14:00:06 <bexelbie> #startmeeting fedora-docs 14:00:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Oct 30 14:00:06 2017 UTC. The chair is bexelbie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 14:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-docs' 14:00:22 <bexelbie> #topic roll call 14:00:24 <bexelbie> .hello bex 14:00:25 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com> 14:02:17 * rkratky has a conflicting mtg but will lurk around 14:02:21 <x3mboy> .hello x3mboy 14:02:22 <zodbot> x3mboy: x3mboy 'Eduard Lucena' <eduardlucena@gmail.com> 14:03:05 <bexelbie> o/ rkratky x3mboy 14:03:23 <bexelbie> While we give people a few minutes, any agenda items? 14:03:25 <bexelbie> I have a few 14:03:33 <bexelbie> discuss docs.stg.fp.o as it looks now 14:03:41 <bexelbie> talk about stg -> prod automatic idea 14:03:47 <bexelbie> release notes retrospective 14:03:54 <bexelbie> docs CI 14:04:11 * jhradilek waves. 14:04:18 <bexelbie> o/ jhradilek 14:04:30 <x3mboy> o/ jhradilek 14:04:38 <x3mboy> bexelbie, nothing specific from my side 14:05:15 <bexelbie> I feel like we don't have quorum, but I am worried that we actually do 14:05:19 <bexelbie> therefore let's press forward 14:05:36 <bexelbie> #topic docs.stg.fp.o publish what is there now 14:06:35 <bexelbie> please looks at docs.stage.fedoraproject.org 14:06:53 <bexelbie> it represents the latest built source with changes suggested by rkratky and mattdm for formatting the site 14:07:03 <bexelbie> does anyone feel like pushing this to prod is a bad idea? 14:07:10 <jhradilek> "Firefox can’t find the server at docs.stage.fedoraproject.org." 14:07:32 <bexelbie> sorry 14:07:32 <mattdm> .stg. 14:07:36 <bexelbie> docs.stg.fedoraproject.org 14:07:38 <mattdm> +1 ship it :) 14:07:43 <bexelbie> I got all expansion happy 14:07:50 <jhradilek> Ah, that works. Thanks, looking. 14:08:44 <jhradilek> Looks good to me. 14:08:45 <pbokoc> looks good to me 14:08:47 <pbokoc> hehe 14:08:59 <jhradilek> pbokoc: Reading my mind again? :) 14:09:20 <bexelbie> x3mboy, rkratky ? 14:09:30 <bexelbie> I am going with "consensus" here but I want to give you all a moment 14:09:31 <rkratky> +1 to ship 14:09:34 <x3mboy> Looks perfect 14:09:35 <x3mboy> +1 14:09:36 <bexelbie> especially as rkratky is double-meeting 14:09:46 <bexelbie> #action bex to "ship it" and push stg to prod 14:09:53 <bexelbie> #topic Auto publishing to prod 14:09:56 <bexelbie> #info https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/QIXWG4TADGWTHS2JLYY5W5VV4MGON7PM/ 14:10:20 <bexelbie> It has been proposed that we automatically push new changes to prod as there is a 60 minute update window (fixed in time) everytime we push to stg 14:10:36 <bexelbie> stg becomes our "quick final look" and we can always fix something that hits prod within 60 min 14:10:44 <bexelbie> this will speed contributors seeing their contributions live 14:10:50 <bexelbie> no one has objected in email, but discussion has been light 14:10:57 <bexelbie> any further comments before I, "make it so" 14:11:02 <bexelbie> ? 14:11:16 <x3mboy> As I comment before, I'm +1 to this 14:11:25 <randomuser> hey, sorry i'm late 14:11:25 <randomuser> bexelbie, please do - I understood automated publishing to be a goal of ours for a few years now 14:11:30 <x3mboy> It's a great idea to push that quick 14:11:34 <bexelbie> o/ randomuser 14:11:47 <bexelbie> any comments from others? 14:12:08 <jhradilek> No objections here, I agree with what randomuser said. 14:12:43 <bexelbie> ok, moving forward with consensus 14:12:44 <pbokoc> I'd prefer automatic staging but requiring manual action to publish to prod. Something simple, hit a button in an admin interface somewhere. Someone would have to build that interface and figure out permissions, though 14:12:51 <bexelbie> waiting 14:13:02 <bexelbie> pbokoc, is this a blocker for you? or just a "0" 14:13:09 <pbokoc> bexelbie, not a blocker 14:13:14 <bexelbie> as in you're willing to not block and may even be ok if we find no problems 14:13:16 <bexelbie> ok 14:13:18 <bexelbie> undrestand 14:13:25 <bexelbie> then with one "0" moving forward 14:13:44 <bexelbie> #action bex to begin pushing to prod when he stages new work manually - he is to also inform CI that we want this when it happens 14:13:48 <bexelbie> which leads too ... 14:13:54 <bexelbie> #topic Docs CI 14:13:59 <bexelbie> I have an update here 14:14:41 <bexelbie> I have a meeting tomorrow with another (world famous and totally awesome) Brian, bstinson. We will be talking about how to enable fedmsg triggers for docs repos into the CentOS CI build system. We will also be talking about how to store hte GPG key for push authority 14:14:49 <bexelbie> this should get us 10-20% of the way to docs CI 14:15:09 <randomuser> good news! 14:15:14 <bexelbie> I also have likely access to Nigel Babu who has done similar work for Gluster so my hope is to have a rudimentary build job in place RSN 14:15:37 <bexelbie> The execution code will remain in our repos so we can collaborate on it and make it much better 14:15:49 <bexelbie> but I'd like to get the 0.1 release out ASAP 14:16:10 <bexelbie> does anyone want to work on this at this stage? does anyone want to take this task over? 14:16:52 <randomuser> you have the contacts and meetings, bexelbie, might be best for you to run with it for now 14:17:12 <bexelbie> I figured that ... I was hoping people would be excited to help make the script less ... bexy :P 14:17:21 <bexelbie> but let's get the first version out 14:17:27 <bexelbie> so this was mostly for info - unless there are questions 14:17:47 <bexelbie> ok, moving on 14:17:52 <bexelbie> we have some open administrative issues 14:17:58 <bexelbie> #topic Mindshare Representative 14:18:06 <bexelbie> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/C7TTBKRNCJ3W5UCGYPQA6V5JCXXMDJKS/ 14:18:27 <bexelbie> Docs is part of the Mindshare work being done to increase communication amongst user facing groups 14:18:35 <bexelbie> We get an appointed representative to the committee 14:18:41 <bexelbie> there are also two at large seats that are elected 14:18:55 <bexelbie> I am a named member of the committee because I also serve as FCAIC 14:19:06 <bexelbie> It'd be great if we could find someone who has the bandwidth to participate in our group 14:19:12 <randomuser> oh wow, I completely missed this Mindshare Committee 14:19:14 <bexelbie> if we don't I will advocate on behalf of docs as much as I can 14:19:30 <bexelbie> Mindshare is what FOSCo became when it couldn't become... 14:19:44 <x3mboy> How much time we can wait for this? 14:19:50 <bexelbie> robyduck, is trying to bring conversation and unity of action (but not dictated action) to our groups 14:20:03 <bexelbie> We need to have a rep selected by the time the next election cycle FINISHES 14:20:13 <x3mboy> I want to wait until mktg discussion before deciding any team to represent 14:20:21 <x3mboy> But I'd love to be part of it 14:20:47 <randomuser> i think it's interesting, but I've been trying to spend my docs cycles working towards actually writing docs and I don't think I have enough time for both 14:20:48 <bexelbie> the only other deadline is this 14:21:12 <bexelbie> if we are not going to send a rep, we need to let robyduck know as it may affect the number of elected seats (those range from 2-3 to keep hte group odd-numbered) 14:21:50 <randomuser> can we voluntell pbokoc to do it? 14:22:00 <bexelbie> I am not hearing anyone step up immediately, let's keep this open, but I suggest we let robyduck know something by November 5 so he can let jkurik know about elections 14:22:03 * bexelbie looks to pbokoc 14:22:28 <pbokoc> absolutely not 14:22:39 <pbokoc> fight me :) 14:22:45 <randomuser> heh 14:22:54 <bexelbie> on that note .. I think we can move on :) 14:23:01 <bexelbie> #topic F27 release process 14:23:04 <bexelbie> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/WRYEGC26DV75CLENOCJO6C7KZIIXZAHJ/ 14:23:15 <bexelbie> I've started an issue https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/38 14:23:16 <bexelbie> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/38 14:23:43 <bexelbie> to try to build up our release process. We winged it with F26 and I think with F27 we should try to get it better documented with the new system 14:23:50 <bexelbie> and any packages that need to be built, etc 14:23:57 <bexelbie> I am open to other ideas for fixing this up 14:24:04 <randomuser> i will take that issue, bexelbie 14:24:08 <bexelbie> +1 14:24:21 <randomuser> and also build a release notes package, if that still needs doing 14:24:22 <bexelbie> I would like to see this documented in pagure in our build repo, if we are cool with that 14:24:22 <x3mboy> +1 14:24:28 <x3mboy> .thanks randomuser 14:24:32 <x3mboy> .thank randomuser 14:24:32 <zodbot> x3mboy thinks randomuser is awesome and is happy they are helping! (Please don't forget to randomuser++ also) 14:24:36 <bexelbie> ultimately I think we should put it in a published repo with our "how to contribute" docs 14:24:49 <randomuser> agreed 14:25:05 <bexelbie> #action randomuser to help rebuild hte F27 release process https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/38 14:25:11 <bexelbie> let me know how I can help you with information 14:25:14 <bexelbie> on what I know 14:25:30 <bexelbie> #topic Release Notes Retrospective 14:25:47 <bexelbie> For two releases now we have created issues in pagure and tagged Change contributors to try to build release notes 14:26:03 <bexelbie> I think we should have a retrospective meeting of release notes writers to find out what works and doesn't in this process 14:26:06 <bexelbie> wdyt? 14:26:31 <pbokoc> we could really use a way to automate creating those issues 14:26:34 <x3mboy> I think a meeting will be good 14:26:35 <randomuser> i think the process could benefit from evaluation, definitely 14:26:50 <pbokoc> oh, sorry, I thought you meant to do the retrospective now :) 14:26:54 <bexelbie> Does someone want to take ownership of scheduling the meeting and/or soliciting feedback? 14:27:05 <bexelbie> I wasn't going to suggest doing the retro now :) 14:27:10 <randomuser> automating issues, or generally helping the release wrangler create changes in an automated way that includes docs pagure issues, would be good 14:27:40 <bexelbie> exactly, I've mentioned what randomuser said to jkurik and it isn't necessarily out of scope 14:27:44 <randomuser> I'd also like to get more developer involvement, it feels like we finish with the release notes just in time to start on them for the next release 14:28:42 <bexelbie> randomuser, is this something you have time to own? 14:28:48 <pbokoc> that was just this one release since it follows the previous one much closer than usual 14:28:51 <randomuser> hrmm... yeah, I can start this process 14:29:04 <bexelbie> #action randomuser to schedule/figure out a release notes retrospective 14:29:26 <bexelbie> I have no other direct topics 14:29:27 <pbokoc> also, do we need to have a meeting? I feel like these things can just as well be done over mail, or in an etherpad, without requiring a bunch of people to be present at the same time. That way you don't have to bother with timezones 14:29:41 <bexelbie> +1 to not requiring a meeting 14:29:55 <bexelbie> but I think we have to actively solicit feedback if there isn't a meeting 14:30:00 <randomuser> pbokoc, we (like you and I and others here) might arrange a time for an IRC gripe session and take action items from it 14:30:00 <bexelbie> otherwise people forget 14:30:20 <pbokoc> true 14:30:51 <bexelbie> ok to move forward? 14:30:58 <bexelbie> well, it's just 14:31:00 <bexelbie> #topic open floor 14:31:23 <bexelbie> It'd be cool if some of hte ideas in https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/NERSM4D7LTRGJ4NDOXS4DBBPFU6P5OPI/ got rounded up (the next button discussion) and made into pagure issues 14:31:24 <bexelbie> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/docs@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/NERSM4D7LTRGJ4NDOXS4DBBPFU6P5OPI/ 14:31:28 <bexelbie> any other open floor? 14:31:35 <bexelbie> or discussion continuation? 14:32:35 <randomuser> Petr said everything I would in the next button thread 14:33:04 <bexelbie> Should we put together a hackfest/fad to actually try to bang out tools like that? 14:33:09 <bexelbie> or to improve our publishing 14:33:17 <bexelbie> the council would be amenable, I believe 14:33:38 <x3mboy> ! 14:33:45 <bexelbie> x3mboy, go for it 14:33:57 <randomuser> IMO if the council has money they want to spend on feature development, give it to devs 14:34:12 <bexelbie> randomuser, what do you mean? 14:34:32 <randomuser> technical writers are not inherently qualified developers because they are in a room together, it feels like we've tried that 14:34:41 <bexelbie> randomuser, ahh 14:34:43 <x3mboy> Sorry, I was looking the stg and the subprojects part is empty, Can I push this documentation to stg or should I wait until it gets into prod? 14:34:56 <bexelbie> I was wondering if we could get some devs there to take feature needs and turn them into code 14:34:58 <bexelbie> not just wour writers 14:35:29 <shaunm> you can throw some tooling problems at me 14:35:33 <bexelbie> x3mboy, once your PR to the repo is accepted, I can rebuild it 14:35:50 <pbokoc> yeah, I'm not a huge fan of FADs and hackfests as in "sitting down and trying to bang out something", it's not how I work. It might be helpful for others but I prefer to work at my own pace (and also with multiple displays :) 14:36:35 <x3mboy> bexelbie, ok 14:36:36 <bexelbie> sounds like, in general then, we don't want to meet to do this work, but are people willing ot define it well enough that people like shaunm (or an asciibinder hackfest that might happen) could implement? 14:36:39 <randomuser> i think they are useful for planning and requirements gathering and such 14:37:17 <randomuser> but yeah, should be just as feasible without the expense 14:38:19 <bexelbie> the one thing that a hackfest/fad can do is force time on people's calendars 14:38:30 <bexelbie> in a sense the money buys time which gets us hte output 14:38:37 * randomuser nods 14:39:20 <randomuser> presuming the people involved have the relevant skillset. 14:39:37 <bexelbie> that is a key - I thikn we can identify who can come and offer the needs brainstorming 14:39:54 <randomuser> there are lots of NTH features but a FAD won't make me a ruby developer 14:40:05 <bexelbie> and I am hoping we can get the devs who can short-commit to implementation or people like shaunm who can long-commit 14:40:19 <randomuser> Personally, i want to focus on content for a bit 14:40:24 <bexelbie> agreed, but I am not sure we have the NTH in a state that an interested ruby dev could implement 14:40:33 <bexelbie> I am a huge +1 to content focus 14:40:38 <randomuser> we can't have everyone hacking on platform tools to keep republishing unmaintained docs 14:41:51 * bexelbie will brb 14:42:29 <randomuser> no objections to anyone that wants to work on tools, but i'll be spending my time on mostly content 14:42:54 <randomuser> for example, I heard Fedora has a 'cloud' version now, maybe we could document that 14:43:02 * bexelbie is back 14:43:40 <bexelbie> on a content note, I'd like us to think about splitting installation guidance into separate content for each edition instead of trying to do it all in one document 14:43:54 <bexelbie> and yes, that means we need reuse 14:43:56 <bexelbie> :) 14:45:28 <x3mboy> I think the idea of atomic docs, like we talk at FAD Latam it's still the best approach we should get, and that include installation 14:46:05 <x3mboy> For e.g. a doc with partioning with blivet-gui 14:46:38 <randomuser> let's start filing issues on pagure for topics that should be broken out 14:49:21 <bexelbie> +1 14:49:34 <bexelbie> BTW - we should also try to mark some easyfix if we can 14:49:41 <bexelbie> to get some level of visibility, imho 14:50:43 <bexelbie> other conversatoin for today, or shall I close 14:50:53 <bexelbie> #chair randomuser x3mboy jhradilek pbokoc rkratky shaunm 14:50:53 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie jhradilek pbokoc randomuser rkratky shaunm x3mboy 14:50:56 <bexelbie> did I miss anyone? 14:51:00 * bexelbie fell behind on that 14:51:37 <x3mboy> EOF for me 14:52:05 <randomuser> i'm good, thanks for running the meeting, bexelbie 14:52:18 <pbokoc> +1 14:53:34 <bexelbie> thank you all 14:53:37 <bexelbie> closing in 5 14:53:56 <bexelbie> 4 14:54:01 <bexelbie> pi 14:54:09 <bexelbie> e 14:54:16 <bexelbie> 1 14:54:21 <bexelbie> 0 14:54:25 <bexelbie> i 14:54:27 <bexelbie> #endmeeting