17:02:58 <smooge> #startmeeting Fedora Server
17:02:58 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan 20 17:02:58 2021 UTC.
17:02:58 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:02:58 <zodbot> The chair is smooge. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:02:58 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:58 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_server'
17:03:10 <michel_slm> PBoyHB: want to use # startmeeting to start it? ah smooge did it
17:03:17 <smooge> #chair michel_slm nirik smooge PBoyHB
17:03:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: PBoyHB michel_slm nirik smooge
17:03:22 <michel_slm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions for instructions since I also don't have it memorized
17:03:24 <smooge> #topic Introductions
17:03:33 <michel_slm> .hello salimma
17:03:33 <zodbot> michel_slm: salimma 'Michel Alexandre Salim' <michel@michel-slm.name>
17:03:42 <smooge> .hello smooge
17:03:42 <zodbot> smooge: smooge 'Stephen J Smoogen' <smooge@gmail.com>
17:03:43 <PBoyHB> .hello pboy
17:03:45 <zodbot> PBoyHB: pboy 'Dr. Peter Boy' <pboy@uni-bremen.de>
17:04:12 * smooge isn't sure nirik is in this meeting but I added him because he raised his head out of his shell
17:04:38 <smooge> usually I would put in here an #info with the agenda
17:04:47 <nirik> ha. I am here...
17:04:56 <smooge> #info The agenda for this meeting can be found at <to be decided>
17:04:58 <nirik> .hello kevin
17:04:59 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
17:05:09 <michel_slm> Davide Cavalca sent his regrets
17:05:13 <smooge> #info The general SIG site is at <to be included>
17:05:23 <PBoyHB> ad agenda, i made a proposal on the mailing list
17:05:40 <smooge> PBoyHB, do you want to take over the meeting now?
17:06:06 <PBoyHB> I think im to new here and dont know about the details
17:06:12 <smooge> sorry that was can you take over.. english is hard for me today
17:06:28 <smooge> OK let me look at the proposed agenda
17:06:45 <PBoyHB> i think i should not because nt familiar enough
17:06:57 <smooge> #topic (a) Status of the PRD Update
17:07:22 <nirik> I have marked this to review, but haven't had time to do so.
17:07:30 <michel_slm> #info proposed update at https://pboy.fedorapeople.org/FedoraServerPRD-UpdateProposal-V1-0.odt
17:07:31 <PBoyHB> well, i published a first propsa,, announced pon mailing list
17:08:31 <michel_slm> how does Server WG vote, traditionally? majority needed to approve a proposal?
17:08:50 <PBoyHB> ok so we should delay discussion next meeht, in was a bit short notice, indeed
17:09:35 <smooge> michel_slm, there was a set of rules for voting and who could do so. I don't remember having a vote while I was on it
17:09:53 <smooge> sgallagh can remind me where they were
17:10:14 <smooge> PBoyHB, thank you for the work on this.
17:10:20 <smooge> that is a lot of cleanup
17:10:26 <jdubby> .hello jdubby
17:10:30 <zodbot> jdubby: Sorry, but you don't exist
17:10:40 <smooge> Isn't that a bit overshooting? =)
17:10:42 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Governance_Charter
17:11:00 <michel_slm> yeah, this looks great, but I'd need more time to digest it too (FWIW I do this all the time, make last minute announcements that get decided on the next meeting)
17:11:21 <michel_slm> jdubby: try your FAS name?
17:11:23 <nirik> yeah, thanks PBoyHB!
17:11:36 <michel_slm> PBoyHB++
17:11:40 <smooge> #proposal Server Working Group will review in meeting next week
17:11:43 <smooge> pboy++
17:11:43 <zodbot> smooge: Karma for pboy changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:11:54 <jdubby> .hello jwhimpel
17:11:54 <smooge> #chain PBoyHB
17:11:54 <zodbot> jdubby: jwhimpel 'John Himpel' <john@jlhimpel.net>
17:12:02 <smooge> #chair PBoyHB
17:12:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: PBoyHB michel_slm nirik smooge
17:12:40 <smooge> #proposal Server Working Group will review Updated PRD in email and finalize in meeting next week
17:12:46 <michel_slm> pboy++
17:12:46 <zodbot> michel_slm: Karma for pboy changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:13:01 <PBoyHB> OK, so we decide to futher discuss on mailing list and on next meeting?
17:13:07 <michel_slm> smooge: biweekly, so not next week
17:13:26 <smooge> #proposal Server Working Group will review Updated PRD in email and finalize in next meeting
17:13:47 <smooge> any objections to the proposal?
17:13:51 <michel_slm> next topic should be agreeing on the regular meeting schedule, speaking of that
17:14:00 <michel_slm> +1 on the proposal
17:14:47 <smooge> nirik, PBoyHB jdubby ?
17:15:01 <PBoyHB> next topic meeting shcedule?
17:15:09 <jdubby> +1 for continuing on M/L
17:15:13 <nirik> sure, no objection...
17:15:35 <michel_slm> #agreed Updated PRD to be reviewed in email and finalized in next meeting
17:15:46 <michel_slm> #topic meeting schedule
17:16:20 <michel_slm> #info we had a whenisgood poll with hourly time slots for two weeks, and this slot seems to be the one with the most availability
17:16:28 <smooge> this time/date is best for me
17:16:33 <PBoyHB> next regular meeting February 3, 17:00 UTC `?
17:16:54 <nirik> this time works for me too
17:16:57 <michel_slm> CentOS Stream meets 2nd Wednesdays of the month at the same time slot, so I propose we make ours the 1st and 3rd Wednesdays
17:17:12 <michel_slm> (which means shuffling it by one week if a month has 5 Wednesdays)
17:17:50 <michel_slm> #proposal Server WG to meet on first and third Wednesdays of the month at 17:00 UTC (to be revised for DST)
17:18:03 <PBoyHB> I'm OK with 1. end 3. Wednesday. Any objections?
17:18:11 <jdubby> +1
17:18:14 <smooge> +1
17:18:59 <nirik> sounds good to me
17:19:07 <michel_slm> #agreed meetings on 1st and 3rd Wednesdays 17:00. Next meeting on Feb 3.
17:19:22 <PBoyHB> so we could proceed with next topic, I proposed: Improving Fedora Server dockuemtnation and visability
17:19:25 <michel_slm> anyone has a next topic?
17:19:39 <michel_slm> that sounds good. I want to queue up systemd-oomd for after this
17:19:55 <michel_slm> #topic Improving Fedora Server documentation and visibility
17:20:31 <PBoyHB> Matthews proposal was. Add a box Fedora server an docs landing page, Di we want that?
17:20:45 <PBoyHB> (i would)
17:21:03 <nirik> what would we put there?
17:21:04 <michel_slm> yeah, wiki seems to be progressively getting deprecated, and with docs we can propose edits as pull requests
17:21:21 <nirik> doc > wiki for sure.
17:22:00 <PBoyHB> Content may be: Additionl docs, hotwo, working projects and other content currently onour wiki page, after update
17:22:17 <PBoyHB> Example ist IoT and coreos
17:22:31 <PBoyHB> We are lacking behind them
17:22:36 <nirik> ok, yeah, that sounds reasonable.
17:22:52 <michel_slm> yeah. silverblue also has a docs presence
17:23:10 <nirik> I worry about howtos or the like being something thats covered already better somewhere else... but group docs/specific to fedora things would be fine there
17:23:50 <jdubby> Any place that is kept current.  Deprecated and/or obsolete docs are worse than none.  Current and accurate How-To's to attract new users.
17:24:08 <PBoyHB> Example of a howto i could contributre: Install a mailservice system for home server and soho using fedory server packages
17:24:43 <nirik> but there's a lot of those out there, and there's a lot of ways to do it.
17:24:47 <PBoyHB> (and not debian as many other howtos to be found )
17:25:22 <michel_slm> looks like IOT puts their PRD there. https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/iot/prd/
17:25:24 <jdubby> If we add "roles" in addition to base server, then docs and possible Git repositories become more important.
17:25:31 <PBoyHB> Tere are many, but very few using feoder, most of them debion, some Centos
17:25:52 <michel_slm> we can start small and only have it linked to the top level once we're ready, I suppose? Looks like that page is manually curated too
17:25:59 <nirik> I think that might be better for fedora magazine articles... perhaps
17:27:18 <PBoyHB> Other topic may be system administration. Current documentation in the vox fedora 33 is quite outdated, partly plain wring,, al lot is missing (e.g. Cockpit)
17:27:38 <michel_slm> do we see governance docs moving to docs as well?
17:27:41 <nirik> yeah, improving server related docs would be a good thing for sure.
17:27:53 <nirik> michel_slm: I would think so/be in favor of
17:28:12 <PBoyHB> fedory magazine is also ok, we must / should be visible, that an important point I think.
17:28:36 <michel_slm> yeah, I'm in favor of docs + magazine articles
17:29:34 <michel_slm> the "how do I do X" is things that we often use magazine articles for, though they tend to be for desktop use. sometimes even involving installing packages from GitHub (?!!) so the scope seems quite flexible
17:30:20 <PBoyHB> Well, I could write a proposal what to include in at "Fedora server" box and what to add to the general Fedora documetation from a fedora Server point of view.
17:30:40 <PBoyHB> We can discuss it next meeting
17:30:45 <nirik> I think magazine articles are good for that kind of thing because it's clear when they were written... and that they can have a author bias to setting up the setup they know instead of trying to explain every possible setup.
17:30:49 <michel_slm> any concrete action we can do here? I guess we need to decide on a base URL before we can start (e.g. fedora-server -- iot is the only one that didn't use a fedora prefix it seems)
17:31:35 <jdubby> The how-to's should feature configurations, etc that are compatible with other supported how-to's.  Don't need to focus on one solution (postfix vs sendmail), but rather how to configure either to interact with rest of documented services.
17:32:22 <michel_slm> nirik: yeah, looks like docs doesn't currently show when a page is last modified (only when the whole site is last rebuilt)
17:32:49 <PBoyHB> Yes, we want to have use cases, we we should tell people how to "use" out use cases
17:33:09 <nirik> I'd love for docs to grey out and look older over time so you know when something needs rechecking. ;) but thats a different conversation...
17:33:49 <PBoyHB> Yes it is, I all too often miss information when it was writte for which software version
17:34:41 <smooge> sorry I have to walk away for a couple of minutes. brb
17:34:45 <PBoyHB> We can change that and write clearly about  publishing date and releases
17:35:33 <jdubby> The left hand pane of Fedora Documentation site look good and understandable. https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/25/html/Release_Notes/
17:36:54 <michel_slm> I'm a bit sad we stopped doing that, yeah
17:37:43 <PBoyHB> Yeah and https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/f33/install-guide/ is saying there is no fedora server for download at all
17:38:34 <PBoyHB> Sorry, I'm wrong must have been changed some time ago
17:39:39 <michel_slm> ah duh, F26 and above are in this format, of course
17:42:01 <PBoyHB> What do we decide, want we discuss it futher based on a proposal or dismiss the idea of a " Fedora Server Box"
17:42:30 <nirik> I think we are all in agreement to put working group things there...
17:42:40 <nirik> we can discuss more the rest on list or future meetings?
17:43:28 <PBoyHB> OK, I offer to write a short paper of 1 or max 2 pages, so we can have a structured discussion on mailing list and a final desicion here?
17:44:28 <jdubby> Thanks
17:44:40 <nirik> sounds great
17:45:00 <michel_slm> #action pboy to write up the proposed documentation change for the mailing list
17:45:05 <PBoyHB> May we can setup a shared space, x3mboy is working on that
17:45:40 <PBoyHB> OK, next topic?
17:46:01 <PBoyHB> Michel? ypurs?
17:46:02 <michel_slm> looks like the documentation is quite clear and we can try doing a local build for experimenting - https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-docs/contributing/prerequisites/
17:46:11 <michel_slm> #topic systemd-oomd
17:46:26 <michel_slm> #info change proposal: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/EnableSystemdOomd#How_to_test
17:46:48 <michel_slm> so - correct me if I'm wrong, but currently only Fedora Workstation and the KDE Spin comes with a userspace oom killer, and it's earlyoom
17:47:37 <michel_slm> this change will enable systemd-oomd on every Fedora solution that seems suitable (configuration should be encapsulated in a single package so it's easy to opt out)
17:48:25 <michel_slm> the change owners (myself included) think it will be especially suitable for the server edition - where most things are running via systemd units so they already are isolated in individual cgroups
17:48:54 <michel_slm> hoping this can get confirmed in practice. I'm spinning up some personal servers to help test
17:49:14 <nirik> yeah, I think this should be fine on server...
17:49:40 <PBoyHB> I think nirik should know best ?
17:49:43 <nirik> The case where it might not is if you have say a httpd and are running several applications on it, they will all be in the same cgroup right?
17:50:37 <smooge> ... is back
17:50:42 <michel_slm> that might be worth flagging, yeah.
17:51:47 <PBoyHB> OK, what action?
17:51:49 <nirik> or, perhaps we could ask mod_wsgi and other maintainers to add something to do seperate cgroups? or something in apache? dunno.
17:52:18 <jdubby> Would this affect wildfly in the same way?
17:52:34 <nirik> good question. I am not sure.
17:52:38 <smooge> i am on the opinion it is ok as long as we document you can turn it off with `sudo systemctl disable --now systemd-oomd`
17:52:43 <michel_slm> the JBoss server? not sure.
17:52:55 <michel_slm> jdubby: do you have a link to its RPM spec?
17:53:13 <jdubby> Yes, the jboss server.  Killing it would be catastrophic to normal ops.
17:53:23 <michel_slm> smooge: yeah, disabling will be as easy as that. or removing the preset RPM that we will ship
17:54:08 <jdubby> Last I checked it would not start from rpm.  So I've been installing from scratch.
17:54:41 <michel_slm> I can help take a look if we can figure out how wildfly is installed. we could potentially make its RPM conflict with the oomd preset RPM
17:55:15 <michel_slm> ah. then... yeah, we either need to document how to run it in a cgroup or document it as incompatible. I think creating a cgroup for it should not be too hard
17:55:42 <jdubby> michael_slm Looks like its been dropped from the repositories to to FTBFS
17:55:46 <michel_slm> maybe we should document "if you have a service that is not packaged in Fedora, here's a sample systemd unit file you can use to launch it" as part of the change docs
17:56:22 <michel_slm> jdubby: :( ... the fate of many Java packages, unfortunately. that discussion in #fedora-java made it clear it's a really hard problem esp with Gradle
17:56:45 <nirik> +1 for a doc like that.
17:56:46 <michel_slm> since we're almost out of time -- any other feedback on oomd before we call this an open floor?
17:57:11 <michel_slm> (and we can continue this in the mailing list, there's an existing thread in devel@)
17:57:45 <smooge> I am +1 for the change
17:58:00 <michel_slm> nirik++ jdubby++ for the inputs on oomd
17:58:43 <michel_slm> jwhimpel++
17:58:43 <zodbot> michel_slm: Karma for jwhimpel changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:58:56 <michel_slm> #topic open floor
17:59:06 <PBoyHB> OK, open floor one minute?
17:59:54 <PBoyHB> Just a remark: our wiki pages are quite embarrassing.  At least we should simplpy delete somd very old stuff
18:01:29 <PBoyHB> And who will organize next meeting, Michel again?
18:01:38 <michel_slm> we can find all the pages we think should be gone, I guess?
18:01:59 <michel_slm> yeah, I can help organize that. We need to find a replacement for next month, I will be out for a month or so starting end of Feb
18:02:13 <jdubby> at linux-system-roles.github.io are a bunch of server subsystem roles.  Are these part of the Fedora Server product?
18:02:22 <michel_slm> (sorry, I meant identify the pages and then discuss them next time)
18:02:25 <PBoyHB> We could replace reports about irc from 2013 by those of 2020 / 2021, not much work
18:02:36 <michel_slm> jdubby: not yet, but I think mattdm suggested they should be
18:03:24 <michel_slm> PBoyHB: agreed, let's hope today's meeting is tagged properly
18:03:38 <PBoyHB> yes, we can identify and discuss.
18:04:23 <PBoyHB> OK Michel organizes next meeting,#
18:04:45 <michel_slm> #action Michel to chair next meeting
18:04:53 <michel_slm> that's it then?
18:05:02 <michel_slm> need to run to my next meeting :p. thanks everyone for coming!
18:05:11 <michel_slm> and PBoyHB for the PRD and documentation work
18:05:19 <michel_slm> #endmeeting