13:02:34 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2017-09-27)
13:02:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 27 13:02:34 2017 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:02:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:02:34 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2017-09-27)'
13:02:35 <mattdm> #meetingname council
13:02:35 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
13:02:37 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb langdon robyduck bexelbie jwf stefw
13:02:37 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie jkurik jwb jwf langdon mattdm robyduck stefw
13:02:39 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
13:02:43 <bexelbie> .hello bex
13:02:44 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
13:02:46 <jwb> present
13:02:53 <mattdm> morning everyone!
13:03:01 <athos> hello :)
13:03:23 <jwf|matrix> .hello jflory7
13:03:23 <jkurik> .hello2
13:03:23 <zodbot> jwf|matrix: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jflory7@gmail.com>
13:03:26 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com>
13:03:30 <langdon> mattdm: i have to plead off today.. conflicting meeting i forgot to send a note about.. i can probably answer if pinged
13:03:46 <mattdm> langdon: Ok -- will ping if needed
13:04:08 <langdon> apologies
13:04:13 <mattdm> i know robyduck is around too because he just said something in another channel :)
13:04:16 <mattdm> #topic Today's Open Floor Agenda
13:04:17 * bexelbie will definitely not just randomly say langdon
13:04:36 <mattdm> This is the part where we collect agenda items.
13:04:48 <mattdm> Then I'll put them in order and we'll talk about each one
13:05:04 <mattdm> and I'll try to keep individual things from running too long
13:05:09 <mattdm> Suggestions I have are:
13:05:21 <mattdm> * bexelbie is going to be on vacation and afk for several weeks
13:05:51 <mattdm> * we did well with Flock fund raising, plus we seem to have scared people from spending any money. we should make sure to not squander what we have
13:05:59 <mattdm> * mindshare initiative proposal / mindshare fad
13:06:09 <mattdm> * the public money / public code request
13:06:20 <mattdm> * freenode live conference
13:06:38 <mattdm> Any other things?
13:06:49 <mattdm> Not all of the above are of equal importance or time :)
13:07:17 <bexelbie> not that I can think of
13:07:26 * bexelbie looks through ticket list
13:07:38 <jwf|matrix> Seems a solid list to me.
13:08:32 <mattdm> okay, let's do it. throw more stuff on at the end in the unlikely event we have remaining time :)
13:08:34 <bexelbie> +1 solid list
13:08:36 <mattdm> #topic Bex on Vacation
13:08:38 <jwb> there's a ticket on a Flock registration reimbursement that claims it was 69USD.  that seems ... wrong
13:08:54 <bexelbie> jwb, link please
13:09:07 <mattdm> #undo
13:09:07 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x208a8750>
13:09:15 <robyduck> .fas robyduck
13:09:16 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
13:09:16 <mattdm> #topic Flock Registration reimbursement request
13:09:58 <mattdm> I think this is due to the cost of living index used
13:10:17 <bexelbie> none went that high
13:10:27 <bexelbie> also, the only cancellations we got all didn't want refunds
13:10:43 <jwb> one sec
13:10:53 <jwf|matrix> I read that as co-pay
13:11:06 <jwb> https://pagure.io/fedora-budget/issue/44
13:11:08 <jkurik> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-budget/issue/44
13:11:19 <mattdm> jwb ah no wodner I couldn't find it
13:11:38 <bexelbie> I have let this person know that we need to finish flock finances before we can make a decision
13:11:49 <bexelbie> I was going to bring it to the council with the others when I got back
13:11:52 <mattdm> bexelbie: okay, so that goes to:
13:11:54 <bexelbie> we've been talking for several months about this
13:11:56 <mattdm> #topic Bex on Vacation
13:11:59 * bexelbie and this person
13:12:32 <jwb> i was more scratching my head on why it was such a high claim.  seemed wrong.  if it's covered already, great.
13:12:46 <mattdm> ok, so does this need action before you get back from vacation?
13:13:00 <bexelbie> mattdm, not as far as I know
13:13:13 <bexelbie> jwb, this person is asking for flock to refund them the copay they volunteered to make at the time of registration
13:13:27 <jwb> oh, i see
13:13:47 <bexelbie> When they registered they asked for funding for all but $100 - I am not sure why they are now listing $69
13:13:55 <mattdm> #info The co-pay refund ticket will wait for bexelbie to return
13:14:03 <bexelbie> but I've told them this wouldn't normally be possible and that I'd need to finish the books for flock and then ask the council
13:14:10 <bexelbie> They started asking before flock
13:14:19 <mattdm> #info mattdm is going to try to cover other money-related tasks until bexelbie gets back
13:14:32 <mattdm> bexelbie: are there other things you need coverage for while you are gone?
13:14:40 * bexelbie hopes not
13:14:45 * jkurik will not be on vacations, however he will be unavailable for Council meetings during October and November
13:14:50 <bexelbie> I'll have limited email access, but no laptop
13:15:06 <mattdm> ok. I'll try to avoid emailing you :)
13:15:43 <mattdm> #topic Fedora budget: spending the remaining FY18 money intelligently
13:15:54 <mattdm> So, we did well at fundraising for Flock
13:16:16 <mattdm> Plus, our talk about spending our money strategically seems to have resulted in people being scared to spend at all
13:16:42 <jwb> can you elaborate on "did well at fundraising for Flock"?
13:16:50 <mattdm> jwb: bexelbie can...
13:17:55 <mattdm> #info mattdm would like to see 1) FADs working on advancing our current objectives 2) Marketing events specifically aimed at the target audiences for Workstation, Server, and Atomic Host
13:17:55 <bexelbie> we collected $15K in sponsorships that offset about $12K in costs
13:18:01 <bexelbie> costs we would have normally incurred
13:18:04 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: Has there been a slowdown of events organized by Ambassadors?
13:18:17 <bexelbie> $3K (it may be less) is a cost incurred because of the sponsored event
13:18:32 <bexelbie> jwf|matrix, yes
13:18:35 <bexelbie> imo
13:18:47 * jwf|matrix nods
13:19:10 <jwb> hm
13:19:10 <mattdm> jwf|matrix: seems to be, yeah -- although this is also partly related to ambassadors struggling with direction and organziation overall
13:19:13 <bexelbie> we also accepted GSoC money this year which has not been fully spent
13:19:18 <jwf|matrix> At least for NA, I'm worried it might actually not be a budget problem but participation problem
13:19:20 <jwf|matrix> Yeah.
13:19:30 <bexelbie> jwf|matrix, I believe that to be true for most regions
13:19:46 <jwb> so I don't disagree with 2, but given the state of flux around Server, and the assertion that nobody uses Server as Server, i have no idea what audience they'd aim an event at
13:19:47 <robyduck> yes, the same in EMEA
13:19:48 * mattdm needs to step away for a few minutes. brb. sorry.
13:20:22 <mattdm> jwb: at changing that assertion, I think
13:20:36 <mattdm> either by getting better information on problems the audience wants solved
13:20:42 <mattdm> generating more user interest
13:20:47 <mattdm> or generating greater involvement
13:21:27 <langdon> bexelbie: :P
13:21:29 <jwb> mattdm: maybe so, sure.  but we're barreling down a very specific path for Server in 27.  i think any event in the near term would need to be spreading awareness of that, and then getting data on if it helps any particular audience
13:21:40 <jwb> mattdm: which is... a hard event to hold
13:22:27 <jwf|matrix> robyduck: Just curious, since I think you've been to some of the EMEA ones before, what your opinion on Ambassador organizational FADs are.
13:22:57 <jwf|matrix> I don't know of any that have happened recently but I understand they used to be annually in EMEA
13:23:15 <robyduck> jwf|matrix: they made much more sense when budgeting was still a regional thing
13:23:17 * mattdm is back
13:23:35 <bexelbie> I would be +1 ambassador event strategy fads - if they resulted in events being planned
13:23:36 <jwf|matrix> robyduck: So they were mostly focused on budget and finances?
13:23:44 <bexelbie> The benefit of a FAD is it can force time into people's schedules
13:23:44 <robyduck> we hold them annually in the past and we decided which events to attend and how much money to spend on them, attendance, swags etc
13:23:49 <jwf|matrix> bexelbie: Yeah, this is the direction I was leaning
13:23:52 <mattdm> jwb Yeah, hard but not unique
13:24:11 <mattdm> We area already planning a small ambassador's presence at LISA https://www.usenix.org/conference/lisa17
13:24:21 <robyduck> yes, right. Each country prevented their events for the next year, the others had to be approved later
13:24:22 <robyduck> brb
13:24:24 <mattdm> which is October 29th. That would be a good NA event
13:24:36 <mattdm> and the Open Source Summit is roughly the same time in Prague
13:24:37 <jwf|matrix> robyduck: Hmm, but even if the budgeting process has changed, regions still have to do a lot of this work, no?
13:24:55 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: To hold a FAD at LISA, you mean?
13:25:18 <mattdm> jwf|matrix: I was thinking to do some Fedora Modular Server marketing
13:25:29 <jwf|matrix> Ahh, ahh, I see
13:25:53 <mattdm> sgallagh: ^ see this idea for later discussion :)
13:26:03 <mattdm> I'm definitely in favor of regional planning FADs
13:26:24 <sgallagh> mattdm: Which idea? LISA?
13:26:24 <mattdm> Not just for events, but "how is this region going to be successful"
13:26:47 <mattdm> sgallagh: yeah. not necessarily you being there, but figuring out how to have a marketing package for Modular Server for then
13:26:56 <sgallagh> hooboy
13:27:06 <mattdm> sgallagh: also same thing at OSS Prague
13:27:10 <sgallagh> That'll be ambitious for LISA
13:27:27 <sgallagh> Given our current schedule, we may or may not have a Beta available at that point
13:27:35 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: To your previous idea of wanting to see more FADs working on objectives, I think this would be something for us to incorporate into a reworked FAD template to guide organizers in the right direction.
13:27:48 <mattdm> jwf++
13:27:48 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for jflory7 changed to 23 (for the f26 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
13:28:03 <jwf|matrix> I can try to find more cycles in the next couple of weeks to work on that
13:28:12 <mattdm> jwf|matrix: that would be awesome and very helpful.
13:28:53 <mattdm> The other thing bexelbie and I were thinking about is doing a swag spend.
13:29:01 <mattdm> Getting stuff into the hands of contributors, specifically
13:29:20 <jwf|matrix> Okay, great. I'll try to have something around mid-October, tentatively, and then we can pick it apart and try to get a polished template to deliver
13:29:29 * bexelbie would also like to consider some event swag purchases to take advantage of scaled cost savings.  I don't believe any region but EMEA does that well now.
13:29:35 <mattdm> I have a Fedora coffee mug from some long-ago FUDCon that people are often jealous of :)
13:29:46 <bexelbie> they just want your coffee
13:29:52 <jwf|matrix> #action jwf Continue working on a revamped FAD organizational template for delivering around mid-October
13:29:58 <mattdm> it is good coffee. equal exchange fair trade :)
13:30:09 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: Could you expand a bit on that?
13:30:16 <Rhea> Every day I walk to work I see a Fedora coffee mug on a balcony of a random house. I have no idea who's behind it.
13:30:42 <mattdm> Rhea: and you haven't swiped it :)
13:30:53 <mattdm> jwf|matrix: expand on coffee? :)
13:31:07 <mattdm> A few years ago, Fedora made these "10 years of Fedora" shirts
13:31:24 <mattdm> and gave them to people identified as having been active in Fedora for... well, at least almost 10 years
13:31:38 <jwf|matrix> Ahhh, yeah, now I understand.
13:31:56 <mattdm> I think it would be nice for morale to send a little care package to the top N current contributors
13:32:00 <mattdm> however we define 'top N'
13:32:23 <mattdm> and maybe a smaller thing (bundle of stickers, etc.) to the several-thousand with some activity at all
13:32:26 <jwf|matrix> Yeah, I think it would be a morale booster.
13:32:46 <mattdm> plus then of course whatever add-on marketing effects of showing that stuff off
13:33:48 <mattdm> okay, any more on the $$$$ topic?
13:33:55 <jwf|matrix> I assume none of this would be a "surprise" gifts, regarding logistics of address collection
13:34:23 <jwf|matrix> Need to go AFK for a couple minutes, be right back
13:34:30 <mattdm> jwf|matrix: true. We'd have to ask.
13:34:57 <mattdm> I recently hit a high reputation score threshold on a Stack Exchange site, and they send me a nice mail saying they'd like my address to send me something
13:34:58 <bexelbie> yes, people would have the
13:35:01 <bexelbie> gift
13:35:11 <mattdm> I was not offended at all :)
13:35:26 <mattdm> the actual contents can be somewhat of a surprise
13:35:36 <mattdm> Live spiders! For everyone!
13:35:50 <mattdm> *cough*
13:35:55 <mattdm> #topic Mindshare Initiative
13:36:05 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/142
13:36:05 <bexelbie> Note: Please keep the penguin in a cool environment
13:36:13 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mindshare
13:36:29 <mattdm> have people gotten a chance to read and digest this?
13:36:42 <mattdm> I have to admit I only had time to skim it and not really think deeply
13:36:45 <mattdm> which I want to do :)
13:36:57 * bexelbie has skimmed as well
13:37:38 <jwb> i have not
13:38:00 <jkurik> I just skimmed it as well
13:38:21 <mattdm> okay, so, I guess this is homework for us all :)
13:38:30 <mattdm> robyduck: thanks for working on this
13:38:54 <mattdm> robyduck also filed a currently-private ticket to discuss a mindshare fad, which seems like part 2 of this homework :)
13:39:20 <mattdm> #action everyone: please read this and develop opinions and feedback for robyduck
13:39:40 <mattdm> #topic Public Money / Public Code
13:39:54 <mattdm> #link https://publiccode.eu/
13:40:17 <mattdm> also this message to the Council mailing list
13:40:20 <mattdm> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/5DLHFG4UUWP3E5L4FA5HUKCGDVYC5KXN/
13:40:44 <mattdm> basically this is an open letter to governments requesting that government-funded software be open source
13:41:08 <mattdm> I'm not sure this kind of thing is particularly *effective*
13:41:31 <mattdm> but at the same time, it's certainly in line with Fedora values and something I have no problem with us supporting
13:42:17 <jwf|matrix> I think it's an ethical match for Fedora. I can't say I've read it too heavily other than things I've seen mentioned in the last week or two.
13:42:58 * jwb shrugs
13:43:01 <mattdm> Anyone *opposed* to me emailing them at the address https://publiccode.eu/#organisations and having Fedora added to the list?
13:43:08 <jwb> i'm fine with it.  i think it will result in nothing
13:43:19 <jkurik> I am +1 to support
13:43:20 <mattdm> jwb: yeah
13:43:32 <jwf|matrix> I'm +1 to support as well
13:43:36 <mattdm> #action mattdm to contact public money public code to add fedora
13:43:49 <mattdm> #topic Freenode live
13:43:49 <athos> \o/
13:43:53 <jwb> and the open letter is generic enough that i'm fine with support it too.  e.g. it doesn't prescribe a specific license, etc
13:43:59 <mattdm> #undo
13:43:59 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x2089d750>
13:44:22 <mattdm> +1 on general terms of statement being easy for us to support.
13:44:25 <mattdm> #topic Freenode live
13:44:37 <mattdm> I've been asked to speak at this conference, so I will :)
13:45:08 <mattdm> It is apparently a general FLOSS summit kind of thing, not specifically three days of intense discussion about IRC
13:45:26 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: Do you have any kind of details about what's happening at the conference?
13:45:26 <bexelbie> +1 to publiccode
13:45:28 * bexelbie lagged
13:45:30 <jwf|matrix> The web page is pretty scant
13:45:52 <mattdm> #link https://freenode.live/
13:45:55 <bexelbie> jwf|matrix, did you see https://freenode.live/ ?
13:46:00 <bexelbie> jinx
13:46:06 <jwf|matrix> I couldn't tell what the focus or purpose of the conference was other than to get open source people in the same room
13:46:06 <mattdm> do you have *that* web page? It seems to be weirdly hard to find from the main freenode page
13:46:13 <jwf|matrix> I did, unless it's changed very recently
13:46:40 <mattdm> jwf|matrix: yeah, I think that is basically it
13:46:52 <mattdm> This is not particularly in line with what we've being talking about wrt strategic spending
13:47:07 <jwf|matrix> The web page just seemed very vague about the conference. I was just having a hard time seeing what kind of people they're trying to attract at there
13:47:11 <mattdm> But, I think there's a mitigating factor, which is that freenode is basically Fedora's nervous system
13:47:33 <mattdm> or our spinal cord at least :)
13:47:45 <mattdm> So I'm happy to support them for that.
13:47:50 <jwf|matrix> Would make it easier to know more about what kinds of material to bring / present
13:48:14 <jwf|matrix> Yeah, but I think it's also a nice gesture to participate from a community POV, at least with Freenode as the organizers
13:48:27 <mattdm> I think as a new conference, no one really knows what the vibe is going to be like
13:48:38 <mattdm> We've been told we can basically do whatever we like
13:48:43 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: +1
13:48:53 <bexelbie> exactly, but in talking to christel they are seeing great response and are thinking about where it could for next year if this year goes well
13:49:00 <jwf|matrix> I'm just curious about what they're trying to do with this conference other than get people in the same room and talk
13:49:04 <jwb> mattdm: let's go and talk about telegram
13:49:20 <jwf|matrix> Can I find rooms organized by IRC channel? 😁
13:49:37 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: Ack, interesting then
13:49:52 <jwf|matrix> Is there anything else you wanted to mention other than you're speaking?
13:50:02 <jwf|matrix> Did we want to mobilize Ambassadors for this too?
13:50:22 <mattdm> I'd love to use it as a way to experiment with different kind of things Fedora can do at events. Possibly we could have a FAD related to improving our IRC onboarding, Hubs/IRC integration, etc.
13:50:42 <robyduck> back, sorry :(
13:50:43 <mattdm> jwf|matrix: I'd love help coming up with good ideas. And mobilizing ambassadors around those ideas.
13:50:50 <mattdm> robyduck: welcome back :)
13:51:15 <mattdm> as per previous topic, if we have a great idea, we can find budgetr
13:51:17 <mattdm> budget
13:51:35 <mattdm> but also it's the same time as previously-mentioned LISA
13:51:43 * jwf|matrix nods
13:52:13 * jkurik brb
13:52:32 <jwf|matrix> Is there already a thread started on this on the list? Might be curious to see if anyone on list also has ideas for experiments. I can probably think of some ideas too, but it probably wouldn't be by today.
13:53:08 <mattdm> There is not. I'll start one. Probably Ambassador's list?
13:53:19 <bexelbie> if we could EMEA ambassadors that would solve the lisa conflict
13:53:20 <mattdm> #action mattdm to start thread about what we want to do with this.
13:53:48 <mattdm> bexelbie: yeah
13:53:56 <mattdm> okay then I think that's about all there
13:54:00 <mattdm> #topic Anything Else?
13:54:10 <jwf|matrix> mattdm: yeah, actually, general Ambassadors list seems good
13:54:44 <jwf|matrix> Free cookies 🍪🍪🍪
13:54:50 <jwf|matrix> And maybe a cup or two more of ☕
13:54:55 * jwf|matrix doesn't have anything
13:55:00 * bexelbie is good
13:55:18 <jwb> does anyone want to discuss the nvidia repo and subsequent LWN.net article?
13:55:25 * jkurik back
13:55:29 <robyduck> nothing else here
13:55:46 <jwf|matrix> bexelbie: Or maybe some 🍰 for the FCAIC
13:55:54 <jwf|matrix> jwb: Link?
13:55:58 <mattdm> #topic Nvidia repo, LWN, etc.
13:56:11 <mattdm> jwb in three minutes :)
13:56:31 <jwb> jwf|matrix: subscriber only at the moment: https://lwn.net/Articles/734789/
13:56:39 <mattdm> #link https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/734789/2cf54e3955f3929f/
13:56:47 <jwb> ah, that's a better link
13:56:49 <mattdm> ^ non-subscriber access
13:57:23 <mattdm> #info Third party software proposal *does not yet have final approval*
13:57:23 <jwb> so my concern here is that there seems to be a disconnect between what some on the Workstation WG consider blocker around 3rd party repos and what the rest of the project is doing
13:57:28 <mattdm> #link https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/121
13:57:38 <jwb> i think this specific issue is sorted out, but that would be good to clarify
13:57:57 <mattdm> jwb: Yes. There is also a disconnect between what I was told would be the plan and what was being asked for here
13:58:23 <mattdm> That is: introduce a mechanism in workstation for holding back kernel updates (with override for severe security issues)
13:58:38 <mattdm> Vs: have all of fedora hold up even pushing kernel updates
14:00:07 <jwb> i think the fallback plan is still being implemented, but perhaps not as originally described
14:00:24 <jwb> anyway, i bring it up mostly for general Council awareness.  not something we need to solve in this meeting
14:00:47 <mattdm> Yeah we are at time for this meeting
14:00:55 <mattdm> but I do think it's important to get a handle on
14:01:06 <mattdm> I can talk to christian about it at our next face-to-face
14:01:15 <mattdm> are there other specific actions we should take?
14:01:16 <jwf|matrix> The context helps.
14:01:18 <jkurik> before we wrap up...
14:01:19 <jkurik> may I have some feedback in https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/135 please ?
14:02:09 <mattdm> #topic Elections Interview
14:02:10 <jwf|matrix> jkurik: I can get it in another hour after my commute
14:02:21 <mattdm> #action everyone respond to ticket https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/135
14:02:23 <jwf|matrix> Ah, unless we discuss now :)
14:02:36 <mattdm> nope ending meeting. just sneaking it in :)
14:02:37 <jkurik> thanks everyone :)
14:02:46 <robyduck> jkurik: my only concern is why we ask for the questionnaire before the nomination
14:03:00 * jwf|matrix nods
14:03:01 <mattdm> ending now so we can get to jkurik's next meeting so i can then have breakfast before my *next* meeting :)
14:03:06 <mattdm> #endmeeting