agreed. To be part of the community you just need to show up and volunteer yourself to do stuff
18:02:02 <x3mboy> And then actually do the stuff
18:02:05 <jwf> It's not always the case, but many of the people I see who started as Ambassadors went on to do other things in Fedora community in other sub-projects
18:02:08 <bexelbie> jwf we certainly don't seem to do followup with anyone at our events (in general)
18:02:41 <x3mboy> I need to go, but continue via telegram
18:02:55 <bexelbie> I get very confused by the idea that someone can join a linux distribution community and make no contribution other than being an ambassador - how do they actually know what we do if they have never done any of it?
18:03:01 <bexelbie> especially if this is their first linux?
18:03:32 <bexelbie> how would you mentor someone to join and do anything other than be an ambassador
18:03:34 <bexelbie> ?
18:03:58 <jwf> I am not convinced it is impossible. We empower people to do release parties and that could be a first task for someone even if it is their first distro or FOSS community
18:04:16 <bexelbie> With other communities, I gather they want users first and foremost.  So we need people who can talk about, say, Firefox.  And Firefox is a mostly understandable piece of sofwtare, so I can teach the advanced bits
18:04:24 <bexelbie> but Fedora feels different, mabye wrongly so
18:04:53 <bexelbie> jwf agreed, but we dont' expect them to convert anyone to a contributor or to joining our community from those
18:05:10 <bexelbie> And that is part of why we pulled those out and said anyone can do them, not just ambassadors
18:05:14 <jwf> Right, I agree
18:05:23 <jwf> I think I am confused to where you are driving to
18:05:54 <bexelbie> jwf you seemed to indicate that people can join our project and the first thing they do is ambassador and you then said you've seen some people move on to other areas
18:05:58 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Using it is enough to be part of the community?
18:06:03 <bexelbie> I am convinced byt he "join and become ambassador first" part
18:06:15 <jwf> Ah. I don't think I explained myself clearly
18:06:21 <jwf> When I say Ambassador, I really think of two things
18:06:45 <jwf> The mentorship model of one experienced contributor working personally with someone to help them learn the ropes (much like the Join SIG does)
18:07:04 <jwf> And the participation to represent Fedora at events or to run local events in a community (much like Advocates do)
18:07:43 <jwf> I cannot think of Ambassadors without those two roles, but I already see those roles happening in other places in the community: Join SIG and Advocates
18:07:48 <bexelbie> Ahh, when I say Ambassador, I think of the "mentored by anotehr ambassador and tested to become an ambassador" then "supposed to be regularly holding events and marketing/attracting people to the project"
18:08:13 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> That's what it was supposed to be
18:08:16 <jwf> I think it's helpful to untie mentorship from event organizing
18:08:21 <bexelbie> That is what I was told when I became an Ambassador - and I don't think it matches with reality for the vast majority of the people calling themselves ambassadors
18:08:25 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> I'm more agreed with bexelbie's view
18:08:44 <jwf> We put a lot of resources into mentoring specifically for events, when really there are many places we could stand to mentor people. Fedora Docs, Fedora Design, packaging, etc.
18:08:45 <bexelbie> jwf there are two different unrelated acts of mentorship here
18:08:47 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Sure! You finally hit the nail!
18:08:49 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> But then the red tape off actually getting events approved complicated things
18:09:25 <bexelbie> @jaredsmith now that we have fixed that red tape (I think) - how do we reboot that definition of ambassador?
18:09:35 <bexelbie> right now we can't even get peopel to agree that they should ahve to even one event a year
18:10:01 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> There are tons of contributors being more ambassador than the people that have the ambassador title
18:10:20 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> By having the title I mean, that are in the ambassador FAS group
18:10:45 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> @bexelbie if the red tape is fixed, is there a need to change the other parts?
18:11:24 <bexelbie> people keep saying there is - we keep hearing about no meetings in latam or moaning about no active ambassadors
18:11:42 <bexelbie> I haven't heard the "no mentoring available" or "mean mentors" stuff lately
18:11:54 <jwf> Does it make sense to spend time and energy into rebooting Ambassadors (which in my eyes, has similar aspirations as today's Advocates and Join SIG), or working to untie the role of mentorship from event organizing to better enable the existing groups like Advocates and Join SIG?
18:12:02 <bexelbie> We also have two seats in Mindshare consumed by Ambassadors
18:12:07 <bexelbie> and we don't know how to re-elect them
18:12:12 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Actually the problem of mentoring was kind of solved in latam
18:12:26 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Last year we promote 2 new ambys to mentors
18:12:38 <bexelbie> jwf please specify what mentoring you want to untie from events, "join the community" or "become an ambassador"?
18:12:54 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> The no-meeting is not actually a problem itself
18:13:28 <jwf> bexelbie: I see Ambassadors as linked: "join the community" in order to "represent Fedora at events".
18:13:31 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> It's the disconnection between the so called ambassadors and the other parts of the project, like mktg and docs
18:13:49 <jwf> What Ambassadors do differently from Join SIG and Advocates is what puzzles me in 2019
18:13:55 <bexelbie> jwf I do not think that at all, aiui the ambassador mentorship is solely "become an ambassador"
18:14:20 <jwf> I think that might be our messaging to people who don't have the long history of Ambassadors, Mindshare, and Advocates
18:14:28 <bexelbie> x3mboy, so now we have 2+ mentors in latam and how many ambassadors?  Are they holding events? why not?
18:15:00 <jwf> bexelbie: Could you help me understand what Ambassadors and Advocates do differently?
18:15:18 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Yes, I think they are. We are just disconnected between each other
18:15:21 <bexelbie> jwf my understanding is that Join SIG is partially a reaction to ambassadors.  Ambassadors closely defined themselves as "run events" and didn't, in general, do any followup, answer email or engage online (exceptions definitely exist).
18:15:29 <bexelbie> then so much red tape came up no one could get anything approved
18:15:30 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> But, like I said, that's not necessarily a problem
18:15:49 <bexelbie> so we rebooted that with Mindshare and because people like names ... said advocates can hold events
18:15:54 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Like I stated in the ticket, the problem is that you can't be an ambassador of something you don't know
18:16:07 <bexelbie> mostly as a gift to the ambassadors so their title was "sullied" with people who hadn't gone through mentoring holding events
18:16:36 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> And it's super easy: enter the latam IRC channel and ask what is modularity?
18:16:41 <bexelbie> Now we seem to be at a point where events are being held, the red tape is minimal and Join SIG is helping people join
18:16:56 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> With some luck, someone will send you a link to the modularity page
18:17:18 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> And it's, AFAIK and completed objective of the Fedora project
18:17:36 <bexelbie> completed no, but shipping yes
18:18:19 <bexelbie> I think my big desire from this whole process is to either have active ambassadors holding events or to not have ambassadors gate keeping and absorbing the energy of the project
18:18:40 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Agreed
18:18:44 <jwf> Agreed too
18:18:45 <bexelbie> I'd like two active members of mindshare, ambassadors or not.  NB has been active, but Robert is admitted as inactive, but we have no way to replace those seats
18:19:13 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Please don't say that out loud
18:19:19 <bexelbie> I would like to not see another ticket from an ambassador asking for funding to an event "because we did it for the last 10 years" but with actual reasons and ability to show they are the right person
18:19:27 <jwf> So if I understand correctly, specific for event organizing, Ambassadors have a process with a lot of red tape to organize an event. Advocates have a process without a lot of red tape to organize events. Is this accurate?
18:19:35 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Also agreed
18:19:43 <bexelbie> x3mboy, I don't want to see nb go - but I would like to see the community have impact on those seats
18:19:55 <bexelbie> jwf now, no
18:20:07 <bexelbie> jwf now everyone has a friction free process because the process is the same .. Mindshare
18:20:14 <bexelbie> Ambassadors don't make those decisions anymore red tape gone
18:20:34 <jwf> What makes event organizing different for Ambassadors vs. Advocates?
18:20:36 <bexelbie> We have one region (NA) that still manages a small pool of swag that they don't want to let be used by anyone else
18:20:45 <bexelbie> jwf AIUI, in reality nothing
18:20:52 <jwf> I see
18:21:00 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Nothing
18:21:02 <bexelbie> on paper, ambassadors are the only people allowed to request larger sums (a concession)
18:21:05 <bexelbie> but it isn't enforced
18:21:17 <bexelbie> and I'd +1 the Pr to remove that statement
18:21:23 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> And not necessarily the best thing either
18:21:31 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> I'm +1 to that too
18:21:44 <jwf> bexelbie: Not currently, it also includes experienced contributors: "While anyone can hold or attend a large Fedora-related event, these events are typically done by experienced Fedora contributors and or existing Fedora Ambassadors." https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/mindshare-committee/large-events/
18:21:46 <bexelbie> I think event approval is somethign Mindshare has done a damn fine job at
18:21:50 <bexelbie> and we should all be proud of that
18:21:58 <jwf> +1
18:22:09 <jwf> To me, I see Advocates as a successful step in the right direction
18:22:17 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> I think anyone with some trust and a really good explanation of what the event is/will be, should be able to ask for an amount of money
18:22:20 <jwf> I am really confused in 2019 about what Ambassadors is/are
18:22:33 <bexelbie> you and me both jwf
18:22:44 <bexelbie> but I am open to listening as I know you are
18:22:58 <jwf> I think Ambassadors as a "title" generally should be retired and resources/time/energy should be funneled to support Advocates and Join SIG-like work
18:23:16 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> I support that
18:23:23 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Totally agree with jwf
18:23:28 <jwf> I don't see value in discarding Advocates. Because a lot of work has gone into that identity and effort
18:23:35 <jwf> And dropping that name, I think, introduces more confusion
18:23:37 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> As I say in #fedora-latam, the advocate figure looks better because it's an already active contributor than wants to give a talk
18:23:40 <bexelbie> we seem to be doing an ok job vetting events too - we have one event that doesn't have an event report and is super late
18:23:46 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> That doesn't mean that people can't stay together as regions
18:23:48 <bexelbie> I am not saying they were all great events, but we are asking questions
18:23:55 <jwf> Yes! :)
18:24:05 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Good
18:24:16 <bexelbie> jwf I don't knwo that a lot of work has gone in to that name (Advocates) but I am not going to block keeping it
18:24:41 <jwf> I think retiring the Ambassadors title is better because that name means a lot of things to a lot of people
18:24:50 <jwf> And some of those things may not be accurate in 2019
18:24:55 <bexelbie> @x3mboy - I think regions are important when peopel come together to influence their region and coordinate or work together to solve challenges for each other
18:25:02 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Right
18:25:12 <bexelbie> but I think they could be more organic than the four RH sales region we use today
18:25:27 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Agreed
18:25:34 <bexelbie> and I would never, for example (and I use this because my geography is bad) forbid an MX rep from working South or North of their country
18:25:42 <bexelbie> and I would happy to see MX folks working in both directions
18:25:56 <jwf> I personally do not see the structure of Advocates saying that can't be done
18:26:03 <bexelbie> jwf I agree
18:26:16 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Conclusions?
18:26:39 <jwf> I think there is value in letting regional communities have the power to self-organize in a way that makes sense for them. For example, all of the regional IRC/Telegram groups and chats that are really a place to hang out and chat with other Fedora-interested people who speak your language or live in your country
18:26:50 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Drop ambys, inject more energy into advocates and Join, and then wait for the hate?
18:26:58 <bexelbie> x3mboy :D
18:27:08 <bexelbie> jwf yes +100 - especially because those aren't inherently tied to old amby work
18:27:23 * bexelbie debates learning spanish and chinese just to follow those active chats
18:27:26 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> +1 too
18:27:29 * bexelbie then remembers he has no time
18:27:35 <jwf> @x3mboy: My vote-less suggestion is as you said. But not waiting for hate, I think messaging is important about why this is
18:27:41 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> -1 from me
18:27:43 <jwf> bexelbie: Come practice at Flock ;)
18:28:00 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Also, TBH now in person events are coming less frequent
18:28:06 <tg-fedmindshare> <j​aredsmith> I still think Ambassadors play a viral role
18:28:09 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> People is online now
18:28:15 <bexelbie> @jaredsmith I'd like to hear more - and I think that it is unfair to make you do it on a phone
18:28:23 <bexelbie> are you ok with us tabling this for now as we are also out of time
18:28:26 <bexelbie> and taking it up by email?
18:28:33 <bexelbie> or in the ticket?
18:28:35 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Or ticket
18:28:35 <jwf> It would be helpful to take this to the ticket I think
18:29:00 <jwf> I could take one action item to summarize this discussion from the meeting into the ticket…
18:29:02 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> My suggestion is, block emeriti ticket, and open a new one with this discussion
18:29:18 <jwf> That also works
18:29:21 <bexelbie> jwf can you do that - open a new ticket with the summary?
18:29:34 <bexelbie> @jaredsmith do you mind being the first reply there when you are back from the hinterlands?
18:29:38 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Mexico has regular meetings every month
18:29:51 <jwf> Yes. I'll go ahead and head AFK now since I want to do it while this is fresh and I have a hard offline stop in 30m
18:29:51 <bexelbie> @bt0dotninja of ambys? cool
18:30:00 <bexelbie> jwf thank you jwf
18:30:02 <jwf> I think this was a productive discussion :)
18:30:29 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> Efren Robledo and I As a bus organize the meetups
18:30:34 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> That's something I'm interested. Can you honestly say that everyone in Mexico region that contribute to Fedora, knows and attend those meetings?
18:31:05 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> I can't x3mboy
18:31:22 <bexelbie> I am going to close the meeting unless you all want to continue logging some
18:31:25 * bexelbie has a hard stop
18:31:35 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Close it
18:31:37 <tg-fedmindshare> <b​t0dotninja> The statistics for my country are bad
18:31:41 <bexelbie> Thank you all for coming!
18:31:43 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> We can continue chatting
18:31:47 <bexelbie> I look forward to this ticket :)
18:31:54 <tg-fedmindshare> <x​3mboy> Thanks for this good convo
18:32:08 <bexelbie> enjoy your hike @jaredsmith and happy birthday @x3mboy
18:32:11 <bexelbie> #endmeeting