19:11:15 <Rhea> #startmeeting Fedora DotNet (2016-12-06)
19:11:15 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Dec  6 19:11:15 2016 UTC.  The chair is Rhea. Information about MeetBot at
19:11:15 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:11:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_dotnet_(2016-12-06)'
19:11:17 <Rhea> #meetingname dotnet
19:11:17 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'dotnet'
19:11:20 <Rhea> #nick dotnet
19:11:22 <bt0> me
19:11:30 <Rhea> #topic Agenda
19:11:32 <Rhea> #link
19:11:38 <Rhea> #info (1) Roll Call
19:11:39 <Rhea> #info (2) Announcements
19:11:49 <Rhea> #info (3) Action items and Tickets
19:11:51 <Rhea> #info (4) Packaging progress
19:11:54 <Rhea> #info (7) Open Floor
19:11:56 * rkieley waves
19:11:58 <rmartinelli> .hello rimolive
19:11:59 <zodbot> rmartinelli: rimolive 'None' <>
19:12:00 <Rhea> #topic Roll Call
19:12:04 <Rhea> #info Name; Timezone; Sub-projects/Interest Areas
19:12:08 <Rhea> #action dotnet New members, make sure you introduce yourself on the DotNet mailing list [ ]
19:12:13 <Rhea> If this is your first time at a DotNet meeting, feel free to introduce yourself to everyone and say hello! If anyone has any questions before we get started with the rest of the agenda, now is also a good time to ask.
19:12:23 <vukovinski> !
19:12:24 <Rhea> .hello rhea
19:12:25 <zodbot> Rhea: rhea 'Radka Janek' <>
19:12:26 <nmilosev> .fas nmilosev
19:12:28 <zodbot> nmilosev: nmilosev 'Nemanja Milosevic' <>
19:12:31 <tpokorra> .hello tpokorra
19:12:31 <rkieley> .hello roddiekieley
19:12:32 <zodbot> tpokorra: tpokorra 'Timotheus Pokorra' <>
19:12:35 <zodbot> rkieley: roddiekieley 'Roddie Kieley' <>
19:12:42 <Rhea> #info Radka Janek; UTC+1; CommOps, Diversity, DotNet,...
19:12:45 <bt0> .hello bt0dotninja
19:12:46 <zodbot> bt0: bt0dotninja 'Alberto Rodriguez Sanchez' <>
19:12:48 <Rhea> Hi everyone!
19:12:55 * Rhea waves intensively
19:12:57 <Rhea> :D
19:13:01 <omajid> .hello omajid
19:13:02 <zodbot> omajid: omajid 'Omair Majid' <>
19:13:03 <tmds> hi all
19:13:06 <vukovinski> I'm new das: vukovinski, gmt+1, hello
19:13:06 <omajid> hey!
19:13:15 <Rhea> vukovinski: Welcome :]
19:13:25 <tmds> .hello tmds
19:13:26 <zodbot> tmds: tmds 'Tom Deseyn' <>
19:13:33 <rkieley> #info Roddie Kieley; UTC-2.5; DotNet, PowerShell, MSBuild
19:14:05 <tmds> why am I hello-ing myself?
19:14:07 <bt0> #info Alberto Rodriguez;UTC-6;Commops, DotNet, metrics
19:14:36 <Rhea> #topic Announcements
19:14:36 <vukovinski> #info Filip Vukovinski UTC-1, DotNet, Haskell
19:14:58 <pcreech> .hello pcreech17
19:14:59 <zodbot> pcreech: pcreech17 'Patrick Creech' <>
19:15:10 <Rhea> I was looking into Rider aaaaand... it's cool, but with too many bugs still
19:15:20 <vukovinski> +1
19:15:35 <nmilosev> (it's gonna be real good when they fix it :))
19:15:54 <Rhea> Two of the biggest and most annoying ones are: 1) it's slow... It lags all the time when it's'generating autocomplete lists, for a second or even more
19:16:25 <Rhea> (and my project is relatively small, less than 50 classes, less than 10k lines
19:17:21 <Rhea> 2) can't change formatting style, so it keeps enforcing the awful one i hate... Can't'even disable `;` or `}` to stop it reformatting the code above, there is a checkbox but it doesn't actually work x_x
19:17:44 <Rhea> Anyone got any actual announcements?
19:17:55 <nmilosev> !
19:18:01 <Rhea> Hmmmm? O_O
19:18:06 <nmilosev> I have 2!
19:18:11 <Rhea> Go ahead :D
19:18:21 <nmilosev> okay so number 1
19:18:28 <Rhea> I hope that you won't keep them for yourself >_<
19:18:40 <nmilosev> in my copr the build is updated for F25, so you can use my terrible package on F25 yay :D
19:18:49 <Rhea> :D
19:18:53 <nmilosev> I'm currently updating the package to 1.1
19:18:59 <omajid> nmilosev++
19:18:59 <zodbot> omajid: Karma for nmilosev changed to 6 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:19:00 <rkieley> nmilosev +1
19:19:05 <rmartinelli> nmilosev++
19:19:11 <nmilosev> (the current one is old 1.0)
19:19:11 <rkieley> nmilosev++ even :)
19:19:12 <bt0> nmilosev++
19:19:12 <zodbot> bt0: Karma for nmilosev changed to 7 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:19:13 <Rhea> We have to make it the proper way tho, as in, actually come up with a package
19:19:20 <vukovinski> nmilosev++
19:19:21 <zodbot> vukovinski: Karma for nmilosev changed to 8 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:19:22 <tmds> nmilosec++
19:19:27 * rkieley needs to move up from f23
19:19:29 <nmilosev> Yes, this is only for using it in the meantime :(
19:19:31 <tmds> nmilosev++
19:19:31 <zodbot> tmds: Karma for nmilosev changed to 9 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:19:39 <nmilosev> Anyway the 1.1 should be up by the end of the week
19:19:53 <nmilosev> So for the time being we can use that to play around :(
19:19:54 <Rhea> ie by using the Rover tool, and omajid can provide the rest
19:19:59 <Rhea> :]
19:20:06 <nmilosev> #2:
19:20:26 <nmilosev> I've been accepted as a speaker to to talk about dotnet in fedora
19:20:33 * bt0 thinks nmilosev is awesome
19:20:36 <vukovinski> yaay
19:20:40 <Rhea> huh
19:20:42 <nmilosev> it's in january (26th)
19:20:42 <bt0> amazing
19:20:49 <rkieley> nmilosev++ congrats
19:20:50 <Rhea> You're getting ahead of yourself / ourselves o_o
19:20:54 <rmartinelli> we'll meet in there...
19:21:00 <nmilosev> so by then I hope we can come up to some solution
19:21:14 <vukovinski> or you'll have a long talk
19:21:16 <nmilosev> I will definitely spend more time on figuring out how to properly package
19:21:20 <moto-timo> meh. I forgot which room it was in
19:21:40 <nmilosev> vukovinski, yes :D
19:21:42 <moto-timo> and several impromptu meetings/calls today
19:21:49 <Rhea> Or long walk... hmm
19:21:54 <Rhea> Sorry :D
19:21:56 <nmilosev> anyway, the presentation isn't really about packaging fedora
19:22:03 <nmilosev> I mean dotnet for fedora
19:22:15 <nmilosev> It's about using dotnet in fedora (the ecosystem so far)
19:22:24 <nmilosev> I hope we will package it by then ;)
19:22:39 <nmilosev> Anyway, that's it I hope I meet you all there
19:22:56 * moto-timo hardly ever gets travel budget
19:23:07 * nmilosev just got Rhea's joke, nice! :D
19:23:16 <omajid> fwiw, i have been passing on the fedora concerns (build from source, bootstrapping using binaries) to the developers working on dotnet core. hopefully things will get much better.
19:23:46 <moto-timo> omajid++ for working with upstream dotnet
19:23:46 <zodbot> moto-timo: Karma for omajid changed to 2 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:23:51 <Rhea> WE have been :D
19:23:52 <rkieley> omajid++
19:23:58 <vukovinski> omajid++
19:23:58 <zodbot> vukovinski: Karma for omajid changed to 3 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:24:00 <rkieley> omajid good to have that communication channel open
19:24:42 <Rhea> #topic Action items and Tickets
19:24:46 <Rhea> #link
19:24:49 <Rhea> #link
19:24:53 <Rhea> #info How This Works: We look at past #action items from the last meeting for quick follow-up. If a task is completed, we move on to the next one. If it isn't, we get an update and re-action it if needed. If no status, we'll try to get a quick update and move forward.
19:24:57 <Rhea> #info === [INCOMPLETE] dotnet Attempt to create F25 package. ===
19:25:01 <Rhea> #action dotnet Attempt to create F25 package.
19:25:24 <Rhea> #info nmilosev created a dirty package, we still need to create a clean one.
19:25:34 <Rhea> #topic Packaging progress
19:25:49 <Rhea> Here i'll mention the .... now i have to find a link >_<
19:26:08 <rmartinelli> Is that even possible? Don't we still have issues with dependencies from Microsoft?
19:26:24 <rmartinelli> Regarding create a clean dotnet package.
19:27:12 <nmilosev> the libicu dependency was apparently resolved with a PR
19:27:20 <Rhea> Nope
19:27:25 <nmilosev> but the PR merge will only be viable in the later release
19:27:32 <Rhea> Yup
19:27:36 <rmartinelli> That's great news!
19:28:00 <Rhea> This one!
19:28:11 <Rhea>
19:28:23 <Rhea> #info Discussion about .net versioning
19:29:05 <Rhea> In that tmds brought up the issue of applications not running under different minor versions...
19:29:38 <Rhea> So Based on that we will probably go with LTS to be packaged, and latest..
19:30:24 <omajid> LTS makes sense. but latest will still be "breaking".
19:30:39 <tmds> github issue:
19:30:41 <bt0> key point, maybe we can't not package all versions, only LTS
19:31:05 <omajid> eg, assume we put 1.1 in to F25. 1.2 comes out, in say, 6 months. now for rest of F25, no one is supporting 1.1, but we can't put in 1.2, because it will break things
19:31:06 <bt0> omg :(
19:31:45 <Rhea> Well we would keep 1.1 going
19:32:04 <omajid> from what i understand, upstream will stop supporting 1.1 a few months (3 or so) after 1.2 comes out.
19:32:07 <rmartinelli> It's like python 2 and python 3, right?
19:32:27 <Rhea> Pretty much
19:32:31 <nmilosev> rmartinelli, yep
19:32:48 <omajid> rmartinelli: yup. but worst case is much worse. upstream can have, at one point in time, supported versions of 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 and 2.0.
19:32:56 <rmartinelli> so why not having both packages with proper names like dotnet11 and dotnet12?
19:32:56 <Rhea> Well upstream can stop supporting it, but the packages will remain o.o
19:33:11 <rmartinelli> omajid: ouch!
19:33:14 <omajid> Rhea: sure, but then security issues and/or bugfixes.
19:33:41 <omajid> rmartinelli: it will only be that way for a month or so, so we probably wont put all those in, but just putting it out there.
19:34:11 <omajid> .net core hasn't had any security issues so far. but core has had one (set).
19:34:43 <nmilosev> omajid, do you have a link maybe?
19:34:47 <omajid> sure:
19:34:56 <Rhea> Anyway what we kinda agreed on with tmds is best case scenario that we should try to push for, that the applications would run on higher (latest) version if the correct version is not available
19:35:19 <omajid> i saw a chart with lifetimes, which was more informative at one glance, but i can't find it now.
19:35:37 <nmilosev> Another problem is that even with minor updates API change, so users will maybe want to stay on prior versions
19:35:53 <nmilosev> (kinda like py2 vs py3)
19:36:11 <tmds> the two people in charge of the versioning of .net core are on the github issue
19:36:31 <tmds> but they are not moving
19:36:32 <Rhea> The github issue is still open, we will see what will happen
19:36:40 <moto-timo> is the libicu thing getting figured out?
19:36:50 <tmds> yes, the libicu thing is fixed
19:36:53 <tmds> but not in 1.1
19:37:01 <Rhea> tmds++ is nicely above the problem and i'm also following it
19:37:01 <zodbot> Rhea: Karma for tmds changed to 1 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:37:02 <omajid> moto-timo: it as fixed upstream:
19:37:12 <moto-timo> thank goodness
19:37:14 <moto-timo> :)
19:37:15 <omajid> agreed. tmds++
19:37:15 <zodbot> omajid: Karma for tmds changed to 2 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:37:19 <Rhea> moto-timo: no, the PR that's fixing it will happen in 1.2
19:37:30 <bt0> tmds++
19:37:31 <zodbot> bt0: Karma for tmds changed to 3 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:37:40 <moto-timo> just as long as a future release fixes it, I am happy :)
19:38:01 <Rhea> Soooo lets go back to F25 dotnet 1.1
19:38:01 <tmds> 1.2 will also bring netstandard2.0 support (and so will mono 4.8)
19:38:11 <Rhea> yey for mono
19:38:27 <Rhea> I was looking to hear about that, i'm glad it's moving
19:38:32 <nmilosev> netstandard2.0 is looking awesome
19:38:50 <nmilosev> it really is "one .net" :)
19:39:04 <vukovinski> some new APIs?
19:39:16 <Rhea> Packaging 1.1 for F25 can be done, tmds did create a package, however we can't use that because it's using MS' proprietary license.
19:39:30 <Rhea> We need to build stuffs and then shove it into the Rover tool.
19:39:51 <Rhea> omajid already built that for RedHat so we can use it (MIT/Apache)
19:39:52 <nmilosev> vukovinski, they are having shims for some platforms so you can use a lot of functionalities previously unavailable
19:40:03 <nmilosev> (which are available on other platforms)
19:40:19 <nmilosev> Rhea, also we have another problem with licensing
19:40:33 <nmilosev> when you get binaries it's not MIT in there :(
19:40:45 <Rhea> What is not
19:40:47 <nmilosev> It's some microsoft license
19:40:54 <Rhea> That's what i'm talking about
19:40:57 <Rhea> I think?
19:41:02 <nmilosev> oh
19:41:05 <nmilosev> I was thinking
19:41:06 <moto-timo> Yeah, the stuff omajid built is ok
19:41:16 <nmilosev> When you get dotnet.tar.gz from site
19:41:17 <moto-timo> (IANAL)
19:41:22 <nmilosev> it's not MIT there
19:41:39 * bt0 nods
19:41:43 <Rhea> So yeah nmilosev if you want to give it a try this weekend, you can ask omajid for a link to what he built, that would save some time and effort
19:41:50 <Rhea> this week*
19:42:06 <Rhea> Then you would just use the rover thingie and hopefully it will go just fine
19:42:25 <nmilosev> I'm not sure if I follow
19:42:27 <moto-timo> not clean, but functional (and acceptable)
19:42:41 <omajid> fwiw, that will get us a dotnet binary that works on fedora, but still not something that meets packaging guidelines. it's a first step, though.
19:42:49 <moto-timo> pull the dotnet.tar.gz from omajid's RH build
19:42:53 <nmilosev> ah
19:43:08 <Rhea> It's fine for Copr
19:43:10 <Rhea> at least
19:43:11 <nmilosev> that isn't just prepackaged by MS, I get it now
19:43:23 <nmilosev> moto-timo++
19:43:23 <zodbot> nmilosev: Karma for ttorling changed to 3 (for the f25 release cycle):
19:43:43 <Rhea> Yes nmilosev, just read the whole thing i wrote :D
19:43:51 <nmilosev> sorry
19:43:53 <moto-timo> yeah, just keep it on copr for now and be happy
19:43:59 <nmilosev> real tired
19:45:34 <Rhea> When we have Copr (or official download) for F23, F24, F25 then i'll be happy to start getting serious... - We should aim for having the packaging nailed down for F26 release, so it can fly with dotnet flag
19:46:01 <vukovinski> +1
19:46:05 <bt0> +1
19:46:31 <moto-timo> +1
19:46:33 * tmds was disconnected
19:46:34 <tmds> +1
19:46:39 <Rhea> I'll skip 25 on my notebook, ill wait for that Fedora 26 with dotnet :]
19:46:43 <nmilosev> haha
19:46:43 <Rhea> hee hee
19:46:47 <rkieley> +1
19:46:49 <Rhea> tmds: welcome back
19:46:59 <moto-timo> keep yourself sane, Rhea :)
19:47:01 <moto-timo> +1
19:47:01 <Rhea> we were discussing F25 - rover - license
19:48:50 <Rhea> #info Packaging 1.1 for F25 can be done, tmds did create a package, however we can't use that because it's using MS' proprietary license. We need to build stuffs and then shove it into the Rover tool. omajid already built that for RedHat so we can use it (MIT/Apache)
19:48:52 <moto-timo> is there a procedure to get formal legal review?
19:49:26 <moto-timo> I assume Fedora (or RedHat) has legal counsel
19:49:40 * bt0 moto-timo has a point
19:49:48 <Rhea> There is, and I don't know anything about it
19:49:51 <omajid>
19:49:55 * moto-timo has been bit before in my corporate culture
19:52:08 <Rhea> What would you ask them moto-timo
19:52:30 <moto-timo> just to review our proposal about the binary built by omajid
19:52:45 <moto-timo> and check the rest of the dotnet license(s) to make sure we are safe
19:53:05 <moto-timo> I think we are, but IANAL
19:54:07 <Rhea> Are you going to or do you want me?
19:54:35 <Rhea> #topic Open Floor
19:54:40 <vukovinski> !
19:54:45 <Rhea> Shoot!
19:55:01 <vukovinski> lib spotlight: David Arno's Succin<T>
19:55:03 <vukovinski>
19:55:24 <vukovinski> pattern matching, discriminated unions, partial application
19:55:41 <omajid> so much functional goodness!
19:56:03 <nmilosev> yeah <3
19:56:08 <vukovinski> I'm writing a short review
19:57:09 <Rhea> hmm
19:57:33 <omajid> sorry, emergency, gotta run
19:58:46 <bt0> good bye omajid
19:58:52 <tmds> bb omajid
19:58:54 <nmilosev> o/ omajid
19:59:42 <moto-timo> Rhea It's not really my place to ask legal counsel. I am just saying that I think this is a case where it might be worth it.
19:59:48 <Rhea> I've got RH meeting in 30 seconds as well, so unless anything else anyone else...
20:00:04 <Rhea> moto-timo okay
20:00:11 <bt0> nothing here
20:00:13 <nmilosev> Lovely talking to you all, see you next week
20:00:15 <moto-timo> :)
20:00:16 <vukovinski> same time next week?
20:00:26 <tmds> ok, see you next week
20:00:30 * rkieley waves
20:00:32 <Rhea> #action Rhea Seek legal counsel regarding the different dotnet licenses.
20:00:34 <nmilosev> (I'll get the package ready probably tomorrow of day after)
20:00:49 <Rhea> #endmeeting