15:13:22 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig
15:13:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 13 15:13:22 2018 UTC.
15:13:22 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:13:22 <zodbot> The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:13:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:13:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:13:28 <rdieter> #topic roll call
15:13:34 <rdieter> friendly kde-sig meeting, who's present today?
15:13:51 <bcotton> .hello2
15:13:55 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
15:16:31 <rdieter> may be a quick meeting
15:17:07 <Son_Goku> .hello ngompa
15:17:08 <zodbot> Son_Goku: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
15:17:56 <rdieter> #info rdieter bcotton ngompa present
15:19:09 * rdieter waits another minute for late arrivals
15:20:00 <rdieter> #topic agenda
15:20:19 <rdieter> all I have is the libreoffice/qt5-enablement topic, which we'd started onlist https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/IHEPGF3C67E2JQ2R23UUKZEWMYYVGRSH/
15:20:33 <rdieter> I suppose can give brief status on recent bodhi updates too
15:20:38 <rdieter> anything else?
15:20:39 * marcdeop is here
15:20:45 <rdieter> #info marcdeop present
15:20:46 <rdieter> hi
15:20:51 * bcotton has nothing
15:21:43 <tosky> hi
15:21:52 <Son_Goku> while I don't like the GTK+3 dependency, I like the Qt4 dependency even less
15:21:58 <rdieter> #info tosky present
15:22:13 <rdieter> k, let's get started then
15:22:20 <rdieter> #topic bodhi status
15:22:37 <rdieter> start with easy one, bodhi status report on recent updates
15:23:01 <rdieter> kf5-5.52.0 is in updates-testing, https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2018-6c2a374e6b and https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2018-3d20d4057f
15:23:28 <rdieter> kde pim 18.08.3 stack f29/updates-testing https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2018-7ea8364555
15:23:47 <rdieter> f27 plasma-5.12.7 updates-testing https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2018-7091a3f566
15:24:48 <rdieter> and once kf5-5.52.0 lands in stable updates, f29 plasma-5.14.3 is prepped https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2018-9c500b8e48
15:25:12 <marcdeop> any news on f28 land?
15:25:34 <rdieter> marcdeop: one of those kf5 updates above was for f28
15:25:52 <rdieter> or did you have something more specific in mind?
15:26:12 <rdieter> plasma ?
15:26:19 <marcdeop> no, I just missed the second link on your first message. Apologies
15:26:46 <marcdeop> I would wonder about the KDE Applications but I dunno what are the intentions on f28 for those
15:26:53 <rdieter> I did think it worth discussing if we should spend effort on one more plasma-5.x+1 update for f28 or not though
15:27:39 <rdieter> kde-apps is in the same boat.  once f27 goes eol, then f28 will go into bugfix/security only mode
15:29:20 <rdieter> k, moving on...
15:29:46 <rdieter> #topic libreoffice qt5 enablement, kde4 deprecation
15:29:58 <rdieter> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/IHEPGF3C67E2JQ2R23UUKZEWMYYVGRSH/  I raised this thread onlist
15:30:14 <tosky> it may really be two separate steps, depending on what libreoffice maintainers think
15:30:19 <rdieter> .bug 1647233
15:30:20 <zodbot> rdieter: Bug 1647233 – VCL gtk3-kde5 is available with 6.1 and should be enabled with --enable-gtk3-kde5 - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1647233
15:30:40 <Son_Goku> I think it probably makes sense to go ahead and enable the gtk3-kde5 one for now
15:30:47 <Son_Goku> especially since it lets us drop a major qt4 dep
15:30:48 <rdieter> tosky: maintainer made it clear he wants to drop kde4 as soon as possible
15:31:11 <Son_Goku> especially since the qt5-kde5 implementation is less than four months away
15:31:11 <rdieter> but I'm sure he'll follow any reasonable request/recommendation from us too
15:31:59 <rdieter> <nod>, I don't think there's any question we want kf5 enablement asap
15:32:05 <marcdeop> what are the implications of dropping kde4 support? as in... what functionalities will be missing?
15:32:22 <tosky> I would be in favor of using the mixed gtk3-qt5 stuff replacing the kdelibs 4.x version, but if it's too controversial, and the libreoffice maintainers are willing to keep one package
15:32:32 <tosky> we could ask them to just enable the new package
15:33:06 <tosky> subpackage
15:33:09 <marcdeop> random thought: is it possible to have a "conflicting" package and then give the two options to the users?
15:33:44 <rdieter> question is when to deprecate kde4
15:34:08 <marcdeop> rdieter: the answer to that for me relies on how much functionality would be lost
15:34:14 <rdieter> marcdeop: that's not a good option, imho
15:34:33 <marcdeop> rdieter: if the intentions is to simplify stuff... is definitely not a good option
15:34:38 <rdieter> it's mostly cosmetic stuff, but I suppose the most visible thing is file dialog
15:35:15 <rdieter> 2 motivations: qt4/kde4 stuff is generally not well supported anymore, so will need to drop sooner or later
15:35:30 <tosky> as I said, I'd deprecate the old one now, but if the native Qt5 full solution is out before the freeze of F30 maybe we can just ask to drop the kdelibs 4.x version just before the release
15:35:34 <rdieter> and simplification, of course
15:35:49 <Son_Goku> while I don't like the GTK+3 dependency, I like the Qt4 dependency even less, so I'd say, let's go ahead and enable the gtk3-qt5 stuff and switch the default
15:35:55 <Son_Goku> for plasma
15:36:16 <Son_Goku> and since the native qt5 stuff is going to arrive soon, I don't see a problem with this
15:36:49 <rdieter> so, plasma doesn't include libreoffice, so "switch the default", doesn't really mean anything
15:37:06 <Son_Goku> if libreoffice is installed, it should use the kde5 integration by default, ne?
15:37:15 <rdieter> but... we can work to add some soft deps to help that, yeah
15:37:23 <Son_Goku> so if there's subpackages involved, we should have the hints via rich deps or whatnot
15:37:30 <marcdeop> just to clarify, are we talking about this: http://anzwix.com/a/LibreOffice/Add%20KDE5%20Desktop%20Backend ? because the commiter says that functionality is complete. If so... my vote is to enable gtk3-qt5
15:37:37 <Son_Goku> anyway, I gotta get going, so just for the record, my vote is that we should do it, since it's better than kde4 anyway
15:37:45 <Son_Goku> bye folks
15:40:29 <tosky> so far there is this gtk3-kde5 backend; if the new one is out, would the libreoffice packagers use the same subpackage name or a new one?
15:40:56 <rdieter> new one I'd imagine, since the current one is named -kde4
15:41:35 <rdieter> something would have to obsolete/replace it though, so it would make sense for the new thing to do just that
15:42:53 <rdieter> So concrete options to recommend:  1.  add gtk3-kde5 backend only, deprecate/remove -kde4 at some later date , 2.  add gtk3-kde5 to replace -kde4 (ie, drop kde4 now)
15:43:01 <tosky> I mean, if they package the gtk3-kde5 version now, and then later libreoffice 6.2 ships with the full qt5 version, would they need to defined two different subpackages? One for each of them?
15:43:33 <rdieter> hrm, maybe I'm missing something, there are more then 1 qt5 thing we're talking about here?
15:43:37 <tosky> yes
15:43:45 <tosky> Kevin pointed it out in his comment iirc
15:43:53 <rdieter> ok, that was not clear to me
15:44:14 <tosky> libreoffice 6.2 is going to ship this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/6.2#KDE_5
15:44:22 <tosky> (ill-named, but still, native Qt5)
15:44:58 <rdieter> so that sounds like a full/proper replacement for current -kde4 alright
15:45:09 <rdieter> how does that differ from gtk3-kde5 ?
15:45:27 <tosky> no gtk, afaik
15:46:12 <rdieter> ok, so I think I have a better recommendation to consider then. :)
15:47:58 <rdieter> 3.  add gtk3-kde5 asap/now.  add full kde_5 thing when available (in 6.2) to obsolete/replace -kde4.  At that time, consider dropping the intermediate gtk3-kde5 thing too
15:49:29 <tosky> according the libreoffice roadmap, 6.2 should land in January 2019
15:49:36 <tosky> when is the freeze for F30?
15:49:57 <rdieter> or stronger option 4: add gtk3-kde5 to obsolete -kde4 asap/now.  kde_5 can then replace gtk3-kde5 when it's available
15:50:43 <bcotton> tosky: beta freeze begins Tue 2019-03-05
15:51:00 <tosky> so libreoffice 6.2 should definitely be there
15:51:02 <rdieter> thanks, found full schedule at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/30/Schedule for posterity
15:51:37 <marcdeop> I vote for option 4 because qt4 is *OLD* and, as we have a dependency that we don't want I rather have the "less bad" which in this case would be gtk3
15:51:44 <tosky> according https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/6.2
15:51:54 <rdieter> or even simpler option:  5. enable kde_5 in 6.2 to replace -kde4
15:52:26 <tosky> marcdeop: but we don't have a dependency; you don't need to install that module right now
15:52:35 <rdieter> marcdeop: this likely won't be available until f30 anyway (not sure if maintainer is open to adding this feature in f29 or not)
15:52:36 <tosky> rdieter: just please call it kf5
15:52:37 <tosky> :)
15:52:56 <rdieter> tosky: I know, I'm just using the same terminoligy that libreoffice is for consistency
15:53:15 <tosky> yeah
15:53:35 <rdieter> (it hurts my eyes reading it that way, agreed though)
15:53:54 <marcdeop> tosky: true that!
15:54:20 <rdieter> if maintainer is open for incremental changes, I'll recommend option 4, otherwise 5
15:54:33 <tosky> I agree
15:54:34 <rdieter> hows that sound?
15:55:00 <tosky> it depends on how much they can change those subpackages; and this is for rawhide only
15:55:39 <tosky> I suspect that they will start packaging alphas and betas of 6.2 soon
15:56:09 <tosky> uhm, there are no alpha/beta packages for libreoffice 6.1, but they did it for 6.0 last year
15:56:36 <rdieter> ok, I think we have a semi-consensus then, thanks, anything else on this topic? or move on?
15:56:58 <tosky> so if they plan to start working on 6.2, they can do the switch directly to the native qt5-kde5 thing and deprecate the kdelibs 4 version
15:57:18 <rdieter> <nod>
15:57:33 <rdieter> eep, I guess I have a hard stop in a few minutes, another meeting to go to @dayjob
15:57:34 * marcdeop agrees with tosky and rdieter
15:57:46 <rdieter> so we can end things here
15:58:07 <rdieter> marcdeop: thanks for help push that along
15:58:14 <rdieter> helping to push that along, I mean
15:58:31 <rdieter> and thanks everyone for coming today
15:58:33 <rdieter> #endmeeting