17:00:27 <pboyHB> #startmeeting fedora-server
17:00:27 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov 17 17:00:27 2021 UTC.
17:00:27 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:27 <zodbot> The chair is pboyHB. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
17:00:27 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:27 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-server'
17:00:38 <pboyHB> #topic Welcome / roll call
17:00:49 <pboyHB> Welcome to our Server WG IRC meeting!
17:01:00 <pboyHB> As usual, we'll give a few minutes for folks to show up
17:01:02 <davdunc[m> .hi
17:01:02 <zodbot> davdunc[m: Error: Missing "]".  You may want to quote your arguments with double quotes in order to prevent extra brackets from being evaluated as nested commands.
17:01:16 <pboyHB> Please, everybody who is lurking, say either .hello2 or .hello <fasname>
17:01:17 <davdunc[m> ".hi"
17:01:27 <davdunc[m> hmm.
17:01:31 <pboyHB> I’ll post the agenda in a few minutes.
17:01:51 <davdunc> .hi2
17:01:58 <davdunc> .hello2
17:01:59 <zodbot> davdunc: davdunc 'David Duncan' <davdunc@amazon.com>
17:02:03 <davdunc> finally!
17:02:13 <pboyHB> hi  davdunc
17:02:36 <pboyHB> zodbot takes it seriously
17:02:41 <pboyHB> :-)
17:02:43 <davdunc> o/ pboyHB I thought it was about time I showed up!
17:03:02 <pboyHB> Yes, thanks
17:04:00 <pboyHB> mowest: Hi, nice to meet you
17:04:10 <mowest[m]> Great to be here.
17:04:25 <pboyHB> I post the agenda
17:04:34 <pboyHB> #topic Agenda
17:04:43 <pboyHB> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/report/Meeting
17:04:50 <pboyHB> 1. Follow up actions, none today, skipping
17:04:57 <pboyHB> 2. Moving Wiki Pages to docs.fedoraproject.org
17:05:06 <pboyHB> 3. Synchronize Server full install and net install iso images
17:05:14 <pboyHB> 4. Revisiting "Software Selection" options in Server Installation
17:05:21 <pboyHB> 5. Fedora Server Edition default editor
17:05:28 <pboyHB> 6. Facilitated and improved support for Fedora Server Edition VMs
17:05:35 <pboyHB> 7. Open Floor
17:05:56 <pboyHB> #topic Moving Wiki Pages to docs.fedoraproject.org
17:06:03 <pboyHB> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/52
17:06:12 <pboyHB> I'm pulling this item ahead because we'll probably get through it quickly.
17:06:20 <pboyHB> #proposed Server WG decides to initiate the move from Wiki to docs.fedoraproject.org.
17:06:23 <davdunc[m> I mean, could there be a better location for them?
17:06:29 <pboyHB> Floor is open
17:06:54 <pboyHB> What do you mean by "better location"?
17:06:58 <davdunc[m> is there a reason to keep them on the wiki at this point?
17:07:02 <jwhimpel> .hello
17:07:02 <zodbot> jwhimpel: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
17:07:22 <jwhimpel> .hello jwhimpel
17:07:23 <zodbot> jwhimpel: jwhimpel 'John Himpel' <john@jlhimpel.net>
17:07:26 <mowest[m]> I agree that it would unifi the Server Docs if we had everything where they are moving the Workstation docs.
17:07:49 <davdunc[m> yes. I think it's consistent with the Fedora Project as a whole.
17:07:54 <pboyHB> davdunc: The general policy is to move away from wiki.
17:08:35 <pboyHB> jwhimpel: hi. Many thanks for your wildfly efforts!
17:08:44 <mowest[m]> As I look at the Server Docs would there need to be some reorganization to get all of the Wiki topics into the Server docs that are currently on docs.fedoraproject.org?
17:09:40 <mowest[m]> Workstation has "Quick Docs" which are like edge case quick tutorials perhaps something similar for Server Docs would help cover all of the wiki docs.
17:09:51 <pboyHB> mowest: We would have a separate place for the Server Working Group thinls (i.e. the content of the current wiki)
17:10:41 <jwhimpel> pboyHB: You're welcome.  Unfortunately other stuff (suggestions from wife) have taken a higher priority the past couple of weeks.
17:10:51 <davdunc> The "Quick Docs" is a great idea and FCOS has them as well.
17:11:23 <pboyHB> Example Workstation Working Group:  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/workstation-working-group/
17:12:24 <pboyHB> jwhimpel: Yeah, unfortunately I did't manage to answer your mail. But i will do!
17:13:33 <pboyHB> davdunc: QuickDoc is for documentation, not for working group organisation and planing.
17:13:54 <pboyHB> But it would a great idea, to place some artikels about server there.
17:14:13 <davdunc[m> right. The Fedora CoreOS team uses them for quick solutions, like using ignition for the first time.
17:14:25 <pboyHB> copperi: Are you online!
17:14:29 <mowest[m]> Ok, pboyHB are the only docs that server has in the wiki the current "Server Working Group". Nothing else came to up in my searches.
17:15:17 <pboyHB> For documentation we have: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-server/
17:15:50 <pboyHB> For documentation staging we have  https://docs.stg.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-server/
17:16:19 <mowest[m]> I would like to see our "Server Working Group" documentation in the docs like the Workstation docs that you pointed to. I guess I thought there might be more in the wiki than that. It looks though like we already have our "user documentation" in docs.fedoraproject.org so that is good.
17:16:39 <pboyHB> And for our planning we would have  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/server-working-group (or alike)
17:17:13 <pboyHB> mowest: Yes, that's the idea.
17:17:53 <mowest[m]> I guess the "Quick Docs" idea that I mentioned would be an area where those quick tutorials might land in the future that don't fit in the default install documentation.
17:18:24 <pboyHB> Well, I guess we agree to move to docs.fedoraproject.org - engineering teams ??
17:18:46 <pboyHB> 3
17:18:51 <pboyHB> 2
17:18:59 <pboyHB> 1
17:19:09 <pboyHB> #agreed Server WG decides to initiate the move from Wiki to docs.fedoraproject.org.
17:19:20 <pboyHB> #proposed Server WG will reside as Engineering Team „Fedora Server Working Group“
17:19:37 <mowest[m]> Sounds good.
17:19:40 <pboyHB> That would be out title ad https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/engineering/
17:20:08 <pboyHB> (Unfortunately below working group. :-))) )
17:20:31 <pboyHB> 3
17:20:36 <pboyHB> 2
17:20:39 <pboyHB> 1
17:20:40 <davdunc> all good.
17:20:50 <pboyHB> #agreed Server WG resides as Engineering Team „Fedora Server Working Group“
17:21:21 <pboyHB> mowest[m]: yould we  team up to make the move?
17:21:34 <pboyHB> er.. yould -Y could
17:21:38 <mowest[m]> Yes, I would like to help out with this.
17:22:01 <pboyHB> #action pboy and mowest  will initiate the necessary measures.
17:22:18 <pboyHB> #topic Synchronize Server full install and net install iso images
17:22:27 <pboyHB> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/32
17:22:37 <pboyHB> I would like to summerize the status as of today, so we are all on the same page.
17:22:40 <mowest[m]> I'm pretty familiar with the docs work flow. Do we have to contact someone to create a pagure repo for us?
17:22:50 <pboyHB> There have been so many misunderstandings in the past:
17:23:09 <pboyHB> mowest: Yes, we would start with Ben
17:23:18 <pboyHB> Back to topic. :-)
17:23:26 <pboyHB> Difference between net-install and dvd-install: net-install also installs recommended packages, dvd-install does not.
17:23:33 <pboyHB> Reason at the time (a few years back): Keep dvd-install max. 2 GB, not just because of dvd medium, but because in many regions internet access and speed is weak.
17:23:42 <pboyHB> Over the years, the application of recommended packages has changed somewhat (obviously). What was originally not a problem now leads to errors to an unknown extent. Discovered in April: Cockpit installation, storage module incomplete. Currently probably also: default editor mechanism.
17:23:48 <pboyHB> We decided in spring: Growing of dvd media (and thus size of download) should remain limited.
17:23:56 <pboyHB> First Step: Check empirically how large a dvd-install media would grow with all recommended packages included. On that bases, a decision should then be made as to what should be done.
17:24:05 <pboyHB> Eighth_Doctor started to do the testing. However, it has turned out to be more difficult and time-consuming than expected.
17:24:12 <pboyHB> Some others wanted/started to help, but result after 6 months: We are not one step further.
17:24:19 <pboyHB> We now need someone to take matters into their hands and follow through.
17:24:26 <pboyHB> Done – floor is open.
17:24:53 <davdunc> Is the issue trying to determine what can be removed for the install media?
17:25:17 <pboyHB> yes, if it grows to large
17:25:45 <pboyHB> But we didn't decide yet, what is "too large"
17:26:04 <mowest[m]> What is the current size of the Workstation iso?
17:26:33 <pboyHB> Good question, let's check ....
17:27:13 <mowest[m]> Under 2GB 1.9
17:27:48 <pboyHB> Thanks. That is our original limit as well (2 gb).
17:28:04 <pboyHB> mowest:  your are quick. :-)
17:28:28 <mowest[m]> How do they keep their iso below 2GB when it sounds like we are struggling to do the same? Wouldn't server have smaller packages since it runs headless or does the DVD for server include all of the GUI workstation stuff too.
17:29:18 <mowest[m]> I think I have only done a net install of server and I always end up with a full working headless server with ssh and cockpit. Very nice by the way.
17:29:19 <pboyHB> No, server media are w/o Gui stuff. But probably with a lot of servers like web, FreeIPA, etc.
17:29:26 <jwhimpel> Someone in a previous IRC session mentioned there were two kernels in the iso.  Don't quote me, but I think one is for 32 bit and one is for 64 bit.  If that is true, the ongoing discussion about dropping 32 bit may yield some relief.
17:30:04 <mowest[m]> I like the idea of dropping 32 bit kernel for the iso install.
17:30:12 <pboyHB> jwhimpel: Thanks for the reminder. We will check
17:30:35 <pboyHB> Yes, dropping a kernel gives a lot of room
17:31:09 <jwhimpel> Would anyone know of a pointer to the list of packages included on the server iso?
17:31:47 <pboyHB> Unfortunately, I just don't know.
17:31:59 <mowest[m]> Do we get any metrics of what a typical netinstall of server pulls down? If so we could use that to make informed decisions of what to keep or leave off of the DVD.
17:32:36 <pboyHB> net-install is about 700 mb (the old CD) in general
17:32:44 <jwhimpel> Adan Williamson (Fedora QA Guru) seems to be quite knowledgeable about the build processes.  I know he is quite busy, but perhaps pinging him for some pointers/suggestions might be worthwhile.
17:34:11 <pboyHB> Yes, I've already contacted  Stephen Gallagher. If we don't have a better idea,  I would go on with him and will Adam.
17:34:29 <pboyHB> with Adam
17:35:22 <pboyHB> But we need Adam more urgent for our upcomming quality discussion
17:35:34 <jwhimpel> Mohan Boddu is the team lead for Release Engineering.  I'm sure he would know, but he is also quite busy.
17:36:42 <mowest[m]> pboyHB: I was more thinking when someone is doing a net-install do the Fedora package servers keep logs of what packages people are choosing to install, and then we could use that data (if it exists) to make decisions of what things we could drop from the package list for the DVD.
17:36:51 <pboyHB> jwhimpel: I would prefer we could save your time for Wildfly and Ansible (otherwise I would have asked youto try it with Mohan)
17:37:08 <mowest[m]> I'm guessing that there is more installed during a net-install than just the 700mb in the iso.
17:37:15 <jwhimpel> An old blog post (2018) says to submit tickets to Mohan via pagure.
17:37:35 <pboyHB> OK, good hint.
17:38:27 <pboyHB> #proposed pboyHB will try to bring the issue forward and report in about 4 weeks
17:39:05 <davdunc> that sounds like a great way to handle it.
17:39:19 <davdunc> for now.
17:39:21 <pboyHB> OK
17:39:23 <pboyHB> 3
17:39:27 <pboyHB> 2
17:39:32 <pboyHB> 1
17:39:33 <davdunc> if there is some way I can help you do the inspection, lmk
17:40:07 <pboyHB> davdunc:  Yes. Lets contact via email ?
17:40:13 <davdunc> sounds great.
17:40:57 <pboyHB> #agreed pboyHB and dacdunc will bring  the issue forward and report in about 4 weeks
17:41:14 <davdunc> B)
17:41:22 <pboyHB> #action pboyHB and davdunc will bring  the issue forward and report in about 4 weeks
17:41:35 <pboyHB> Sorry the typos
17:41:52 <pboyHB> #topic Revisiting "Software Selection" options in Server Installation
17:42:00 <pboyHB> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/51
17:42:09 <pboyHB> Floor is open
17:43:50 <davdunc> I like the idea that Server should be  a part of the "custom" selection.
17:43:50 <jwhimpel> I also have a distaste for nano.  Either VI or EMACS would be acceptable.  I don't want to to start a VI vs EMACS war!!!
17:44:25 <pboyHB> jwhimpel: That's the next topic. :-)
17:44:52 <jwhimpel> pboyHB:  Sorry, I lost track
17:44:52 <pboyHB> This is basically about a better and more attractive description AND about adding some more options in Anaconda menues
17:45:53 * nirik reads up
17:46:04 <nirik> FYI, there is no record of what exact packages anyone installs. :(
17:46:05 <pboyHB> nirik: Welcome!
17:46:08 <davdunc> The Container Management and Domain Membership are great sub-menu options, but I don't know if they should be first level..
17:46:40 <mowest[m]> If we add anything here, how would this impact the discussion we just had about keep the size of the DVD down?
17:47:21 <pboyHB> Good point! But e.G. Virtualisation software is already on the media.
17:47:39 <Astranox> I'm not sure if the last two options (postgres and httpd) are useful - if needed it's a dependency anyway - virtualization and a checkbox for dnf-automatic-configuration would be great
17:47:48 <mowest[m]> I'm thinking adding virtualization would be helpful for a number of people. Not me personally, but seems to be a popular use case.
17:47:52 <pboyHB> We can make it more visible and assist installation (or encourage)
17:48:47 <davdunc> I am definitely all for making modifications based on the targeted workloads.
17:49:21 <pboyHB> Ok, probably we discuss more details on the mailing list? (our time is going up)
17:49:47 <pboyHB> It would just be nice to make some improvement for F36
17:50:14 <pboyHB> I'll switch topic?
17:50:16 <pboyHB> 3
17:50:20 <pboyHB> 2
17:50:23 <mowest[m]> I appreciate having this list when I'm doing an install as well, and I always check Container and Headless. Nice to have that all installed and ready to go after install completes.
17:50:51 <pboyHB> mowest: That's the idea, indeed!
17:50:57 <pboyHB> 1
17:51:10 <pboyHB> #topic Fedora Server Edition default editor
17:51:17 <mowest[m]> vim
17:51:18 <pboyHB> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-server/issue/55
17:51:25 <pboyHB> Floor is open
17:51:27 <Astranox> vi
17:51:38 <pboyHB> Astranox. +1
17:51:46 <davdunc> why not stay consistent with the Fedora default?
17:51:47 <mowest[m]> vim, it used to be the default in Fedora 32 I think, I appreciated that.
17:51:48 <davdunc> nano.
17:51:56 <oDiafanos> nano
17:52:01 <eseyman> hello, all
17:52:12 <eseyman> +1 for the default
17:52:21 <pboyHB> eseyman: Welcome and hello!
17:52:47 <nirik> stay fedora default
17:52:56 <nirik> for all the reasons in the long ass thread about the change. ;)
17:53:12 <pboyHB> eseyman: currently we have 2 defaults. :-)
17:54:03 <nirik> well, there's one default and a bug that we aren't following it. :)
17:54:11 <pboyHB> nirik: well, I prefer vim, but it is not worth a long discussion, I thing
17:54:15 <eseyman> nano seems to be the one we have agreed on as a project
17:54:23 <mowest[m]> Ok, I can see some reasons to stay in line with Workstation. Perhaps we could add something in the check list of the server install right after "Containers, Headless..." "Useful CLI Tools for Server Admins"
17:54:49 <nirik> I also prefer vim. I dislike nano, but... for new folks nano is 10000% better
17:54:58 <nirik> and we all know how to change the default. :)
17:55:01 <davdunc> mowest[m]: it was a system-wide change to move to nano as I rcal.
17:55:05 <davdunc> recall*
17:55:09 <Astranox> to be honest, it just would be a thing I'd have to undo again, in general I do see a strong push for "but potential new users", but I think that the point where someone chooses Fedora Server is not "I'd like to try something", but "someone recommended that to me", so imho the focus should be on existing users
17:55:57 <eseyman> in that case, we should petition FESCO for a exception to the default
17:56:11 <davdunc> eseyman: I think that's the very best plan.
17:56:13 <pboyHB> I think mowest's proposal attractiv: Add it as an option.
17:56:45 <eseyman> but accepting a bug that does not install nano and claiming it to be a feature is a bit silly
17:56:54 <mowest[m]> I wish I could remember where I saw it during an install, but I think what I mentioned "Useful CLI Tools for Server Admins" was an option. Maybe it was OpenSuse Tumbleweed.
17:57:27 <mowest[m]> And I'm pretty sure it installed vim and a few other CLI tools too
17:57:30 <pboyHB> mowest: We have something like that in server install,
17:57:33 <nirik> I'd advise you all to re-read the change thread before asking to change it.
17:58:35 <pboyHB> nirik: What do you think about the proposal to add it as an option in the right column of the installation menu?
17:59:08 <Astranox> that thread was highly controversial, and despite that I do think that nano is the wrong choice for the Server variant, I don't have a that strong opinion about workstation
17:59:11 <nirik> well, seems overkill to me, but I seldom install servers from the gui installer.
17:59:48 <jwhimpel> I've followed the email thread closely.  I have no issue with changing the workstation default to nano.  There's a lot more newbies and gui only folks in that arena.  But I think Server folks are an entirely different subset of users.
17:59:51 <pboyHB> Guys, we have just 1 minute left!
18:00:37 <pboyHB> #proposal Continue discussion on mailing list and next IRC meeting!
18:00:41 <eseyman> pboyHB: more discussion needed, I'm afraid
18:00:59 <pboyHB> eseyman: indeed
18:01:03 <mowest[m]> nirik: I'm sure there was good reason, nano or even micro are easier for new users in the CLI. If we added it as an install option it would be easy for those who like vim to get that as their default.
18:01:24 <eseyman> mowest[m]: and it would be easier to kickstart it in
18:01:34 <nirik> mowest[m]: sure, but it's also easy to do post install or in kickstart... another option seems too much...
18:01:40 <mowest[m]> But still keep the default the default across all of Fedora.
18:02:02 <nirik> but I guess we could and try and figure out if people like it.
18:02:19 <pboyHB> OK. Time is up!
18:02:34 <pboyHB> Thanks for the vivid discussion of all topics!
18:02:41 <davdunc> :)
18:02:52 <eseyman> I can handle nano on a drive-by basis but if I'm going to be using $EDITOR a lot, I will use vim
18:02:57 <pboyHB> See you on #fedora-server or on our mailing list.
18:03:24 <pboyHB> Bye bye!
18:03:28 <davdunc> it's a good Quick Dock!
18:03:30 <eseyman> humm... that's right. We have an irc channel
18:03:55 <pboyHB> #endmeeting