16:00:02 <nirik> #startmeeting Fedora Mobility SIG
16:00:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Oct  6 16:00:02 2020 UTC.
16:00:02 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
16:00:02 <zodbot> The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_mobility_sig'
16:00:02 <nirik> #meetingname fedora_mobility_sig
16:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_mobility_sig'
16:00:02 <nirik> #topic Introductions / init process
16:00:21 <nirik> hey everyone. who's around for a mobility sig meeting?
16:00:32 * pbrobinson o/
16:00:45 <torbuntu> Hello!
16:00:45 <thunderysteak> Ello
16:01:00 <_Yoda> Yo
16:01:05 * pwhalen waves
16:02:01 <nirik> hey all. If everyone would like to give quick intros? for me: I have 2 pinephones (1 ubtouch 2GB and 1 postmarketos 3GB)... In my day job I manage infrastructure for fedora.
16:02:49 <torbuntu> I have 1 Braveheart phone and a Manjaro CE (3GB) on preorder. My day job is a java dev but in my free time I try to help package some mobile-related apps for Fedora.
16:02:57 <pbrobinson> I am the Fedora IoT and Arm leads and do random bringups of all sorts of devices. I have lots of random Arm devices including a BraveHeard edition pinephone
16:03:39 <defolos> I have no pinephone but I'm considering buying one to put Fedora on it 😉
16:03:54 <_Yoda> 1 BH and 1 PMoS 3GB phone and 1 pinetab
16:04:21 <thunderysteak> I have a 3GB postmarketOS pinephone and my day job is hardware support engineer/hardwware reliability engineer
16:04:42 <nirik> Cool. Welcome everyone.
16:05:00 <nirik> #topic Pinephone plans
16:05:01 <pwhalen> Good morning folks , I am the QA lead for ARM, AArch64 and IoT. I don't have a Pinephone yet but hope to get one shortly
16:05:40 <nirik> I didn't have much of an agenda today... I wanted to talk about plans for pinephone and perhaps if we want to revive the mailing list or use the arm one.
16:05:59 <pbrobinson> my intention is to get everything into Fedora and get an official spin, there will be a lot of steps to get there, I hope to not have to do them all myself ;-)
16:06:33 <torbuntu> Relating to a spin, will this be explicitly for the PinePhone? Or will it be a "Mobile Spin" available (in time) for other devices as well (Pinetab, Librem5, etc...)
16:06:49 <nirik> yeah, there's a lot to upstream right now. ;( But... perhaps we could focus on a 'all fedora userspace' and a remix kernel short term, then move to fedora kernel once enough is upstreamed?
16:07:06 <nirik> torbuntu: good question!
16:08:27 <nirik> ideally we structure it so it could run on a variety of devices if they are supported... if we can conditionalize any pinephone specific hacks that would be good.
16:08:30 <pbrobinson> torbuntu: intention is a phone/tablet spin, I don't do device specific, too much hassle
16:08:59 <pbrobinson> my step one is, as nirik mentioned, a Fedora userspace with a copr kernel
16:09:02 <torbuntu> Awesome! That is what I wanted to see
16:09:17 <pbrobinson> torbuntu: none of our arm images are device specific
16:09:21 <nirik> I think also we should start out with a basic normal fedora (rpms, btrfs fs) until we have that pretty working/stable and then look at ostree after that...
16:09:48 <nirik> much easier to get working without too many changes at once.
16:10:04 <torbuntu> Yes, as a user of Fedora Silverblue on my main machines, I would love to see that sort of OS on this.
16:10:08 <pbrobinson> nirik++ while the end goal IMO is a ostree based spin, in the short term to easily hack on it a traditional image is more straight forward
16:11:23 <pbrobinson> also my intention is only aarch64 atm, although there is a bunch of possible ARMv7 devices (I have n900, n950 eg) I don't think there'll be enough demand for the effort
16:11:40 <nirik> yeah.
16:12:59 <nirik> so, how should we coordinate / move forward here?
16:13:16 <thunderysteak> I don't think there are any up to date ARMv7 devices we could port Fedora to unless we downgraded the kernel. For android for example, you'd have to backport stuff from the kernel sources released by the manufacturer
16:13:28 <pbrobinson> thunderysteak: no up to date ones
16:13:29 <torbuntu> So as far as user space Fedora, it seems we have made some good progress getting a lot of useful software packaged and in main Fedora repos now. But there is a blocker on Chatty due to a plugin, and it looks like some helpers/firmware for PinePhone specifically in Copr.
16:13:35 <defolos> <pbrobinson "nirik++ while the end goal IMO i"> sounds like a solid initial plan
16:13:59 <pbrobinson> thunderysteak: there's a few other devices out there with upstream support but unless there's demand it's not worth the effort
16:14:39 <pbrobinson> torbuntu: what's the chatty plugin? Can it be compiled with that disabled?
16:15:07 <pbrobinson> is the firmware the wifi/BT firmware or others?
16:15:22 <torbuntu> The firmware I believe is for bluetooth specifically
16:15:32 <torbuntu> Looks like there is a ticket for chatty now: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1870890
16:16:08 <thunderysteak> From the discussion I've seen in the fedora-phone chat, the firmware in the copr is only for bluetooth.
16:16:10 <torbuntu> The firmware is for rtl8723cs which I believe is Pinephone bluetooth
16:17:39 <_Yoda> rtl8723cs is both wifi and bluetooth chip - but yes, the firmware is for bluetooth
16:17:49 <nirik> thats both.
16:18:13 <nirik> well, the device is both... yeah.
16:18:35 <nirik> Also, current rawhide images don't boot on the 3GB phones... I guess it needs some uboot patches?
16:18:39 <pbrobinson> thunderysteak: got a link to that, it likely shouldn't be there as it's likely not re-distributable
16:19:01 <_Yoda> yes - my uboot has those patches
16:19:02 <pbrobinson> nirik: yep, on my list
16:19:04 <torbuntu> https://gitlab.com/fedora-mobile/rtl8723cs-firmware/
16:19:15 <pbrobinson> torbuntu: but is it in copr?
16:19:24 <torbuntu> yes, this is where the spec builds from.
16:19:31 <torbuntu> https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/njha/mobile/package/rtl8723cs-firmware/
16:19:32 <thunderysteak> @pbrobinson https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/njha/mobile/package/rtl8723cs-firmware/
16:20:09 <pbrobinson> nirik: do you know the details about copr and binary firmware?
16:20:26 <nirik> pbrobinson: I think this one is ok...
16:20:32 <pbrobinson> OK, cool
16:20:39 <nirik> https://github.com/anarsoul/rtl8723bt-firmware/blob/master/LICENCE.rtlwifi_firmware.txt
16:21:02 <nirik> it's redistributable without modifications, which is the 'firmware' exception fedora uses for linux-firmware, etc.
16:21:10 <pbrobinson> right
16:21:34 <nirik> anyhow, the wifi is more important IMHO. ;)
16:22:08 <nirik> so, do folks want me to revive the mobility list? or just use arm list? or just avoid lists and use chat?
16:22:38 <thunderysteak> Yeah I imagine that's why people use the megous kernel to get wifi working
16:22:59 <pbrobinson> I would use a combination of arm list and chat
16:23:08 <torbuntu> Agree ^
16:23:13 <_Yoda> I don't see a mobility list on gmane
16:23:22 <nirik> sounds fine to me.
16:23:50 <nirik> _Yoda: it's a fedora list, but it's set inactive... so it probibly dropped off gmane...
16:23:52 <pbrobinson> Yoda: I think we retired that a good 5+ years ago
16:24:17 <_Yoda> so we stay with arm, then
16:24:24 <defolos> arm list sounds like a better spot to me
16:24:36 <thunderysteak> A combination of a mailing list and chat would be good, as IRC is not asynchronous chat with no history
16:25:14 <nirik> #info will use the existing arm list and #fedora-phone / #fedora-arm for communications.
16:25:58 <defolos> it is if you join via matrix 😉
16:26:17 <thunderysteak> True
16:26:36 <pbrobinson> or use a proxy ;-)
16:26:56 <nirik> so, whats next steps? I guess pbrobinson can setup a copr for image/kernel? is there packaging work still needing doing? I can do reviews/sponsor folks if I can find the time...
16:27:21 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM/PinePhone could probibly use some updating.
16:27:50 <pbrobinson> I've sponsored a few people
16:28:05 <pbrobinson> revive the mobility SIG wiki page?
16:28:06 <torbuntu> Thank you again.
16:28:16 <nirik> pbrobinson: I did do that...
16:28:28 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mobility
16:28:50 <nirik> also needs work
16:28:57 <pbrobinson> there's a phosh-desktop group in comps, likely needs updating for any new pacakges added
16:28:59 <torbuntu> We could add Calls under Current Status :)
16:29:38 <pbrobinson> https://paste.centos.org/view/feef29af
16:29:45 <nirik> #info updates on wiki pages welcome: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM/PinePhone https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mobility
16:29:45 <pbrobinson> that's what's currently in there for F-34
16:29:57 <nirik> #info phosh-desktop comps group was added.
16:30:05 <thunderysteak> I think in my opinion we should first identify current blockers, what's causing them, prioritize and then work from that
16:31:36 <pbrobinson> there's a RHBZ tracker bug for mobility here https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1817424
16:31:39 <nirik> well, the big blocker I see is getting kernel patches upstreamed...
16:31:59 <pbrobinson> please add any bugs to block against it, would be good to note it in the wiki too
16:32:17 <nirik> nice
16:32:20 <pbrobinson> yes, so I see the following issues from my head:
16:32:26 * King_InuYasha waves
16:32:32 <pbrobinson> 1) kernel patches upstream
16:32:51 <pbrobinson> 2) U-boot issues upstream, there's been a series of patches around that already
16:33:24 <pbrobinson> 3) support for crust PMU firmware - a number of items there, I've got most of that on my list
16:33:49 <pbrobinson> 4) a copr kernel based on Fedora's for an initial remix
16:33:55 <pbrobinson> 5) Initial remix
16:34:12 <pbrobinson> 6) polish and optimisations
16:34:32 <pbrobinson> 7) a ostree based spin, this is the end game
16:34:44 <pbrobinson> I think we can get a remix in the F-34 timeframe
16:35:27 <pbrobinson> not like I'm going to be sitting on a beach drinking beer over christmas this year, will need something to do while freezing my arse off
16:35:32 <King_InuYasha> haha
16:35:33 <nirik> sounds good to me. I wish I could help more, but upstreaming kernel stuff is not easy. ;)
16:35:54 <King_InuYasha> I've also been talking to the folks in the UBports community about bringing Lomiri into Fedora
16:36:15 <thunderysteak> Oh that would be awesome
16:36:17 <King_InuYasha> the F34 timeframe sounds like a solid point that we can get Lomiri in and have a remix for that
16:36:24 <_Yoda> plasma mobile would also be nice to have
16:36:42 <King_InuYasha> _Yoda: that will probably require coordination with Fedora KDE SIG for that
16:36:45 <nirik> I think once the base layer is solid we can start doing flavors...
16:37:01 <thunderysteak> Yeah we do need a solid base first
16:37:04 <King_InuYasha> insofar as Lomiri goes, I'm already the maintainer for the mir Wayland compositor package, which is the core dependency for Lomiri
16:37:07 <torbuntu> We already have Phosh and even GNOME "works" for the current image. My opinion would be for the Remix release to polish that up.
16:37:07 <pbrobinson> nirik: you'll likely be of great help with remix images ;-)
16:37:20 <pbrobinson> King_InuYasha: what is Lomiri?
16:37:49 <King_InuYasha> a community fork of the Unity environment for desktop and mobile maintained by the UBports community
16:37:52 <nirik> yeah, I think we should use phosh initially at least... it seems the most solid of them and we already have it packaged
16:38:07 <torbuntu> ^ exactly.
16:38:09 <King_InuYasha> it's considered the most complete mobile desktop environment
16:38:26 <kwizart> phosh requires gl support ?
16:38:31 <pbrobinson> my intention is to initially do and focus on a phosh remix
16:38:37 <King_InuYasha> they've been spending the last year cleaning out Ubuntu-isms and Canonical-isms to work on other distros, and it now exists in Manjaro and Debian
16:38:57 <nirik> the big win phosh has is the 'resize applications to fit' thing. Thats really useful
16:39:11 <nirik> kwizart: I think so yeah...
16:39:15 <King_InuYasha> I'm not promising that we'll have a remix in F34 timeframe with Lomiri, but I'm hoping we can start moving the packages from the lomiri copr into Fedora itself
16:39:33 <thunderysteak> I tested the Manjaro version and for the distro itself being in alpha stage the Lomiri interface works well
16:39:47 <King_InuYasha> https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/erlend/lomiri-on-fedora/
16:40:09 <King_InuYasha> the one doing the lomiri fedora port is in the fedora-phone telegram group;
16:40:51 <King_InuYasha> it's not _exactly_ ready yet for upstreaming into fedora, but I'm working with upstream to figure that plan out
16:41:17 <King_InuYasha> mariogrip in the telegram group is a member of the Lomiri dev team upstream
16:41:32 <pbrobinson> well just like traditional desktop UXes there's no reason not to have options, but they're a lot of work to maintain so it also needs to have people to do the work
16:41:33 <nirik> cool.
16:41:46 <pbrobinson> I don't think we need to go into vast detail of that now
16:41:48 <King_InuYasha> pbrobinson: yup, and in this case there is someone interested ;)
16:41:57 <King_InuYasha> just bringing it up in case others didn't know
16:42:57 <_Yoda> pbrobinson: lomiri is much more mature and advanced than Phosh is - just not on fedora yet
16:43:32 <nirik> so, would it help any to list out use cases/things we need to work to use it as a daily phone?
16:43:52 <pbrobinson> _Yoda: which means it's not mature ;-)
16:43:58 <King_InuYasha> heh
16:44:05 <King_InuYasha> well, it's feature-complete :P
16:44:10 <pbrobinson> nirik: calls, SMS, browser, updates ;-)
16:44:13 <King_InuYasha> maturity comes once it's in Fedora itself
16:44:17 <_Yoda> with uboot/crust the phone rejects a call in suspend
16:44:36 <_Yoda> this is a major problem
16:44:53 <thunderysteak> @nirik it needs to first function as a phone, so we have to get phone and messaging working reliably first
16:45:20 <_Yoda> calls and sms does work normally on it
16:45:20 <nirik> pbrobinson: yeah... I guess I was more going for 'here's fedora apps that do X that you may want to use on your phone for Y' like... maps? ebook readers? etc
16:45:30 <pbrobinson> Yoda: given we don't support crust yet, it's not a problem ;-) it may well be fixed once the support is upstreamed
16:45:35 <nirik> thunderysteak: yeah, and wifi
16:45:47 <pbrobinson> Yoda: and I'd call that a "feature" anyway :-P
16:45:54 <stevenvb[m]11> sorry im being late, but yes indeed we need to woork on sms and calls first i think, make it stable for both braveheart (with suspend or without but stable) and the 3g versions. I think stable is the key here if we want to attract users.
16:46:04 <nirik> sorry, didn't get your call, my phone was suspended! :)
16:46:23 <nirik> welcome stevenvb[m]11
16:46:50 <_Yoda> and 5 mins after it ill be suspended again
16:47:31 <stevenvb[m]11> Is installing to emmc already discussed? since its way more stable and fast then the mmc i used before. Is that working?
16:47:44 <pbrobinson> anyway I think we have a reasonable start, and for those that missed can read back and someone can link the meeting notes in the wiki
16:47:50 <thunderysteak> I do believe eMMC is an uboot issue
16:47:50 <_Yoda> installing to emmc should work fine
16:48:11 <nirik> so, we have a bit less than 15m left... do we want to action anything? do we want to meet again? next week? 2 weeks? once a month?
16:48:37 <nirik> yeah, installing to emmc needs that tool tho... who's name escapes me.
16:48:50 <_Yoda> jumpdrive
16:49:07 <King_InuYasha> probably weekly meetings makes sense, assuming you're progressing that quickly
16:49:14 <_Yoda> or you can just copy an image from your bootable SDcard
16:49:17 <pbrobinson> stevenvb[m]11: not looked at that yet
16:49:30 <King_InuYasha> something I would suggest that has worked out really well for Fedora Workstation and Fedora KDE is having a pagure project where you do project tracking
16:49:40 <pbrobinson> I'm going to circle back to the pinephone in general once F-33 is done
16:49:42 <nirik> jumpdrive, thats it. Is that open source? perhaps we should package it?
16:49:45 <King_InuYasha> https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation and https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG
16:50:12 <nirik> yeah, we could do a mobility pagure if folks would like...
16:50:14 <_Yoda> yes, opensource
16:50:18 <rinigus> hi! I am working on related effort with packaging open-source bits of sailfish to fedora. it is a part of work on nemo mobile with an idea of basing nemo on fedora and sfos open source parts (kind of a mix). so, sounds like it is all rather complimentary to this effort
16:50:24 <King_InuYasha> nirik: it's helped show new people what we're doing :)
16:50:29 <King_InuYasha> and makes it easier to onboard
16:50:43 <King_InuYasha> rinigus: that sounds awesome
16:51:14 <rinigus> as we are used to obs, we work on suse obs but use f32 currently as a base
16:51:31 <thunderysteak> @nirik I think for repeatable meetings I'd be good to think about alternative meeting times, as people said that in this timeframe they have work meetings
16:51:40 <King_InuYasha> rinigus: we can work out transitioning those packages into Fedora itself as things are working
16:51:43 <nirik> rinigus: yeah, all the lower level stuff should help your efforts too I would think.
16:52:08 <nirik> thunderysteak: sure, happy to try another time(s).
16:52:24 <King_InuYasha> rinigus: I also have some scripts for using dist-git to source packages for OBS builds which may help
16:52:52 <stevenvb[m]11> but indeed we need some platform (pagure, others) where we can see what needs to be done and who is working on what?
16:53:02 <rinigus> such transition should work. as many of these bits have been working for years on sfos, they should be of help to any linux mobile.
16:53:09 <King_InuYasha> :)
16:53:15 <stevenvb[m]11> because only using the chat is not very clear for newcomers/outsiders?
16:53:31 <nirik> stevenvb[m]11: yeah. I'll make one.
16:53:31 <thunderysteak> Yeah, we need some tracking
16:53:34 <King_InuYasha> stevenvb[m]11: a pagure project is a lot less ephemeral :)
16:54:10 <nirik> https://pagure.io/fedora-mobility
16:54:12 <rinigus> King_InuYasha: we have mostly packaged large number already by adjusting _service files accordingly, but I could look at the scripts if some is missing.
16:54:17 <nirik> I can add folks.
16:54:29 <defolos> <stevenvb[m]11 "but indeed we need some platform"> https://teams.fedoraproject.org ?
16:54:30 <King_InuYasha> rinigus: can you provide a link to your stuff?
16:54:46 <King_InuYasha> defolos: pagure also has kanban features ;)
16:54:50 <pbrobinson> nirik: feel free to add me
16:54:51 <rinigus> https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/home:neochapay:nemo see subprojects
16:55:00 <King_InuYasha> nirik: add me as well, please :)
16:55:18 <rinigus> I will move sony tama there today as well
16:55:19 <torbuntu> I'd like to be added too please.
16:55:28 <stevenvb[m]11> wel for me it does not really matter which one, but i think we should decide where to do it and mention this first in the wiki page.
16:55:47 <thunderysteak> nirik: regarding the meeting timing, I'd suggest setting a poll for optional time where most people can join the meetings
16:55:55 <stevenvb[m]11> i want to join as well, i cant promise i have a lot of time though
16:56:13 <rinigus> King_InuYasha: maps software at https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/home:rinigus:maps
16:56:17 <stevenvb[m]11> i work on embedded devices making mpls networks (OTN Systems Xtran for thos intrested)
16:56:42 <nirik> torbuntu / pbrobinson / King_InuYasha: all added.
16:56:50 <King_InuYasha> nirik: thank you :)
16:56:50 <torbuntu> Thank you!
16:56:56 <pbrobinson> nirik++
16:57:04 <nirik> any others? give me your fas name and can add you. ;)
16:57:11 <Conan_Kudo> nirik++
16:57:41 <King_InuYasha> rinigus: I think there's going to be some cleanup work to be done here, but this is a good starting point
16:58:00 <nirik> ok, we are almost out of time. we can decide on when next meeting is via ticket or the like...
16:58:11 <nirik> anyhing else anyone wants to quickly add?
16:58:32 <rinigus> King_InuYasha: we currently are focused on booting it all up. got recovery image working last night on sony, but that's just a small beginnig
16:58:43 <King_InuYasha> awesome
16:58:48 <rinigus> so, no wonder if lots needs to be cleaned :)
16:59:04 <King_InuYasha> yeah makes sense :)
16:59:15 <thunderysteak> Nothing from me, I primarely only can do testing due of lack of knowledge unfortunately
16:59:34 <stevenvb[m]11> stevenvdb
16:59:58 <King_InuYasha> at some point I'll need to pick up a pinephone
17:00:06 <King_InuYasha> and maybe someday my librem 5 will ship...
17:00:28 <defolos> <King_InuYasha "at some point I'll need to pick "> they have some in stock currently 😉
17:00:39 <nirik> stevenvb[m]11: you may need to login there to have your account appear so I can add you.
17:00:50 <nirik> ok, thanks everyone!
17:00:57 <nirik> I think it was a good start...
17:01:00 <nirik> #endmeeting