18:00:02 <bcotton_> #startmeeting Council (2021-01-21)
18:00:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 21 18:00:02 2021 UTC.
18:00:02 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:02 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2021-01-21)'
18:00:04 <bcotton_> #meetingname council
18:00:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:00:05 <bcotton_> #chair bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy
18:00:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton_ bookwar dcantrell jwf riecatnor spot mattdm bcotton asamalik x3mboy
18:00:07 <bcotton_> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
18:00:27 <bcotton_> helloooo everyone
18:00:27 * jwf waves
18:00:40 * spot wakes up
18:00:47 <mattdm> hello Ben Cotton Underscore!
18:01:00 <x3mboy> .hello2
18:01:02 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com>
18:01:15 * King_InuYasha waves
18:01:18 <King_InuYasha> .hello ngompa
18:01:19 <zodbot> King_InuYasha: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
18:01:39 <jwf> .hello jflory7
18:01:40 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <foss@jwf.io>
18:02:24 <mattdm> .hello2
18:02:25 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org>
18:02:31 <riecatnor> .hello riecatnor
18:02:33 <zodbot> riecatnor: riecatnor 'Marie Nordin' <mnordin@redhat.com>
18:02:39 <bookwar> .hello2
18:02:40 <zodbot> bookwar: bookwar 'Aleksandra Fedorova' <alpha@bookwar.info>
18:02:58 <bcotton_> that's almost everyone, so let's get started
18:03:14 <bcotton_> #topic Today's agenda
18:03:16 <bcotton_> #info Logo adoption timeline
18:03:17 <bcotton_> #info Fedora annual survey
18:03:19 <bcotton_> #info Add the Fedora goal of having complete integrated system
18:03:20 <bcotton_> #info Your topics here!
18:03:29 * bcotton_ remembered to replace #topic with #info when copypasta-ing this time
18:03:33 <bcotton_> bcotton++ ;-)
18:03:40 <bcotton_> #topic Logo adoption timeline
18:03:42 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/249
18:03:51 <mattdm> So, good news!
18:04:10 <mattdm> We have legal clearance to move forward with the new logo as designed by mizmo
18:04:21 <bcotton_> #info We have legal clearance to move forward with the new logo as designed by mizmo
18:04:27 <dcantrell> .hello2
18:04:28 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
18:04:28 <mattdm> We are waiting for RH Legal to file a thing
18:04:38 <mattdm> "A thing" is not the technical term.
18:04:58 <mattdm> I'm just being vague because I'm not sure how much we should say before that is actually filed.
18:04:58 <spot> maybe a trademark registration?
18:05:04 <bookwar> are we going to be ready by devconf? )
18:05:21 <bcotton_> bookwar: definitly by *a* devconf
18:05:27 <bcotton_> definitely, too
18:05:34 <mattdm> We were told that that would take about a week, about a week ago
18:05:41 <mattdm> So bcotton_ is following up.
18:05:44 <spot> so, 2024.
18:05:46 <spot> cool.
18:06:04 <mattdm> bcotton_ won't let that happen :)
18:06:16 <bookwar> i wonder if get more flame than centos got
18:06:24 * bcotton_ is a pro at sending pestering emails
18:06:35 <jwf> Well, we do have a very long, very public track record on our logo
18:06:41 <jwf> mizmo++
18:06:41 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for duffy changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:06:52 <King_InuYasha> woohoo!
18:06:53 <mattdm> We also need a roll-out plan. Ben, Marie, Mo, and I are working on figuring that out.
18:06:57 <Conan_Kudo> mizmo++
18:06:58 <zodbot> Conan_Kudo: Karma for duffy changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:07:22 <bcotton_> duffy++
18:07:28 <mattdm> There are a lot of things that need to be changed -- not just the logos but the guidelines and stuff
18:07:29 <bcotton_> FINE ZODBOT
18:07:48 <bcotton> duffy++
18:07:48 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for duffy changed to 5 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:07:49 <bookwar> jwf: sure, but i would brace for impact anyway. There will be a news wave.
18:07:54 <jwf> mattdm: I wonder if a docs.fp.o reboot from the wiki would be in order…
18:07:57 <King_InuYasha> are we getting new generic branding for this?
18:08:29 <mattdm> And, we've also been asked to _keep_ using the "classic" logo in place.
18:08:37 <mattdm> King_InuYasha: you mean the remix secondary mark?
18:08:38 <King_InuYasha> or fedora-remix branding?
18:08:44 <jwf> bookwar: Inevitably. I am skeptically optimistic that it won't be received terribly. Given that we still get the Facebook comments, even in 2020
18:08:45 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: yes
18:08:59 <mattdm> I don't think that's currently in scope.
18:09:08 <mattdm> One thing at a time. :)
18:09:18 <mattdm> It might make sense to update the typeface to match
18:09:21 <King_InuYasha> yeah
18:09:36 <bookwar> mattdm: then i guess let's not make any announcement until we have the plan figured
18:09:46 <riecatnor> mattdm, which typeface?
18:10:03 <mattdm> I think in some part, continuing to use the current logo is just going to happen in practice because we won't be able to have a big changeover day
18:10:27 <mattdm> riecatnor: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Secondary_trademark_usage_guidelines
18:10:45 <riecatnor> mattdm, gotcha thanks
18:10:51 <mattdm> But it would be nice to also have some areas where we are specifically using the Classic mark intentionally
18:11:09 <King_InuYasha> you can see where the rpi branding design was inspired from :)
18:11:11 <mattdm> We don't need to solve that here but would like your ideas as you have them
18:11:34 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: why not use the main logo for Project activities?
18:12:06 <mattdm> King_InuYasha: We discussed that. The problem is a lot of the reasons we wanted a new logo apply to those uses
18:12:11 <King_InuYasha> :/
18:12:12 <mattdm> Like, maybe 95% of them.
18:12:26 <mattdm> I mean, they also apply to the Fedora software use cases.
18:12:31 <King_InuYasha> then this is going to be difficult
18:12:49 <bcotton_> King_InuYasha: that is correct
18:12:51 <King_InuYasha> we don't exactly have any good boundaries we could neatly apply them
18:12:52 <mattdm> I am one-tenth-seriously thinking of making a Fedora Classic spin. With fvwm.
18:13:03 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: it'd better have fvwm95 :)
18:13:11 <mattdm> sure :)
18:13:21 <King_InuYasha> (that was my first window manager :) )
18:14:05 <jwf> It will be difficult, but we'll get it done :) Once we have a green light to go public, I think we can revisit then. But good to know there is real traction here
18:14:15 <bookwar> mattdm: the problem there is to come up with the common definition is "classic", which is impossible
18:14:20 <mattdm> But anyway, I think the question for the council is: do we want to try and land this for the F34 launch?
18:14:26 <jwf> It might be a good casual note in bcotton's FPgM weekly reports
18:14:35 <jwf> mattdm: That seems ambitiously ambitious
18:14:37 <bcotton_> FSVO "land"
18:14:40 <King_InuYasha> mattdm: yes please, it would align well with branding refresh in Plasma
18:14:47 <mattdm> bcotton_: right.
18:14:58 <King_InuYasha> we're in the process of redoing basically the entire visual look of Plasma in Fedora
18:15:05 <riecatnor> I think we need to understand the scope of landing it for F34 launch is
18:15:14 <riecatnor> what the scope*
18:15:20 <jwf> riecatnor++
18:15:37 <mattdm> I think it would basically be: We use the new logo for:
18:15:43 <mattdm> 1) at least the Editions
18:15:47 <mattdm> 2) Fedora Magazine
18:15:53 <mattdm> 3) Fedora Docs
18:16:21 <mattdm> all by 34 release day
18:16:28 <King_InuYasha> 4) Fedora KDE :P
18:16:36 <King_InuYasha> but yeah, that makes sense
18:16:53 <mattdm> King_InuYasha that falls under 'at least' rather than 'must' to me but sure since you want to do it anyway
18:17:08 <mattdm> and then we would start rolling it out to other places as time and effort permit
18:17:15 <riecatnor> so we have until mid April
18:18:01 <mattdm> Yeah. My feeling is that if we can't do at least 1-3 above, we should delay until two weeks after the F34 launch (when the buzz of that dies down) and then start changing things for F35
18:18:18 <bcotton_> assuming the design team can make updated assets in that time frame, #2 and 3 shoudl be easy to implement
18:18:20 <mattdm> (That is, if we can't do 1-3, explicitly do none.)
18:18:36 <riecatnor> so, we will need Mo to make the files for all of these I am guessing. so that is the first piece, Mo's capacity. Tho I think she is excited for this
18:18:42 <bcotton_> i do like the all-or-nothing approach
18:18:52 <mattdm> Other early targets would be hyperkitty, discourse, matrix, and the wiki
18:19:13 <King_InuYasha> most of those things don't actually _use_ the Fedora logo
18:19:25 <King_InuYasha> unless we've changed the fedora-bootstrap visual style too?
18:19:58 <jwf> mattdm: I think you forgot social media, Discourse, and Matrix ;)
18:20:20 <mattdm> Oh, yes, social media probably should be part of the launch.
18:20:34 <bookwar> what are the places to keep the old one then?
18:20:35 <mattdm> Twitter and Facebook at least, because that's our biggest audiences.
18:20:59 <mattdm> bookwar: right, no idea. :)
18:21:12 <mattdm> but it is _everywhere_ in places like https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/
18:21:19 <mattdm> https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji-static/images/koji.png
18:21:31 <jwf> There is also LinkedIn (stickster?), Reddit, Discord, Telegram, YouTube, Instagram… etc
18:21:46 <mattdm> anyway, this is getting into details. all of this will need to go into the plan.
18:21:52 <jwf> +1
18:22:02 <mizmo> ooh logo talk?
18:22:07 <bcotton_> so it sounds like we have general agreement that we want to give this a try
18:22:08 <mattdm> mizmo: yes :)
18:22:09 <jwf> Well, +1 to putting it in a plan
18:22:22 <bookwar> should it be in a ticket? Or in a doc?
18:22:25 <jwf> I am somewhere between -1 and +0 for targeting new logo for F34
18:22:26 <mattdm> just going to say "I think we need to wait for mizmo to make the decision I want to make"
18:22:43 <mizmo> mattdm: what decision?
18:22:44 <bcotton_> so i'm going to suggest we #action mattdm to coordinate a plan for the logo rollout and come back to council with a proposal
18:22:58 <King_InuYasha> mizmo: starting rollout of new logo in f34
18:23:00 <jwf> I feel like we should spend more time scoping it than just one meeting before taking a vote on something that comes with a lot of new work
18:23:03 <mizmo> i have an initial cut of a plan riecatnor and i worked on way back but its very high level branding
18:23:08 <mizmo> oh thats my decision? o_O
18:23:13 <King_InuYasha> mizmo: yes
18:23:13 <mattdm> bookwar: I think mizmo riecatnor and I will come up with a proposal
18:23:41 <mattdm> mizmo: well, it's a decision where you have a lot of the weight since we expect you'll do most of the work :)
18:23:48 <mizmo> oh i just sort of assumed it was happening and scheduled myself accordingly
18:23:56 <King_InuYasha> well, that makes that easy
18:23:58 <mattdm> bcotton_: go ahead and action me that :)
18:24:13 <mizmo> i mean i would have a happier less stressful life if it could wait, but also... excitement to get it going so
18:24:30 <bcotton_> #action mattdm to coordinate a plan for the logo rollout and come back to the Council with a proposal
18:24:47 <mizmo> does having the plan approved by council be a prereq to getting into f34 bc time is tight for beta
18:24:50 <jwf> I will feel more confident voting on something more concrete :) We could make it for F34, but we need to take a proper inventory of what that will require first
18:25:13 <mizmo> or say could there be an f34 plan, then the full rest of everything plan after beta deadlines are made
18:25:22 <King_InuYasha> mizmo: that's fine
18:25:26 <bcotton_> mizmo: yes, that
18:25:26 <King_InuYasha> and I think what we're aiming for
18:25:36 <jwf> +1
18:25:36 <mattdm> mizmo: yes, that was my suggestion. scroll up a bit to where I made a numbered list
18:25:51 <bcotton_> okay, so let's move on to the next topic then
18:25:53 <mizmo> ok cool what i have been working on is putting together a table in the pagure ticket on the design team pagure of all the spots it needs to be updated
18:26:09 <mattdm> ok. I'll try to get a proposal for F34 ready before next week
18:26:12 <bcotton_> #topic Fedora annual survey
18:26:14 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/327
18:26:15 <bcotton_> #info Previously, bookwar said she'd draft a proposal for this
18:26:16 <mattdm> even if it will not have all the details
18:26:40 <bookwar> bcotton and i said it will be in november :(
18:26:52 <bcotton_> bookwar: i left that part out :-)
18:27:32 <bookwar> and i do still want to make it
18:27:35 <mattdm> it's november somewhere!
18:27:51 <bookwar> but i am really afraid to say anything about the time now
18:28:31 <bcotton_> bookwar: no problem. it's not the most pressing issue. we can keep checking in on it from time to time (or if you want to hand it off to someone else, we can ask for volunteers)
18:29:16 <bookwar> if anyone wants to volunteer, i'll gladly accept that, but let's keep it for now
18:29:16 <jwf> I wonder if Mindshare has bandwidth and capacity for this, either to lead or just to assist. Given their success in running previous surveys
18:29:40 <mattdm> I can also check back in with the NPS people I was talking to pre-covid
18:29:48 <jwf> x3mboy and riecatnor could call that one better than me^^
18:29:56 <mattdm> Those discussions fell apart solely because of pandemic fatigue.
18:30:01 <x3mboy> I did what?
18:30:30 <jwf> x3mboy: Mindshare Committee bandwidth to assisting with a community-wide survey about Fedora
18:30:51 <jwf> x3mboy: This one -- https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/327
18:30:55 <x3mboy> I think there is some BW
18:31:01 <riecatnor> there is a process in which to request a survey through mindshare
18:31:03 <x3mboy> But not sure how much
18:31:14 <mattdm> let's do that then so bookwar can stop feeling guilty
18:31:21 <riecatnor> Well, the copy needs to be written
18:31:29 <riecatnor> it is only someone taking that and putting it into lime survey
18:31:55 <jwf> Would Mindshare be interested in co-authoring the copy?
18:32:09 <riecatnor> I think mindshare is a bit cut off from the engineering side of Fedora, as engineering side is from mindshare. this should be with the council imo
18:32:21 <mizmo> oh! i just wanted to throw this out there - by some chance i own the fedora.limequery.com / fedora@limesurvey account, if somebody wants the reins happy to give for this
18:32:22 <jwf> Fair
18:32:40 * mattdm has to step away from keyboard for a few minutes. don't wait for me :)
18:32:42 <x3mboy> +1 to riecatnor
18:32:46 <bookwar> the initial question list is there in the etherpad
18:33:09 <bookwar> do you thinl we can find some small unibiased audience where we can make a test run for them?
18:33:09 <riecatnor> I think ensuring the reps from mindshare and fesco review it makes sense tho.
18:33:26 <bookwar> riecatnor: yes, definitely
18:34:11 <bookwar> riecatnor: so i need to bring it to mindshare and fesco and council as a ticket, right?
18:34:16 <riecatnor> what we have already is a pretty good start
18:34:44 <riecatnor> I guess it mainly needs some refinement?
18:35:00 <bcotton_> i would not bring it to mindshare and fesco as tickets. i'd say bring it to the council as a ticket and let the mindshare/fesco reps handle their respective groups
18:35:16 <bookwar> bcotton: ok, good point
18:35:25 <riecatnor> this is definitely something we can discuss at the next mindshare meeting
18:36:06 <bookwar> so how about I'll take the content from the etherpad, reread it, and then repost it into that ticket as a proposal?
18:36:18 <jwf> +1
18:37:17 <King_InuYasha> is this survey thing something we can use in various WGs?
18:37:36 <King_InuYasha> WGs/SIGs/etc.?
18:38:00 <riecatnor> I think the idea is that it is community wide?
18:38:22 <bcotton_> #action bookwar to review the content from the survey etherpad and repost into the ticket as a proposal
18:38:31 <bcotton_> anything else on this topic?
18:38:40 <jwf> not from me
18:39:08 <bcotton_> #topic Add the Fedora goal of having complete integrated system
18:39:09 <bcotton_> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/280
18:39:11 <bcotton_> #info From vF2F: mattdm and bookwar to find a place to fit “upstream first” and then add in the contents of https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Objectives&oldid=2124
18:39:50 <riecatnor> mizmo, for the limesurvey account, the person would be siddharthvipul :)
18:40:09 <bcotton_> mattdm, bookwar any progress on this one?
18:40:22 <mizmo> riecatnor - his accoutn is fedoraproject.limequery, i have the fedora.* one
18:40:39 <mattdm> bcotton_: nope! kick that to next meeting plesae :)
18:40:56 <bcotton_> #info We'll come back to this next time
18:41:02 <bcotton_> speaking of next time...
18:41:11 <bookwar> King_InuYasha: btw, my original idea on survey was because the nano vs vim debate and i started to think if we want a "classic spin" as mattdm mentioned. And then i realized i have no idea what can be counted as classic in the community, and i want to know what community is actually doing
18:41:26 <bcotton_> #topic Next meeting
18:41:28 <bcotton_> #info The next regular business meeting is Thursday 4 Feburary
18:41:31 <King_InuYasha> well, "classic" is overratted
18:41:37 <King_InuYasha> call it "retro" :)
18:41:37 <bcotton_> #topic Do we have anything to announce?
18:41:39 <bcotton_> #info This is a regular check to make sure we're communicating to the contributor (via CommBlog) and user (via Magazine) communities
18:43:40 <riecatnor> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/community-outreach-revamp-objective/
18:44:03 <riecatnor> follow up, please vote or comment here :)
18:44:05 <riecatnor> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-objective-proposal-community-outreach-revamp/25928/4
18:44:40 <bcotton_> any other announcements?
18:45:22 <mattdm> not from me
18:45:29 <riecatnor> yes
18:45:37 * bcotton_ waits
18:45:50 <riecatnor> #link https://pagure.io/mindshare/issue/248
18:45:58 <riecatnor> #info Mindshare committee is organizing a presence at fosdem 2021
18:46:33 <riecatnor> we are attempting to organize a swag raffle contest for that!
18:46:41 <riecatnor> that is all :)
18:46:52 <bcotton_> #topic Dashboard check
18:46:54 <bcotton_> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/dashboard/
18:47:32 <bcotton_> so not today because i haven't had time to organize my thoughts, but be prepared for a proposal from me that we give up on this :-)
18:47:44 <mattdm> yeah :/
18:48:22 <bcotton_> but there are no recent updates that require the Council's help, so that's nice
18:48:31 <bcotton_> #topic Open floor
18:48:41 <bcotton_> anything for open floor?
18:48:45 * King_InuYasha shrugs
18:48:54 <King_InuYasha> Fedora 34 doesn't look like it'll beat Fedora 33 on changeset
18:48:59 <King_InuYasha> changeset numbers that is
18:49:11 <King_InuYasha> it got close though
18:49:57 <jwf> There were some new docs tickets opened as an FYI
18:50:12 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/issue/102
18:50:21 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/council-docs/issue/103
18:50:31 <riecatnor> the D&I team is organizing a virtual meetup
18:50:36 <riecatnor> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity/issue/189
18:51:43 <riecatnor> the community outreach/ambassador survey closed and the co-leads & folks from the TTF have begun to analyze the data
18:52:10 <jwf> Excited to see that :)
18:52:31 <mattdm> nice
18:52:38 <riecatnor> Under: What do you see other organizations doing that you think works well?
18:52:38 <riecatnor> "SuSE has the lizard suit girl mascot. Bring back Spot in a penguin suit."
18:52:55 <bcotton_> +1
18:53:32 <jwf> 🤣🤣
18:53:45 <mattdm> ha
18:54:01 <riecatnor> In all seriousness, there are some very interesting insights to gather
18:54:42 <riecatnor> Looking forward to sharing that in a digestible format :)
18:54:54 <spot> uhhh
18:55:10 <riecatnor> lol
18:56:02 <riecatnor> last piece of news, potentially the most important.. I have adopted two kittens! and named them Ruby & Sapphire
18:56:07 <riecatnor> that is all :)
18:56:14 <jwf> <3
18:56:59 <x3mboy> In a positive note, we are getting attention in the media for several stuff, not only technical
18:57:15 <bcotton_> #action riecatnor to post pictures of cats to matthew's pet thread on discussion.fp.o
18:57:16 <x3mboy> Like phoronix mentioning the amby's revamp
18:57:18 <jwf> Oh?
18:57:24 <jwf> nice!
18:57:38 <jwf> #link https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fedora-Community-Outreach-21
18:57:49 <mattdm> OTHER CAT PICS ALSO WELCOME
18:58:12 <mattdm> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/pets-of-fedora/25180
18:58:41 <x3mboy> And several podcasts shows (DLN and Linux Unplugged) choosing  Fedora 33 as beste desktop of 2020
18:59:51 <riecatnor> rad :)
19:00:16 <bcotton_> well on that positive note, that seems like a good time to
19:00:19 <bcotton_> #endmeeting