16:01:37 <adamw> #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
16:01:37 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov 30 16:01:37 2020 UTC.
16:01:37 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
16:01:37 <zodbot> The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:37 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_qa_meeting'
16:01:43 <adamw> #meetingname fedora-qa
16:01:43 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
16:01:46 <lruzicka> .hello2
16:01:47 <adamw> #topic Roll call
16:01:47 <zodbot> lruzicka: lruzicka 'Lukáš Růžička' <lruzicka@redhat.com>
16:01:54 <bcotton> .hello2
16:01:56 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
16:01:59 <pwhalen> .hello2
16:02:00 <zodbot> pwhalen: pwhalen 'Paul Whalen' <pwhalen@redhat.com>
16:02:00 <Southern_Gentlem> .hello jbwillia
16:02:03 <zodbot> Southern_Gentlem: jbwillia 'Ben Williams' <vaioof@gmail.com>
16:02:27 <kparal> .hello2
16:02:28 <zodbot> kparal: kparal 'Kamil Páral' <kparal@redhat.com>
16:06:55 <adamw> how's everyone doing this morning
16:06:59 <adamw> now we're in the right room and all
16:07:18 <adamw> also, does anyone remember what the thing was I said I'd put on the agenda? was that you, kparal?
16:07:50 * cmurf is here, or maybe over there
16:10:09 <kparal> I have no idea :)
16:10:17 <adamw> well then, never mind :P
16:10:36 <kparal> but I will hold it against you if I remember and I care about it
16:10:43 <adamw> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
16:10:52 <adamw> kparal: naturally
16:10:57 <adamw> you wouldn't believe all the things i'm holding against you
16:11:23 <adamw> #info there are no action items from last time
16:11:32 <adamw> anyone have anything not-action-item-y that we needed to follow up on?
16:11:48 <adamw> work on the blockerbugs feedback is moving along nicely
16:13:38 <kparal> yeah I still haven't read all ticket updates
16:13:53 <kparal> but some minor improvements were pushed already
16:14:11 <adamw> #info work on blockerbugs improvements is moving along nicely
16:14:27 <adamw> #topic Fedora 34 status and Changes
16:14:44 <adamw> #info we had about a week of no composes for various reasons
16:15:07 <adamw> #info we finally got a compose again a couple of days ago, I have not finished digging into the bugs that showed up in it yet, but it's in the "broadly OK but some broken stuff" category
16:15:26 <adamw> notable is that systemd seems to be segfaulting on shutdown and/or reboot sometimes, i need to get some more detail on that
16:16:10 <adamw> #info some Change proposals are ruffling feathers on devel@, the latest being a proposal to replace Pulseaudio and JACK by default with a new system called Pipewire which is intended to supersede both
16:16:50 <cmurf> is thre a way to capture journalctl output in openqa?
16:17:08 <lruzicka> Huh, I am very curious about this Pipewire change.
16:19:42 <adamw> cmur: sure, it does so for most failed tested
16:19:46 <adamw> ...sigh
16:19:53 <adamw> cmurf: sure, it does so for most failed tests
16:20:14 <adamw> it captures the whole of /var/log , including the systemd journal, which you can read with `journalctl --file (path/to/journal/file)`
16:20:30 <adamw> lruzicka: yes, so are lots of other people :)
16:20:57 <adamw> there's a feeling that it's possibly premature, mostly. i don't think anyone thinks it's not ultimately a good idea
16:21:23 <adamw> oh hey! this may actually be the thing i was thinking about for the agenda? anyhow. yeah, if we have anyone who is interested in sound stuff, one thing that could help is to come up with a better test plan for that Change
16:22:03 <adamw> #info the current test plan for the pipewire Change is thin: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DefaultPipeWire#How_To_Test
16:22:20 <adamw> someone has beefed it up a *bit* after mailing list discussion,  I think, but it's still pretty short
16:22:46 <adamw> it would help to come up with something better, ideally written into test cases so we could build one or more test days around them
16:23:07 <adamw> #info it would be good if we could beef that test plan up a bit, ideally using proper test cases so we can organize test days
16:23:12 <adamw> anyone interested in that?
16:23:40 <lruzicka> adamw, I have some recording stuff at home and use JACK to do it, so I could try
16:23:54 <lruzicka> adamw, sound recording is my hobby
16:25:44 <lruzicka> adamw, and I would be happy to work on that :)
16:27:13 <adamw> awesome, thanks a lot
16:27:26 <adamw> #action lruzicka to look into working up a better test plan for the pipewire change
16:27:34 <adamw> anything else on f34?
16:29:53 <adamw> #topic IRC vs. Matrix
16:30:07 <adamw> so i figured this might be an interesting one to kick around and leave in people's heads over the winter break
16:30:18 <copperi> ?
16:30:30 * kparal hopes to leave IRC in dust
16:30:50 <kparal> I asked some questions on the devel list thread today
16:30:58 <adamw> #info Matrix is an open source, open standard, federated chat system in the modern style - it presents more like something like Slack or Discord than IRC: https://matrix.org/
16:31:26 <adamw> #info various Fedora groups are looking into moving to using it over IRC, including - recently - the Council
16:31:40 <adamw> #info we could consider doing the same in QA
16:32:12 <lruzicka> Is there a Fedora application for Matrix?
16:33:01 <adamw> the main benefits of this would be that it's easier to get started using it than IRC - there is a pretty good webapp called Element that you can just sign up with through your browser - and that everyone would get the benefit of features you need a proxy for with IRC, like eternal logs, multiple clients, messages when you're away etc
16:33:09 <adamw> lruz: good question, the answer is yes-ish
16:33:41 <copperi> software store has several ?
16:34:10 <adamw> #info there is a webapp client called Element which many folks use - https://app.element.io/ , there is a "desktop" version of Element which is mostly just a thin wrapper around a browser library, and there are some real "desktop" clients. Most are available as Flatpaks, one called quaternion is in the repos
16:34:11 <kparal> so what exactly happens if the QA group votes for going with Matrix?
16:34:15 <adamw> I'm using quaternion right now
16:34:36 <adamw> kpar: well, i think there'd need to be a proposal more fleshed-out than "IRC vs. Matrix?" as a meeting topic to vote on, first :)
16:35:07 <lruzicka> copperi, indeed, there are several apps in repository
16:35:14 <adamw> but i guess it'd just mean we'd make a native Matrix room the "official" sync discussion location rather than an IRC channel - that'd mostly involve updating wiki pages and meeting/test day templats and things
16:35:52 <lruzicka> quaternion, neochat, nheko
16:35:55 <adamw> i guess we'd also run the meetings in Matrix when possible, though that might depend on tooling, I believe zodbot isn't implemented on matrix yet
16:35:56 <kparal> so we wouldn't use the #fedora-qa IRC channel bridged through Matrix, but use a native room?
16:36:15 <adamw> kpar: yeah. the native room could still be bridged to the IRC channel
16:36:32 <adamw> but we'd consider the room primary not the IRC channel. the IRC channel would be for folks from that xkcd comic. :P
16:36:36 <adamw> at least, that's how i'd think of it, i think
16:36:44 <adamw> sigh, quaternion feature request: implied tab completions
16:36:58 <kparal> I'm still missing something. Can I already connect to #fedora-qa through Matrix?
16:37:14 <adamw> obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1782/
16:37:19 <adamw> kpar: i was just about to get to that :D
16:38:40 <adamw> #info you can already access #fedora-qa on IRC through Element; there is a native Element room which is bridged to the IRC channel, the alias for it is #fedora-qa:matrix.org
16:39:22 <adamw> several other Fedora groups have native Element rooms bridged to their IRC channels, there are also generic matrix.org bridge channels for almost all freenode channels you can use to access other Fedora IRC channels from Element
16:39:24 <adamw> er
16:39:27 <adamw> Matrix, sigh
16:39:33 <adamw> i get the terms mixed up sometimes :D
16:39:37 <adamw> #undo
16:39:37 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by adamw at 16:38:40 : you can already access #fedora-qa on IRC through Element; there is a native Element room which is bridged to the IRC channel, the alias for it is #fedora-qa:matrix.org
16:39:53 <adamw> #info you can already access #fedora-qa on IRC through Matrix; there is a native Matrix room which is bridged to the IRC channel, the alias for it is #fedora-qa:matrix.org
16:40:33 <kparal> ok, so if we create a native room, it means we'll bridge it to #fedora-qa or some new irc channel that serves as the irc endpoint?
16:40:48 <kparal> because you just said the bridge to #fedora-qa already exists
16:40:52 <adamw> we already have one, bridged to #fedora-qa . that's where you're talking to me when you talk to me in #fedora-qa ATM :D
16:41:13 <adamw> if we made matrix "official" it'd mainly just mean pointing folks to that room rather than pointing them to #fedora-qa on IRC
16:41:26 <kparal> alright, so it's just a docs update
16:41:30 <adamw> mainly yeah
16:41:50 <kparal> and people can still use both irc and matrix as they feel fit
16:42:05 <adamw> of course, there'd be a tipping point where more folks were on matrix than IRC where native matrix features would start getting used more, like reactions and edits and stuff
16:42:08 <kparal> good for me, and let's do it today :)
16:42:10 <adamw> and i don't think all those make it through a bridge
16:42:26 <adamw> so there might come a point where you'd want to be on the matrix side unless you're that xkcd person :P
16:42:47 <copperi> within next 55 yrs :)
16:42:56 <kparal> I'm sure we have a few of them around
16:43:29 * kparal will create a matrix account
16:43:32 <adamw> the other thing is that as part of the Council proposal they're talking about having a Fedora 'homeserver' (which is the server end of matrix - the current Fedora QA room is on the matrix.org "homeserver"
16:43:49 <adamw> so if we get an official Fedora homeserver we'd obviously want the official matrix room to be there
16:43:55 <kparal> can the room be moved?
16:44:06 <adamw> i was just about to say I dunno :)
16:44:14 <kparal> ok
16:44:40 <adamw> i mean, it's an open protocol so presumably even if the answer is "no" you could *make* it possible to clone a room to another homeserver
16:44:46 <adamw> no idea how technically difficult it'd be
16:44:48 <lruzicka> we might create a "temporary fedora qa" and then another one "final" on the Fedora homeserver
16:44:58 <adamw> i will look into it
16:45:14 <adamw> #action adamw to look into details of matrix hosting, like can rooms be moved across homeservers
16:45:32 * kparal is hyped on ditching the irc setup
16:45:46 <adamw> is there anyone here who's relatively new to fedora QA? if so, what do you think of the idea? was IRC any kind of barrier to joining for you?
16:45:52 * adamw brb
16:46:22 <kparal> I'd say that anyone for whom it was a barrier is not present :D
16:46:51 <copperi> new to QA, but very long time IRC user (previous century ...)
16:47:13 <Southern_Gentlem> initial barrier i think are about the same in either case
16:47:48 <Southern_Gentlem> we will see when people start spambots for matrix
16:48:26 <adamw> heh
16:49:00 <adamw> kparal: I've been using it for about a week and honestly purely using it for bridged IRC channels as a replacement for a tuned IRC proxy it's not quite as good, but it's good *enough* that i'm sticking with it
16:50:17 <adamw> but i think it'd be a big improvement overall for everyone if it mostly superseded IRC. it's silly expecting people to learn a lot about IRC and run or get access to a proxy to have a reasonable experience
16:50:33 <adamw> also it is nice not having to maintain and run the damn proxy any more :P
16:50:41 <kparal> +1 to that
16:52:13 <adamw> ok, so i just wanted to kick this around for now and see if anyone already had deep and considered thoughts on it
16:52:46 <adamw> sounds like initial response is vaguely "sure sounds interesting" so i guess i'll look into some details and come up with a more specific proposal next year
16:53:05 <adamw> #action adamw to look into more details around Matrix and make a more specific proposal if it still seems like a good idea in the new year
16:53:09 <lruzicka> adamw, beginning of next year?
16:54:13 <adamw> hopefully!
16:54:24 <adamw> #info it seems sumantro isn't around, so we'll skip the next topic
16:54:26 <adamw> #topic Open floor
16:54:33 <adamw> any other business, folks?
16:54:40 <sumantro> I was on PTO for a long time...we didnt have any movement on the test days.
16:54:46 <Southern_Gentlem> of course all the old farts will do it (kicking and screaming all the way)
16:54:46 <sumantro> adamw, I am here :D
16:55:05 <adamw> ah sorry!
16:55:14 <adamw> i looked back at the startup process and didn't see you check in
16:55:20 <adamw> circling back
16:55:29 <adamw> #topic Test Day / community event status
16:55:34 <adamw> so, what's the word, sumantro?
16:56:23 <sumantro> Nothing much, there wasnt at all any movement on test days , But  I am hopful to set up an onboarding call mid december
16:56:29 <sumantro> before 15th that is
16:56:43 <sumantro> and *maybe* a virtualization test day too
16:57:52 <sumantro> I was on long PTOs and just came back today
16:58:15 <adamw> no problem
16:58:39 <adamw> #info we don't have much going on with events right now, sumantro just came back from time off
16:58:55 <adamw> still a couple of months till 34 branches, so plenty of time to set things up
16:59:23 <adamw> #info there may be an onboarding call mid-december
16:59:28 <adamw> #topic Open floor
17:00:31 <adamw> welp, that's time
17:00:34 <adamw> see everyone in the new year :D
17:00:47 <kparal> 🎆️
17:00:50 <adamw> thanks for coming, everybody! happy socially distanced holidays
17:00:58 <kparal> :-)
17:01:30 <cmurf> :)
17:02:46 <adamw> #endmeeting