15:00:01 <bcotton> #startmeeting Council (2023-03-01)
15:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar  1 15:00:01 2023 UTC.
15:00:01 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:00:01 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
15:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2023-03-01)'
15:00:11 <t0xic0der> .hello t0xic0der
15:00:13 <zodbot> t0xic0der: t0xic0der 'Akashdeep Dhar' <akashdeep.dhar@gmail.com>
15:00:17 <bcotton> ooh, so close
15:00:20 <bcotton> #meetingname council
15:00:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
15:00:24 <bcotton> #chair dcantrell siddharthvipul1 jwf bookwar mattdm bcotton sumantrom bt0 t0xic0der
15:00:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bt0 dcantrell siddharthvipul1 jwf bookwar mattdm bcotton sumantrom t0xic0der
15:00:30 <bcotton> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
15:00:43 <bcotton> Hello, everyone, and welcome to meteorological spring in the northern hemisphere
15:00:46 <dcantrell> .hello2
15:00:47 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
15:01:25 <t0xic0der> A spike in humidity here in places near the equator
15:02:22 * jwf waves
15:02:22 <bcotton> I read that as "a spike in humanity" and clearly I did not make enough coffee this morning
15:02:24 <jwf> Welcome to March
15:02:33 <AkashdeepDhar[m]> A spike of humanity would be nice, not gonna lie
15:02:44 <mattdm> hi all
15:03:08 <mattdm> sorry i'm late busy being annoyed at RH internal slack for not being willing to update the wrong fedora logo emoji they have
15:03:33 <bcotton> that's it. they don't get to use Fedora Linux for CSB then
15:04:00 <VipulSiddharth[m> .hello siddharthvipul1
15:04:01 * SumantroMukherje is here
15:04:01 <zodbot> VipulSiddharth[m: siddharthvipul1 'Vipul Siddharth' <siddharthvipul1@gmail.com>
15:04:29 <jwf> It's a party 🎉
15:04:31 <AkashdeepDhar[m]> bcotton: Come on now. Give them an older release but give em something ;P
15:04:39 <jwf> Ah, I forgot Element does that :P
15:06:11 <bcotton> okay, let's get this party started
15:06:15 <bcotton> #topic Today's agenda
15:06:15 <bcotton> #info Reminders
15:06:15 <bcotton> #info CName and SSL cert for component-registry.fedoraproject.org
15:06:19 <bcotton> #info Mindshare representative status
15:06:19 <bcotton> #info Open ticket review
15:06:19 <bcotton> #info Your topics here!
15:06:25 <bcotton> #topic Reminders
15:06:29 <bcotton> #help Please fill out the WhenIsGood for the new Council meeting time
15:06:29 <bcotton> #link https://whenisgood.net/nnqghp7
15:06:29 <bcotton> #info Only 5 responses so far!
15:06:58 <bcotton> If you don't tell me when a good time for you is, I will tell you what a good time for you is :-)
15:07:10 <bcotton> #help Please participate in the Strategy2028 discussions
15:07:10 <bcotton> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tag/strategy2028
15:07:23 <bcotton> mattdm: did you want to say more about the strategy posts or is this enough?
15:07:39 <mattdm> i have a little bit :)
15:07:59 <mattdm> the next "focus area review" post is coming out later today
15:08:05 <mattdm> (almost ready0
15:08:19 <mattdm> it's actually 4 posts -- one for the overall focus area, one for each objective
15:08:32 <mattdm> this is "reaching the world" -- preinstalled systems, cloud/ci, and global communities
15:08:40 <mattdm> It definitely feels a bit like a grab-bag :)
15:09:02 <mattdm> Aleksandra Fedorova: I'd appreciate in particular if you could reply when that comes out and expand on the CI point
15:09:45 <mattdm> I'm actually a little bit disposed towards merging cloud/ci back with preisntalled hardware, and adding an onboarding experience objective
15:09:46 <mattdm> which I know Justin W. Flory (he/him) is interested in too....
15:09:53 <mattdm> so here's the place to do -- or not do -- that :)
15:11:07 <bcotton> EOF?
15:11:29 <mattdm> EOM
15:11:40 <bcotton> any other reminders before we move on?
15:12:01 <mattdm> To myself: I hope to get the future ones of these scheduled to run on mondays
15:12:17 <mattdm> Next ones should be easier because they all kind of follow a template
15:12:19 <AkashdeepDhar[m]> Umm about the next meeting being a call and about the Fedora Websites and Apps Community Survey results?
15:12:38 <bcotton> that's at the end :-)
15:13:13 <AkashdeepDhar[m]> Alrighty then. Nothing else I gues
15:13:17 <bcotton> #topic CName and SSL cert for component-registry.fedoraproject.org
15:13:17 <bcotton> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11143
15:13:42 <bcotton> this was a last-night addition, so i haven't had a chance to read it in detail yet
15:14:13 * jwf clicks
15:15:19 <mattdm> uh, yeah, I should explain :)
15:15:25 <bcotton> please do
15:15:34 <mattdm> This is a service that generates SBOMs -- "software bill of materials"
15:15:54 <mattdm> this is hot %$%#% in the software supply chain ... world? ... yes, world
15:16:24 <mattdm> Red Hat is working on a thing -- a service. They would like to try upstream-firsting their service. I said that sounds like a great idea.
15:16:37 <mattdm> (It will be all open source.)
15:17:35 <mattdm> I probably jumped the gun in saying "cool, yes let's do that"
15:18:17 <mattdm> But candidly it's so hard to get people to do the right thing here (in the face of whatever business pressures they have) that I was very excited to have someone show up eager to Just Do It
15:18:23 <jwf> I'm wondering what the deliverable is for this? Like what is the consumable object at the end? RPMs? Containers? I'm trying to understand what this looks like for the community and who would use it?
15:18:40 <bcotton> the "and Openstack RDO" in the ticket makes me think this is not a Fedora thing
15:18:44 <bcotton> also what Justin said
15:18:51 <dcantrell> mattdm: for things like this, there is a strong business push to do the thing quickly for the customer and then figure out the open source part later since that always feels "hard" for some people
15:19:17 <mattdm> dcantrell: yes exactly
15:19:20 <mattdm> https://github.com/RedHatProductSecurity/component-registry/blob/main/docs/user_guide.md
15:19:57 <dcantrell> I really wish we could come up with better communication in general that helps people understand "open source first" really should be at the start of any new project, not something you bolt on later.  But here we are.
15:20:03 <mattdm> The consumable object is a big ol' bunch of json
15:20:12 <dcantrell> nom nom nom json
15:20:25 <mattdm> dcantrell: yes. This is better than most
15:20:46 <dcantrell> mention of json makes me feel obligated to spread information about DSON:  https://dogeon.xyz/
15:20:51 <dcantrell> everyone should be using this in place of JSON
15:21:14 <bcotton> so none of this conversation tells me why this should be on the fedoraproject dot org domain
15:21:16 <dcantrell> support exists in Fedora as libcdson...and rpminspect supports Doge-compatible config files, thus making it more dog friendly
15:21:50 <jwf> mattdm: Sort of seems like… Anitya?
15:22:41 <mattdm> Justin W. Flory (he/him): This is about what goes _into_ each thing. it's like a reverse PDC :)
15:22:50 <mattdm> Ben Cotton (he/him): give me a sec here
15:23:25 <jwf> mattdm: So, seeing some-nodejs-library@v1.33.7 is in Fedora 36, Fedora 37, Rawhide, EPEL 9, CentOS Stream 9, etc?
15:24:10 <mattdm> I don't think it's revealing any company secrets to say: Red Hat is working to change from being a "here's the bits, pay us for them" company to a "there are a bunch of bits of various types, and we provide incredibly valuable services around them" company.
15:24:30 <jwf> (Context for Anitya for the unaware: https://release-monitoring.org/ )
15:24:31 <mattdm> (jwf wait plz)
15:24:38 <dcantrell> honestly, that's sort of the next evolutionary step for a company like us
15:25:07 <mattdm> In the current world, Fedora is pretty firmly and comfortably ensconced in the critical path. yay us -- we have influence and get attention and resources.
15:25:08 <dcantrell> I, for one, welcome these various bunch of bits
15:25:20 <dcantrell> wait, you guys get resources?
15:25:28 <mattdm> Also, Red Hat wants to continue to do whatever Red Hat does in an open source, upstream first way.
15:25:38 <mattdm> That's being made up as we go along.
15:26:09 <mattdm> There is no automatic reason Fedora ends up important at all in that future.
15:26:49 <mattdm> But we're actually set up pretty well for it -- we have the same needs
15:27:06 <mattdm> and to what dcantrell says, it could be a next evolutionary step for a _project_ like us
15:27:22 <dcantrell> indeed
15:27:47 <mattdm> I guess the short version is: I want to be the project that says 'yes' here, when people come to us wanting to try stuff out.
15:28:01 <mattdm> we could put them on some other domain (fedorainfracloud or whatever?)
15:28:24 <jwf> That makes sense. But what is "community data" vs. Red Hat data in the context of the original ask?
15:28:24 <mattdm> but... I don't think that does anything except make us feel more distant
15:28:25 <bcotton> what I'm still not understanding is the "what are we trying out?" part
15:28:47 <jwf> > "This project is funded by Red Hat, and is already deployed within the Red Hat firewall. However we also have an agreement with Matt Miller that we will be able to use the fedoraproject.org domain to host community data outside of the Red Hat firewall."
15:28:50 <mattdm> ben -- you mean, what the service is?
15:28:53 <jwf> That is the part I want to better understand
15:29:06 <jwf> Also, s/Matt/Matthew :P
15:29:26 <bcotton> yes, to the question justin asked earlier: who is going to use this? how? Why?
15:29:27 <mattdm> there is an internal, business, RH-data version of this service. for RHEL.
15:29:43 <mattdm> they want to run a community version equivalent
15:30:15 <dcantrell> I think it's ok if Fedora doesn't have a direct use for it right now, it's more this is a community where this upstream work should exist
15:30:32 <mattdm> I think "do you have the sboms" is shortly going to be table stakes for a distro. so _we_ can use that.
15:30:35 <mattdm> +1 dcantrell
15:31:11 <dcantrell> if Fedora does not do this, it can lead to other fractured upstream communities that seem weird and unusual when placed next to Fedora
15:31:17 <dcantrell> e.g., ansible, jboss....
15:31:36 <dcantrell> (i.e., fractured from Fedora....Fedora being the umbrella for upstream work)
15:32:16 <mattdm> my thinking is: let's get it there, and then we can work to get it integrated with community processes, contribution, operate first, etc.
15:32:45 <mattdm> the alternative is to demand a bunch of things first, and then hope that they don't walk away
15:32:45 <jwf> Not to get too much into the Red Hat end of things in what is a Fedora meeting, but I also know "community version" is a loaded term at Red Hat. I am all for people trying and building things upstream and working inside Fedora, but I also want to make sure someone isn't engineering an application that isn't actually useful for your average developers or OSPOs or whoever the target audience is for this. Whatever is coming into Fedora shouldn't
15:32:45 <jwf> just be random bits but also useful bits. I'm not saying this is specific thing is or isn't, but I want to make sure there is value for the Fedora community, and that the Fedora community isn't an afterthought.
15:33:00 <jwf> * Not to get too much into the Red Hat end of things in what is a Fedora meeting, but I also know "community version" is a loaded term at Red Hat. I am all for people trying and building things upstream and working inside Fedora, but I also want to make sure someone isn't engineering an application that isn't actually useful for your average developers or OSPOs or whoever the target audience is for this. Whatever is coming into Fedora shouldn't
15:33:00 <jwf> just be random bits but also useful bits. I'm not saying this specific thing is or isn't useful, but I want to make sure there is value for the Fedora community, and that the Fedora community isn't an afterthought.
15:33:31 <bcotton> i still don't understand what you're trying to tell me. it seems like a lot of vague words with no actual substance. but basically the only thing they're asking of us is for a DNS entry so sure, i don't care. if Infra is okay with it, then I'm okay with it
15:33:58 <mattdm> Justin W. Flory (he/him): I think this will be useful and I think the people working on it _want_ it to be useful
15:34:00 <jwf> I'm basically in the same spot as Ben here
15:34:12 <mattdm> Ben Cotton (he/him): I will take that 0 vote for now and we can talk more later
15:34:18 <mattdm> anyone -1?
15:34:27 <dcantrell> I'm +1
15:34:31 <jwf> mattdm: I'm willing to trust your feeling that there is a genuine willingness to work upstream and try to do things right.
15:34:35 <SumantroMukherje> +1
15:34:36 <mattdm> (i am also +1)
15:34:41 <mattdm> thanks Justin :)
15:35:49 <jwf> My feedback is I don't want there to be some half-baked "community" thing that nobody wants to touch (and tied to our Fedora brand) while there is some butt-kicking, amazing RHEL-centered version that is only available to Red Hat customers
15:36:08 <jwf> As long as Fedora can get a butt-kicking, amazing Fedora-centered thing, I'm in
15:37:04 <mattdm> yeah. I'll relay that back.
15:37:11 <jwf> I guess I am +0.5? Which rounds up to +1 :P
15:37:25 <mattdm> cool. next agenda item?
15:37:29 <bcotton> okay, are we ready to move on?
15:37:43 <jwf> 👍️
15:38:31 <bcotton> #topic Mindshare representative status
15:38:32 <bcotton> the other thing mattdm added
15:38:54 <bcotton> actually, wait
15:38:55 <bcotton> #undo
15:38:55 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x7f5be3e799b0>
15:38:57 <jwf> Psychhhhh
15:39:11 <bcotton> #agreed There are no objections to the cname request so long as Infra is okay with it
15:39:14 <bcotton> okay, now!
15:39:16 <bcotton> #topic Mindshare representative status
15:39:18 <bcotton> let's try this again
15:39:18 <mattdm> :)
15:39:41 <mattdm> as I understand from the Council F2F, Alberto is stepping back from the role.
15:40:07 <jwf> bt0dotninja++ times one thousand
15:40:07 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for bt0dotninja changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:40:45 <SumantroMukherje> bt0dotninja++
15:41:29 <bcotton> is there....record of this somewhere? I don't see a mindshare ticket about it and he's still on the docs as a Mindshare Committee member
15:42:08 <bcotton> (i took away the same understanding from the F2F, but we seem to be in a Schrödinger's Representative state at the moment)
15:42:30 <jwf> I guess that is on me for due diligence with Mindshare
15:42:56 <jwf> I have about 15 tabs of follow-ups from yesterday's Mindshare meeting, so I can follow up and make a ticket to track this
15:43:07 <jwf> I also don't know if it was mentioned other than the CommOps Pagure tracker
15:43:30 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/305
15:44:02 <jwf> This should also be a Mindshare ticket most probably
15:44:02 <mattdm> we should have either something from Alberto or from Mindshare officially...
15:44:02 <mattdm> yeah.
15:45:01 <bcotton> I guess I'm not sure what the action for the Council is here. Mindshare decides their rep, so unless we want to formally vote Alberto off the island, what's there for us to do?
15:45:10 <jwf> I'm not sure if this is anything more than #action jwf to do my job or if there is more?
15:45:54 <mattdm> I think #action jwf is fine for now... escalate if nothing happens...
15:46:10 <mattdm> because we do need an active Mindshare rep
15:46:11 * jwf wonders what escalation looks like 🙂
15:46:15 <jwf> Yeah, it is definitely a priority
15:46:31 <jwf> For deeper context, I want to have more 1:1 time with each Mindshare Committee member
15:46:42 <jwf> And better understand some of these team health challenges that are there now
15:46:54 <jwf> I can't promise it will be fast, but it is something important and a priority for me
15:47:20 <mattdm> For the record here, "Mindshare rep" (as we discussed at the Council F2F) isn't just "representing the mindshare commitee" but should have a bigger role covering the non-engineering parts of the project as a whole (which we call "mindshare" for lack of a better term honestly)
15:47:22 <jwf> The last couple weeks, I have mostly been in 2022 emails from things that fell off my list and then also trying to get things ready for SCaLE next week which I forgot about and our event box is missing…
15:47:27 <mattdm> (tempted to #info that.)
15:48:00 <bcotton> use #info liberally, plz
15:48:05 <jwf> jwf: To say, I haven't given the Mindshare stuff my full focus since coming back from Frankfurt, but I really do intend to make space for that in March. It needs to happen 🤷
15:48:15 <mattdm> #info For the record here, "Mindshare rep" (as we discussed at the Council F2F) isn't just "representing the mindshare commitee" but should have a bigger role covering the non-engineering parts of the project as a whole (which we call "mindshare" for lack of a better term honestly)
15:49:28 <mattdm> Does scott williams have the event box? maybe! :)
15:50:07 <jwf> mattdm: The common denominator here is that it is _most likely_ in California—but this is off-topic for the meeting :P
15:50:25 <jwf> I think we can move to the next topic along with an action for me to update docs / make a Mindshare ticket for the Council rpe
15:50:28 <jwf> * rep
15:50:58 <bcotton> #action jflory7 to Make a Mindshare ticket for a new Council rep and update docs
15:51:15 <jwf> 👍️
15:51:49 <bcotton> i don't think we have time to go through tickets in a meaningful way at this point, so next time!
15:52:01 <bcotton> #topic Next meeting
15:52:01 <bcotton> #info The next regular business meeting is Wednesday 15 March, unless we settle on a new schedule before then
15:52:36 <dtometzki> YmBQPoqbc7Cwwri1NkXB
15:52:40 <mattdm> I, for one, will be in spain.
15:52:49 <bcotton> #info The next video meeting is Wednesday 8 March, featuring Akashdeep Dhar talking about the Web & Apps community survey results
15:52:49 <bcotton> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Council/Video_Meetings
15:52:50 <bcotton> #topic Do we have anything to announce?
15:52:50 <bcotton> #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities
15:53:37 <mattdm> there is the readout from the f2f, yeah?
15:53:45 <jwf> The FCAIC -> FCA CommBlog article is finally coming tomorrow.
15:53:53 <jwf> mattdm: This too
15:54:14 <mattdm> justin do you have new badge designs in the works? :)
15:54:31 <bcotton> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-1/2023-02-28/council.2023-02-28-21.05.html
15:54:37 <jwf> mattdm: https://pagure.io/fedora-badges/issue/894
15:54:57 <bcotton> #info A Community Blog post about the Hackfest is in the works
15:55:02 <bcotton> is there anything we don't have planned that needs announcement?
15:55:03 <jwf> bcotton: Is this you Ben Cotton (he/him)?
15:55:20 <mattdm> only unknown unknowns
15:55:42 <bcotton> excellent
15:55:55 <bcotton> anything else before we #endmeeting?
15:56:19 <jwf> mattdm: Maybe not now, but after some time, a CommBlog post to summarize where we are with the strategy discussions would be nice… there has been a lot of output from the hackfest, and I suspect I wouldn't be the only one who feels this way
15:56:29 <jwf> But maybe after a month more of getting feedback in Discussion?
15:56:42 <jwf> bcotton: Not really but I think Akashdeep Dhar had some topics?
15:56:46 <AkashdeepDhar[m]> #info The commblog about our participation in FOSDEM is now in review and will be published shortly
15:56:50 <jwf> * Not really from me but I
15:56:55 <mattdm> yeah, I think another commblog post when we get to the next planning phase
15:57:07 <AkashdeepDhar[m]> jwf: Ah, the one that Ben Cotton (he/him) mentioned of
15:57:17 <AkashdeepDhar[m]> About the next meeting being about the Websites and Apps Community Survey results
15:57:23 <jwf> bcotton: bcotton++
15:57:23 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for bcotton changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:57:40 <jwf> AkashdeepDhar[m]: t0xic0der++
15:57:40 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for t0xic0der changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:57:47 <jwf> Let the cookies rain
15:58:06 <t0xic0der> bcotton++
15:58:06 <zodbot> t0xic0der: Karma for bcotton changed to 5 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:58:10 <bcotton> alrighty, sounds like we're done here
15:58:12 <bcotton> thanks everyone
15:58:19 <jwf> Thanks for chairing Ben!
15:58:24 <bcotton> #endmeeting