18:02:28 <jkurik> #startmeeting Council
18:02:28 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Nov 28 18:02:28 2016 UTC.  The chair is jkurik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:02:28 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:02:28 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:02:35 <jkurik> #meetingname council
18:02:35 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:02:43 <jkurik> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb cwickert langdon robyduck tatica bexelbie
18:02:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie cwickert jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck tatica
18:02:48 <jkurik> .hello jkurik
18:02:56 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com>
18:03:04 <jkurik> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
18:03:05 <langdon> .hello langdon
18:03:06 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
18:04:36 * langdon on the subway so may be a bit intermittent
18:04:46 <bexelbie> .hello bex
18:04:46 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
18:05:03 <jkurik> Hi bexelbie and langdon
18:05:08 <langdon> hi!
18:05:19 <bexelbie> hola
18:05:50 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
18:05:51 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
18:06:04 <jkurik> hi robyduck
18:06:13 * langdon notes we can't have robyduck and mattdm in the same place at the same time
18:06:20 <robyduck> hi jkurik bexelbie langdon
18:06:31 <robyduck> langdon: lol
18:06:56 <langdon> robyduck, just kindding
18:07:00 <langdon> kidding even
18:07:07 <jkurik> #topic Agenda
18:07:14 <jkurik> #info 1. Upcomming Elections
18:07:18 <robyduck> sur
18:07:20 <robyduck> e
18:07:24 <jkurik> anything else for the agenda today ?
18:08:02 <langdon> open floor i suppose
18:08:08 <langdon> any tickets we can talk about?
18:09:27 <jkurik> #info 2. Open Floor
18:09:57 <jkurik> ok, so lets start with the first item ...
18:10:09 <jkurik> #topic Upcoming Elections
18:10:17 <jkurik> #info Due to slips in F25 schedule the planned upcomming Elections are now overlapping with Christmas (voting period planned: Dec 20th ... Dec 26th)
18:10:25 <jkurik> #link https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-25/f-25-elections.html
18:10:38 <jkurik> I am proposing to prolong the Campaign period till January the 2nd 2017 and have the Voting period started on January 3rd 2017.
18:11:07 <jkurik> Is there any better proposal how to deal with this overlap ?
18:11:22 <robyduck> we had this also in the past, so it's just +1 for me
18:11:35 <bexelbie> Can we slip the election period this time but fix it for the future and just have the term of office shift?
18:11:36 <langdon> +1 from me too
18:11:40 <bexelbie> this way we don't have this problem again?
18:11:41 <bexelbie> +1
18:11:54 <langdon> jkurik, want to post a link to the election page for the minutes?
18:12:30 <langdon> ohh.. or is it not there yet?
18:13:02 <jkurik> langdon: I am just preparing the Elections wiki pages for these elections
18:13:14 <langdon> jkurik, yeah.. makes sense :)
18:13:37 <jkurik> ok, so I consider this proposal as approved :)
18:13:46 <jkurik> #info the Campaign period will be prolonged till January the 2nd 2017 and the Voting period will start on January 3rd 2017.
18:14:11 <mpduty> .hello mpduty
18:14:12 <zodbot> mpduty: mpduty 'Mohan Prakash' <mpduty@gmail.com>
18:14:16 <jkurik> mattdm has also mention in his email that he wants to discuss coordination during the Elections
18:14:38 <jkurik> does anyone know what exactly Matt wanted to discuss ?
18:14:49 <langdon> wait.. jan 2?
18:15:22 <jkurik> langdon: yes
18:15:25 <langdon> would jan 9 be better to give people a week after the holidays?
18:15:35 * langdon brain didn't process the date
18:15:36 <jkurik> that is a possibility
18:16:05 <robyduck> makes also sense
18:16:30 <robyduck> many people are on holiday between xmas and the first week of january
18:16:32 <mpduty> hi bexelbie, robyduck
18:16:41 <bexelbie> +1 to Jan 9
18:17:16 * langdon also likes to give a weekend, hence 9 vs 7
18:17:29 <jkurik> ok, so lets start with the Voting on Jan 10th (we start on Tuesday)
18:17:40 <jkurik> #undo
18:17:40 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by jkurik at 18:13:46 : the Campaign period will be prolonged till January the 2nd 2017 and the Voting period will start on January 3rd 2017.
18:17:42 <robyduck> jkurik: then go with an undo and rephrase it :)
18:17:46 <robyduck> :D
18:18:06 <jkurik> #info the Campaign period will be prolonged till January the 9th 2017 and the Voting period will start on January 10th 2017.
18:18:29 <jkurik> anything else related to the Elections ?
18:18:35 <langdon> jkurik, is that fine from a timeline perspective?
18:19:13 <jkurik> it is quite late IMO, however we probably do not have a better option
18:19:40 <robyduck> ?
18:20:04 <bexelbie> When does the new council member take office?
18:20:09 * bexelbie doesn't know the whole timeline
18:20:59 <jkurik> bexelbie: this is the schedule: https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-25/f-25-elections.html
18:21:21 <jkurik> the new member will be in Charge once the results are announced
18:21:23 <bexelbie> It doesn't say when the term of office begins. Is that 27 Dec?
18:21:25 <bexelbie> ok
18:21:35 * langdon also read voting as ending on the 2 cause I'm a dummy
18:21:51 <robyduck> jkurik: how many seats and for which bodies are vacant? What about FAmSCo? Do we have a plan for it too?
18:21:55 <langdon> Vs voting open
18:22:27 <bexelbie> Is there any way to pull the nomination period earlier?
18:22:37 <bexelbie> FAmSCo is going to have an election - I don't think they have planned the timing yet
18:23:08 <jkurik> robyduck: the aim was to have already FAmSCo replaced by FOSCo
18:23:30 <robyduck> jkurik: right, but it has not been replaced yet
18:23:37 <bexelbie> FAmSCo/FOSCo is a rather complex issue
18:23:49 <bexelbie> and I am beleiving that we will not be doing a replacement
18:24:10 <bexelbie> There seems to be a lack of movement on the process and I wanted to talk about in the Open Floor
18:24:34 <jkurik> My plan was to send an email to the FAmSCo mailinglist to check whether they want to have the Elections or not
18:24:53 * robyduck would not aim for FAmSCo elections at all, but go for a automatic renew of the actual members with a FOSCo start deadline, or something like that
18:24:56 <jkurik> bexelbie: ok, so let it for open floor
18:25:23 <robyduck> whoops, sorry
18:25:27 <robyduck> open floor then
18:26:22 <bexelbie> Do we need to have overlapping periods for both elections?
18:26:47 <jkurik> bexelbie: FAmSCo elections were part of the overal Elections process
18:27:01 <jkurik> so it shares the schedule
18:27:21 <bexelbie> If every group is required to do their elections on the same schedule then I think we have no choice but to extend the timeline
18:28:23 <jkurik> bexelbie: I am not aware of any strong requirement like this, however that is how we were doing it during the past times
18:28:43 <jkurik> it saves resources
18:28:45 <bexelbie> Are there any other elections other than FAmSCo and Council this time?
18:28:52 <jkurik> FESCo
18:29:11 <jkurik> and refresh for Modularity
18:29:51 <jkurik> refresh -> checking with all the current members whether they want to stay in the possition or not
18:29:55 <bexelbie> If we want to keep it synced we should do what works for the majority.  I suspect pulling the period in will cause more problems than extending it
18:30:30 <jkurik> at least for me, as the election wrangler, it will be quite confusing :)
18:30:54 <bexelbie> :P
18:31:40 <jkurik> ok, so lets move on to the Open Floor to discuss FAmSCo/FOSCo....
18:31:50 <jkurik> #topic Open Floor
18:32:21 <jkurik> bexelbie: may I ask you please to provide us with the current status etc.
18:32:42 <bexelbie> Wait, what was the final decision on the election timeline?
18:33:33 <robyduck> 9th?
18:33:42 <jkurik> the Campaign period will be prolonged till January the 9th 2017 and the Voting period will start on January 10th 2017.
18:33:55 <bexelbie> ok, I didn't see the #agreed :)
18:34:17 <jkurik> I put it under #info
18:35:59 <bexelbie> ok
18:36:00 <bexelbie> typing
18:36:01 <bexelbie> Regarding FAmSCo/FOSCo - there was an original proposal to do a replacement.  This proposal got bogged down in discussions of how seats would be allocated with the desire of some to ensure a majority of seats were held by ambassadors and by others to ensure this did not happen.  I began looking at the issues (as a late arrival to conversation) and couldn't understand how this was going to work.  This created a structure where Ambassador
18:36:01 <bexelbie> issues were now the responsibility of a larger group, including many non-ambassadors.  It also didn't seem to be solving hte problem, just moving it to a larger group.
18:36:28 <bexelbie> I proposed keeping FAmSCo and creating FOSCo with the goal of getting FAmSCo focussed on ambassadors
18:36:40 <bexelbie> and helping to improve that program and the cross-regional cooperation issues
18:37:00 <bexelbie> This would allow that important part of the project to get more love
18:37:19 <bexelbie> FOSCo would work to coordinate our public facing groups ideally with more work around sharing the messaging
18:37:39 <bexelbie> This has the challenge that it creates a cooperation group, not a deciding group, per some people.  I can understand this point
18:37:56 <bexelbie> I had several conversations with current FAmSCo members and have heard several themes
18:38:09 <bexelbie> 1. the current members are tired and not able to get much done because there is a lot of burn out
18:38:19 <bexelbie> 2. There is a feeling that history is hampering a lot of the work
18:38:30 <bexelbie> 3. There is a need for new blood and for new ideas
18:38:56 <bexelbie> to this end, I have been privately told that we should create a minimal charge for both groups and elect an ideally new group of people to implement and create
18:39:03 <bexelbie> give them a free hand and a direction
18:39:10 <bexelbie> I can see both sides of this idea as well
18:39:21 <bexelbie> With my recent travels to FUDCons (another issue) I haven't had time to drive this
18:39:33 <bexelbie> as far as I can tell FAmSCo hasn't driven it forward either
18:39:48 <bexelbie> I was thinking that we as the council may need to help here (was going to send an email about it today :) )
18:39:54 <bexelbie> eom (for now - muahahaha)
18:40:30 <langdon> ha
18:41:56 <robyduck> I think we cannot decide today about FOSCo, just about having elections or not. We should rather make a meetup, maybe with FAmSCo members to come to a decision about how to proceed with the new body
18:43:00 <bexelbie> I agree that we cannot decide today on this but we can schedule a meeting
18:43:33 <robyduck> yes
18:43:47 <jkurik> I think we need to involve mattdm to this discussion
18:44:12 <jkurik> What about starting with mailing thread (Council mailing list) ?
18:44:28 <langdon> bexelbie, can you provide people to the meeting with multiple views? and actually have a debate?
18:44:30 <jkurik> before we go to FAmSCo
18:45:02 <bexelbie> I believe that can be provided by having the meeting during a FAmSCo meeting
18:45:39 <bexelbie> I wonder if we shouldn't just put an item on their agenda and then show up.  We don't have to make a decision then, it can be fact-finding/debate
18:45:48 <bexelbie> but that way we get the details before we try to hash out our idealized view
18:47:35 <langdon> i kinda mean.. someone who is "volunteered" to present the different arguments.. they don't nec. have to agree with them
18:47:35 <langdon> like i think we keep going around and around because we are all trying to represent all the viewpoints (we ==  council)
18:47:39 <langdon> and maybe hammer out a proposal that satisifies all the "fake" parties?
18:47:59 <langdon> bexelbie, i like that idea
18:48:16 <langdon> as long as everyone can be open about their concerns
18:48:35 <langdon> my "thought" was reflecting the number of times you said "was told privately" ;)
18:49:09 <bexelbie> langdon, there are some challenges in the conversation as some members of the committee are very forceful in their view points
18:49:25 <bexelbie> others are not wanting to publicly seem to be abandoning but are trying to "stop licking the cookie"
18:49:55 <Southern_Gentlem> bexelbie, if they are burned out why do they keep nominating or accept nomination
18:50:14 <bexelbie> in many ways these challenges are endemic with the challenges I am hearing/seeing in ambassadors overall
18:50:15 * langdon notes noticing you are burned out can be difficult
18:50:29 <bexelbie> Southern_Gentlem, my understanding from them is that they cancelled their last election thinking they would be replacing themselves
18:50:46 <bexelbie> also some folks have had a change in circumstances creating limitations to their involvements
18:50:59 <Southern_Gentlem> bexelbie, we had an election and i ran for it
18:51:07 <bexelbie> I also feel like several are feeling burned out from this particular conversation as the conversation has been going on for a long time
18:51:14 <bexelbie> Southern_Gentlem, then I don't know - I can only report what I am told
18:51:24 * bexelbie was not active with Ambassadors prior to becoming FCaIC
18:51:31 <jkurik> from the last cwickert's report https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/CJWFU27AG4J6YPVTEFB5TKXD2Q4VVAMZ/ all the things were looking quite more optimistic
18:52:08 <bexelbie> This is not what I encountered when I began my work and I believe that cwicker's opinon has changed
18:52:34 <jkurik> yeah, it is almost 1/2 a year old
18:53:00 <jkurik> well.. 4 months
18:55:19 <langdon> ok.. so .. plan is .. let's get the council added to the agenda?
18:55:25 <langdon> and make sure some of us can make it?
18:55:30 <jkurik> we have last 5 minutes of the meeting, so how we would like to move on ?
18:55:37 <langdon> and see if we can poke enough bears to move forward?
18:56:12 <bexelbie> FAmSCo meets at 9 am Eastern on Wednesdays
18:56:52 <robyduck> uhmm
18:57:10 <robyduck> is that 14 UTC?
18:57:21 <jkurik> robyduck: yes, it is
18:57:34 <robyduck> ok thx
18:58:01 <bexelbie> yes
18:58:01 <bexelbie> https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/ambassadors/#m3893
18:58:31 * bexelbie has RDU and Brno in his calendar and not UTC because his calendar software hates him (restricts to two timezones)
18:58:36 <langdon> my suspiciion is neither mattdm nor i could do next weds as we are doing booth for lisa
18:59:00 <bexelbie> We could go for the week after
18:59:17 <robyduck> +1 for having mattdm present
18:59:28 <bexelbie> which gives all view points a longer prep period
19:00:03 <langdon> i should be able to make it
19:00:14 <langdon> can't speak to matt aside from next week
19:01:44 <bexelbie> mattdm, will need to update us - if he is free shall I take the action item to open the appropriate ticket for FAmSCo?
19:01:57 <langdon> +1
19:02:03 <jkurik> proposed #info mattdm and langdon to join the FAmSCo meeting on 2016-Dec-07 and discuss the current state and the future of FAmSCo/FOSCo transition
19:02:28 * langdon notes he stinks at not being volunteered
19:03:18 <jkurik> langdon: you can rephrase the proposal
19:03:24 <langdon> ha
19:03:31 <langdon> i guess i was just hoping for more members
19:03:55 <bexelbie> proposed #info mattdm and all other available council members to join the FAmSCo meeting on 2016-Dec-14 to discuss the current state of FAmSCo and the proposal for FOSCo
19:04:14 <jkurik> +1 to the proposal
19:04:25 <langdon> +1
19:04:38 <bexelbie> +1 FWIW
19:05:11 <jkurik> robyduck ^^^
19:05:22 <robyduck> ops, sorry
19:05:24 <robyduck> +1
19:05:36 <jkurik> #info mattdm and all other available council members to join the FAmSCo meeting on 2016-Dec-14 to discuss the current state of FAmSCo and the proposal for FOSCo
19:05:43 * robyduck takes note on his agneda
19:05:49 <jkurik> #link https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/ambassadors/#m3893
19:06:09 <jkurik> ok, so anything else for the meeting today ?
19:06:36 <jkurik> if not, I am going to close this meeting in 1 minute
19:06:56 <bexelbie> +1 for close
19:06:57 <langdon> weird.. that link did not take me to dec. 14...
19:07:09 <langdon> but it is the same link i have when on the dec. 14 meeting
19:07:12 <bexelbie> Anyone need a calendar invite?
19:07:18 <langdon> whatever.. +1 to close
19:07:23 <langdon> bexelbie, me.. or ill make it
19:07:47 <bexelbie> you've got ical mail
19:08:00 <jkurik> ok, thanks all for the discussion
19:08:00 <langdon> bexelbie, thanks
19:08:03 <jkurik> #endmeeting