15:00:29 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig
15:00:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jan 16 15:00:29 2018 UTC.  The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:29 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:00:33 <rdieter> #meetingname kde-sig
15:00:33 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:00:38 <rdieter> #topic roll call
15:00:48 <rdieter> hi all, friendly kde-sig meeting about to start, who's present today?
15:01:09 <tosky> hi
15:01:31 <lupinix> hi
15:01:42 <than> present
15:02:09 <rdieter> #info rdieter tosky lupinix than present
15:02:21 <rdieter> #chair tosky lupinix than
15:02:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: lupinix rdieter than tosky
15:03:13 <rdieter> was hoping to see jgrulich and hear how plasma-5.11.95/rawhide import went
15:04:24 * jgrulich is present
15:04:29 <rdieter> hi
15:04:31 <rdieter> #info jgrulich
15:04:31 <mbriza> hello
15:04:36 <rdieter> #info jgrulich mbriza present
15:04:41 <rdieter> #chair jgrulich mbriza
15:04:41 <zodbot> Current chairs: jgrulich lupinix mbriza rdieter than tosky
15:05:20 <rdieter> #agenda
15:05:24 <rdieter> ok, what to discuss today?
15:05:40 * rdieter wanted to hear about plasma-5.11.95 import status
15:06:17 <jgrulich> we can discuss the wayland proposal
15:06:37 <rdieter> ok, since those 2 things go hand-in-hand a bit
15:06:44 <jgrulich> and I can also give update about plasma 5.11.95
15:07:18 <rdieter> anything else ?
15:07:26 <lupinix> nothing else here
15:07:56 <tosky> just a note about Frameworks 5.42: kwidgetaddons was respun (5.42.1)
15:08:53 <rdieter> ok, I get include a report on recent updates, including ^^
15:09:01 <rdieter> I can include ... that is
15:09:09 <rdieter> may as well start with that
15:09:13 <rdieter> #start recent updates
15:09:42 <rdieter> so, kf5-5.42 (with kwidgetsaddons-5.42.1) is in updates-testing for f27/f26
15:10:01 <rdieter> along with plasma-5.11.5, waiting for 5.42 to go stable first or at least at the same time as plasma-5.11.5
15:10:03 <pino|work> o/
15:10:20 * rdieter checks bodhi
15:10:28 <rdieter> #info pino|work present
15:10:30 <rdieter> hi
15:10:32 <rdieter> #chair pino|work
15:10:32 <zodbot> Current chairs: jgrulich lupinix mbriza pino|work rdieter than tosky
15:10:59 <rdieter> ah, in addition, there's kde pim 17.12.1 in -testing too
15:11:44 <tosky> uhm, with a negative feedback from #fedora-kde; but let's see
15:11:46 <rdieter> that's all I have
15:12:03 <rdieter> tosky: yeah, one, I saw that
15:12:11 <lupinix> tosky: negative feedback?
15:12:34 <rdieter> mostly a rantish comment like "akonadi is <bad bad bad>, I'm done "
15:12:54 <jgrulich> typical :)
15:13:03 <lupinix> for me all these updates work fine, including kmail/kontact which i'm using in production on some machines
15:13:05 <rdieter> probably worth followup, to see if there's any useful information/debug we can get about it
15:13:09 <Kevin_Kofler> "akonadi is crashing badly clogging disc i/o and causing load to skyrocket" is an actual bug report.
15:13:21 <lupinix> only had that gmail smtp issue some weeks ago
15:13:23 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: bug #?
15:13:33 <tosky> it's not a bug report; it's a problem report, which may or not related to the update itself
15:13:33 <Kevin_Kofler> Ask XenoPL, he posted that.
15:13:34 <rdieter> backtrace?
15:13:45 <rdieter> so ... not an actual bug report.. yet
15:14:02 <rdieter> we need details to be able to act on it
15:14:04 <tosky> it's not clear if it is a temporary problem (post-update, some internal upgrade, maybe due to other packages updated)
15:14:31 <tosky> that's it, let's see other users
15:15:01 <rdieter> #topic recent updates
15:15:12 <rdieter> ^^ oops, made mistake changing that , fixed
15:15:13 <tosky> rdieter: same topic?
15:15:16 <tosky> :)
15:15:31 <rdieter> I said #start before
15:15:41 * rdieter needs moar coffee
15:15:44 <jgrulich> I have update about Plasma 5.11.95
15:15:58 <rdieter> jgrulich: ok, go
15:16:42 <jgrulich> I started yesterday in the evening and finished it in the morning today, all should be done, I had to also update PackageKit-Qt to 1.0.0 as latest discover adds support for offline updates and there was missing API in older PK-Qt versions
15:17:00 <rdieter> yay!
15:17:12 <jgrulich> I also have been using it for a while, I had nightly snapshots and it works perfectly
15:17:31 <rdieter> not sure other PK-Qt consumers can use that version yet, but we can cross that bridge later
15:17:43 <rdieter> (apper in particular, but we've been threatening to retire it)
15:18:00 <jgrulich> rdieter: dantti started working on apper again so there will be definitely patches to backport
15:18:25 <rdieter> we chatted, unfortunately, he's not seeing the crash we are on startup :(
15:18:39 <rdieter> though he said probable workaround was simply removing kcm support
15:18:46 <rdieter> (where the crash is happening)
15:19:03 <jgrulich> yeah and he started moving it to a standalone application
15:19:46 <jgrulich> next apper won't be a KCM anymore
15:19:47 <rdieter> offline updates sounds nice... though I'm guessing if we want that, we'd have to use discover's update notifier
15:20:09 <jgrulich> rdieter: yes and discover already has that implemented
15:20:28 <rdieter> looking forward to testing that
15:20:29 <jgrulich> should be in Plasma 5.12
15:20:43 <rdieter> jgrulich: so is 5.11.95 rawhide builds all done?
15:20:50 <jgrulich> rdieter: yes, all done
15:21:00 <rdieter> excellent, now, need copr builds
15:21:06 <jgrulich> rdieter: btw. do we have plasma-vault package or on review at least?
15:21:06 <rdieter> s/need/want badly/ :)
15:21:35 <rdieter> I don't think so, checking...
15:21:56 <rdieter> I don't see it on kde-reviews tracker
15:22:17 <jgrulich> rdieter: ok, then this one is missing, I'll try to package it and post it for review
15:23:28 <rdieter> should we (re)use https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/g/kdesig/plasma-5-unstable/ ?
15:24:04 <jgrulich> rdieter: sure
15:24:19 <rdieter> though maybe see if mkyral has intentions to track this
15:24:30 <rdieter> he's done good past copr work
15:25:16 <rdieter> (no need to duplicate work)
15:25:39 <rdieter> anything else about recent updates?
15:26:20 <jgrulich> nothing from me
15:26:44 <rdieter> oh, was going to mention that seems some users requested that we make flatpak support in discover optional, so I'm going to look into that
15:27:05 <lupinix> yes having that optional would be nice
15:27:09 <rdieter> ie, split into a subpkg pulled via Recommends:
15:27:43 <rdieter> I said I'd implement it if I saw # of requests more than I can count on one hand... that makes 3
15:27:48 <rdieter> :)
15:27:49 <jgrulich> I would still prefer to have it installed by default
15:27:58 <rdieter> jgrulich: oh definitely, that's not the issue
15:28:26 <lupinix> as long as i can remove it without uninstalling half of the desktop i'm fine with default
15:28:30 <jgrulich> ok, I don't see reason why someone would want that backend removed, but it's not a problem to remove it
15:28:32 <rdieter> some folks seem to dislike flatpak so much they don't want it installed *at all*
15:28:50 <rdieter> jgrulich:  I don't either, <shrug>
15:29:21 <jgrulich> I mean, if you don't use, then you even don't know you have it installed there so I don't see any sense in removing it
15:29:39 <mbriza> it's BLOAT, isn't it?
15:29:44 <rdieter> <nod>
15:29:47 <mbriza> a lot of people would tell you
15:29:51 <mbriza> i don't care personally
15:30:00 <tosky> just to know if it's installed, can it be disabled from the UI? (same question for any other backend)
15:30:01 <mbriza> i think it's more convenient to have it there than not
15:30:03 <Kevin_Kofler> If it comes in with Recommends, then it will be readded at every update if the user doesn't exclude it manually.
15:30:06 <Kevin_Kofler> I think this is a no go.
15:30:12 <rdieter> same demographic that don't want PackageKit or pulseaudio
15:30:25 <Kevin_Kofler> The subpackage should instead have boolean Supplements: (plasma-discover and flatpak).
15:30:35 <Kevin_Kofler> So IF you have flatpak installed, you'll also get Discover support for it.
15:30:41 <jgrulich> tosky: it cannot be disabled from the UI
15:30:42 <Kevin_Kofler> And the spin can just add flatpak.
15:30:53 <rdieter> then upgraders won't get it either
15:30:56 <lupinix> Kevin_Kofler: +1 sounds good to me
15:30:56 <Kevin_Kofler> (if you really want to have it by default – IMHO, it's not a good idea)
15:31:03 <tosky> jgrulich: ah, I thought it was like a repository that can be disabled
15:31:16 <Kevin_Kofler> Upgraders already have flatpak installed because Discover has been dragging it in for a while.
15:31:33 <jgrulich> tosky: flatpak repositories can be disabled, I thought you mean the whole backend
15:31:35 <Kevin_Kofler> (unless they removed both flatpak and plasma-discover as I did, of course :-) )
15:31:36 <rdieter> ok, maybe.  that's a bit ugly, I'll go with Recommends: for now, we can consider improvements later
15:32:08 <Kevin_Kofler> I think the Recommends is really unhelpful.
15:32:11 <tosky> jgrulich: I was unclear, sorry; my point is that, if it's installed and you don't change  the configuration, would you have any flatpack repository enabled?
15:32:18 <rdieter> or not, will have to think on it
15:32:18 <tosky> if not, well, it's like not having it
15:32:19 <Kevin_Kofler> Same situation as for dnfdragora-updater, where we got it removed.
15:32:31 <jgrulich> tosky: nope, by default there is no repository
15:32:42 <jgrulich> tosky: but discover provides easy way to add flathub
15:32:54 <Kevin_Kofler> (by the way, after having tried it, I think we made the right decision to not include dnfdragora-updater on the spin by default, see #fedora-kde)
15:32:54 <jgrulich> tosky: still it requires some action
15:33:05 <tosky> jgrulich: so... not really a problem if it's enabled by default
15:33:10 <rdieter> I think we should also improve flatpak support by including some repo by default
15:33:10 <jgrulich> tosky: not at all
15:33:32 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: What's wrong with "Supplements: (plasma-discover and flatpak)"?
15:33:35 <tosky> enabled by default == no flatpak application shown == transparent for people not using flatpak
15:33:42 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: I said I'll think on it
15:33:55 <jgrulich> rdieter: discover already has a button or action to add flathub repository
15:34:13 <Kevin_Kofler> "latest discover adds support for offline updates" → Ewww!!! :-(
15:34:22 <rdieter> curious, does gnome-software come preconfigured, or does that need action too?
15:35:08 <rdieter> jgrulich: ok, I recall I ended up having to run some flatpak, command line to add that
15:35:37 <lupinix> Kevin_Kofler: having support is fine as some people prefer it, but one should have the choice wheter he uses offline updates or not
15:35:39 <rdieter> so, more testing, I suppose a simple button will suffice
15:35:40 <mbriza> it's getting easier over time - now even if you download an app from flathub.org, it adds the repo for you
15:36:10 <lupinix> for example upgrading packages like texlive (whole collection) as an offline update is a mess…
15:36:17 <jgrulich> rdieter: there should be now a button in settings saying "Add flathub repository" or something like that
15:36:30 <rdieter> jgrulich: ok, that's good enough for me
15:36:41 <Kevin_Kofler> And FYI, I have both PulseAudio and PackageKit and I'm not complaining about those (well, PackageKit has been getting on my nerves since they broke group browsing in Apper, but I still have it), but I don't want Flatpak.
15:36:44 <Kevin_Kofler> It's just huge.
15:37:05 <Kevin_Kofler> And if you happen to have GTK+ installed, boolean reverse soft deps will drag in the whole GNOME runtime.
15:37:05 <mbriza> how much is it? the packages on my system are ~5MB
15:37:38 <lupinix> aren't reverse soft deps discouraged in such cases?
15:38:08 <rdieter> xdg-desktop-portal-gtk ?
15:38:12 <rdieter> that ^^
15:39:42 <Kevin_Kofler> Hmmm, IIRC they actually dragged in the whole runtime at some point, but it looks like it's no longer in an RPM, they must be fetching that through Flatpak itself now.
15:40:10 <Kevin_Kofler> Or maybe I just remember wrong and it was always only the portal.
15:40:16 <mbriza> dunno about the past but now you have to actually install a flatpak first
15:40:36 <Kevin_Kofler> By the way, isn't there a KDE portal? Where is the package for it?
15:41:16 <mbriza> xdg-desktop-portal-kde
15:41:30 <Kevin_Kofler> Ah, it's there, is it dragged in by deps like -gtk is? Let me check.
15:41:33 <jgrulich> there is, but xdg-desktop-portal-gtk is used as fallback of x-d-p-kde doesn't provide all portals
15:41:38 <Kevin_Kofler> Things changed since I last checked and I was misremembering.
15:41:55 <mbriza> anyway, this is not related to the meeting
15:41:55 <Kevin_Kofler> jgrulich: Ah, so Flatpak implicitly relies on GTK+. Sigh…
15:42:14 <rdieter> ok, let's move on to next topic...
15:42:18 <rdieter> #topic wayland
15:42:27 <rdieter> jgrulich: go ahead
15:42:34 <Kevin_Kofler> FYI, this drags in -gtk if gtk3 is installed: https://src.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/xdg-desktop-portal-gtk.git/tree/xdg-desktop-portal-gtk.spec#n19
15:42:39 <jgrulich> ok
15:43:20 <Kevin_Kofler> (-kde doesn't have any of that. But let's move on.)
15:43:24 <jgrulich> so I wrote the proposal here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDEWaylandByDefault, but the more I'm using wayland and the more I read other devs opinions I'm starting to think that pushing it to be default is not a wise decision
15:43:57 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO, Wayland is not anywhere near ready.
15:43:57 <jgrulich> instead I would propose we do as much we can to allow people use it, which means having it next to X11 session on livecd
15:44:17 <rdieter> jgrulich: ok, sounds reasonable, that was going to be our fallback plan anyway
15:44:30 <tosky> I think that was kind of agreed last time already (provide the session so that it's one click away)
15:44:50 <jgrulich> it's way better now and I'm using it for a week now, but there are annoying issues and some support missing so I would rather delay it for now
15:45:20 <rdieter> so it's just a matter of adding 'plasma-workspace-wayland' to comps
15:46:01 * lupinix tested multi screen setup and is not really satisfied, but has to recheck with 5.12
15:46:08 <lupinix> 5.11 so far
15:46:24 <jgrulich> rdieter: should be, but we should also add stuff like detection whether it will work at all, basically what GDM does and fallback to X11 if it cannot use wayland and so on
15:46:31 <lupinix> with one screen on my laptop it's fine so far
15:47:00 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO, https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373907 is a showstopper.
15:47:02 <rdieter> jgrulich: good plan
15:47:30 <mbriza> yeah, regarding the detection, i'm sorry - i couldn't get to it, i got a flu or something so i spent past few days in bed
15:47:34 <Kevin_Kofler> And remote app forwarding is also still an open issue.
15:47:51 <mbriza> Kevin_Kofler: if you need remote app forwarding, you can just switch to X
15:47:58 <mbriza> it's not like we're getting rid of X
15:48:16 <Kevin_Kofler> And the middle-click paste (the bug/RFE I linked to)?
15:48:19 <rdieter> we've already agreed to not use wayland by default, so I'm not sure the point of highlighting missing features now
15:48:21 <Kevin_Kofler> And that's not even counting the bugs and glitches that people are reporting.
15:49:34 <rdieter> mbriza: would you like a bug open to track the detection feature ?
15:49:47 <rdieter> (where best to put that?  upstream @ sddm?)
15:49:48 <jgrulich> so I agree with no wayland by default, with adding it as second session option on a livecd and would like others to give it a try, report bugs and attempt to backport wayland related fixes if you find some
15:50:12 <jgrulich> I already backported a qtwayland fix which solved all my plasma crashes
15:50:44 <mbriza> rdieter: yeah that could work
15:51:18 <rdieter> ok, I'll work on making that happen
15:51:33 <rdieter> jgrulich: you're using rawhide or qt-5.10 ?
15:51:53 <jgrulich> rdieter: I'm using F27 with my custom builds of Qt 5.10 and Plasma 5.11.95
15:51:58 <rdieter> gotcha
15:52:25 <jgrulich> with Qt it's a bit tricky as you have to do all the rebuilds, but building own plasma is easy
15:54:07 <rdieter> <nod>
15:56:05 <rdieter> #topic open discussion
15:56:11 <rdieter> anything else for today before i close the meeting?
15:56:21 <lupinix> nothing else here
15:56:34 <Southern_Gentlem> I need help with testing the respins see the topic in #fedora-respins
15:56:56 <rdieter> Southern_Gentlem: thanks
15:57:06 <Kevin_Kofler> I have been working on QtWebEngine 5.10.0 updates.
15:57:19 <lupinix> Southern_Gentlem: testing in which sense? just try out?
15:57:36 <Kevin_Kofler> They are now in updates-testing for F27 and F26, but there is some trouble with building the -freeworld packages at RPM Fusion.
15:57:44 * lupinix has to install f27 on a new machine this week, so he could use the new respin for that
15:57:52 <Southern_Gentlem> lupinix,  yes that the lives work as expected and if you want to install into a vm that works
15:57:54 <jgrulich> talking about qtwebengine, what bothers me most is that it doesn't work on wayland, I have to use kmail with xcb platform
15:58:10 <rdieter> jgrulich: eww :(
15:58:19 <Kevin_Kofler> The Rawhide and F26 builds are through now, but F27 is still pending. Builds keep hanging up on ARM. Though you can download the x86_64 packages manually from RPM Fusion Koji if you want them.
15:58:30 <jgrulich> it's of course problem of qtwebengine, not Kevin's fault
15:58:48 <Kevin_Kofler> It's supposed to work on Wayland, there was a QTBUG about it that is supposedly fixed.
15:58:55 <Kevin_Kofler> But if it doesn't work, I can't do anything about that.
15:59:03 <Kevin_Kofler> Please talk to upstream.
15:59:11 <Kevin_Kofler> And try 5.10 if you haven't yet.
15:59:31 <jgrulich> I'm on 5.10, but I haven't seen that qtbug fixed
15:59:36 <Kevin_Kofler> 5.10.0 includes the Nouveau workaround, by the way. No more patched Mesa needed, instead, you get unaccelerated rendering on Nouveau. :-(
16:00:16 <Kevin_Kofler> 5.10.0 has no security fixes that weren't already in 5.9.3. The next round will be included in 5.9.4 and 5.10.1 and contain a Spectre mitigation among other fixes.
16:00:46 <Kevin_Kofler> I'll be submitting 5.10.1 when it comes out, right now I'm trying to get 5.10.0 through.
16:01:00 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: thanks for the update
16:01:43 <lupinix> Kevin_Kofler: btw i'm wondering whether we should disable arm for freeworld?
16:01:59 <rdieter> its' tempting
16:03:02 <lupinix> these build times are annoying as main package and freeworld are out of sync for some days then
16:04:03 <rdieter> anyway, we're about out of time so I'll end things here... thanks everone!
16:04:07 <rdieter> #endmeeting