15:01:02 <adamw> #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting
15:01:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Aug 22 15:01:02 2016 UTC.  The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_qa_meeting'
15:01:07 <adamw> #meetingname fedora-qa
15:01:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
15:01:11 <adamw> #topic Roll call
15:01:12 * kparal is here
15:01:18 * sumantro is here
15:01:20 * a2batic is here
15:01:21 <adamw> morning folks, who's around?
15:01:23 * brunowolff is here
15:01:26 * satellit listening
15:01:38 * satellit listening
15:02:09 <sumantro> morning Adamw! :)
15:02:25 * coremodule is here.
15:03:01 * cmurf made it
15:03:03 * pschindl2 is here
15:03:04 <adamw> thanks for coming out everyone
15:03:12 <adamw> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
15:03:19 <adamw> yikes, pschindl's been upgraded
15:03:44 <kparal> pschindl 2.0
15:03:52 <adamw> so we have "adamw and/or coremodule to start Fedora 24 'Heroes of Fedora' posts" - coremodule, i know you were working on that, how's it going?
15:03:58 <cmurf> his upgrade crashed
15:04:01 <adamw> heh
15:04:11 <adamw> i guess he's still on preupgrade
15:04:28 <coremodule> The posts are completed, as of last Friday they were still pending approval.
15:05:13 <sumantro> Justin is shifting , so probably that's causing the delay
15:05:24 <adamw> coremodule: awesome
15:05:39 <adamw> coremodule: did you do all three? or just alpha?
15:05:52 <coremodule> Just gave it another look, they're still pending as of today.
15:06:00 <coremodule> Yeah, all three, alpha, beta, and final.
15:06:07 <adamw> great job
15:06:14 <coremodule> Thanks a lot.
15:06:26 <adamw> #info "adamw and/or coremodule to start Fedora 24 'Heroes of Fedora' posts" - coremodule has written these, they're waiting to be reviewed and published by an editor
15:06:57 <adamw> #info "adamw to check in with satellit on live CD creation instructions next steps" - I did that, satellit's still working through the process
15:07:00 <adamw> right satellit?
15:07:20 <satellit> still not able to edit it....
15:07:39 * satellit nubie
15:07:54 <adamw> satellit: i'll try and help you a bit later
15:08:05 <satellit> it is on the wiki
15:09:05 <adamw> "sumantro to contact owners of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Replace_UDisks2_by_Storaged for potential test day" - sumantro? you've been working on that, right?
15:09:36 <sumantro> Yes , I am adamw
15:09:57 <sumantro> got a reply and they wanna go for it as soon as we get Alpha
15:10:12 <adamw> ok, sounds good
15:10:13 <sumantro> same with Fedora Media Writer
15:10:47 <cmurf> questionon whether the code signed version will be done by beta?
15:10:48 <adamw> #info sumantro has been in touch and the team are positive about a test day, ticket is created: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/489 , next step: set a date and create the wiki page and tests
15:10:53 * satellit fedora media writer for win and osx?
15:10:58 <adamw> cmurf: signed what?
15:11:00 <cmurf> or if that'll be tested post-beta
15:11:06 <cmurf> signed FMW for Windows and macOS
15:11:08 <sumantro> Win
15:11:22 <adamw> we have a 'test days status' agenda item coming up
15:11:29 <adamw> so we can discuss it then? we're still in follow-up atm
15:11:33 <cmurf> I haven't heard anything about the code signing process and infra so...guess we can ask on the test day
15:11:42 <adamw> ah, or on the next item, in fact :P
15:11:58 <adamw> which is "cmurf and sumantro to co-ordinate on organizing test days for Wayland-by-default, BetterSwitchableGraphicsSupport and FedoraMediaWriterAsPrimaryDownloadable"
15:12:01 <adamw> so how are we going on those?
15:12:07 <cmurf> yeah i just mean that the question needs to be asked, not necessarily answered
15:12:13 <cmurf> well sumantro is doing all of the work
15:12:37 <cmurf> I was about to but then turned out he had done everything I was going to do already ;-)
15:12:57 <sumantro> everything is going fine Wayland-by-default proposal owners are yet to give me a reply
15:13:01 <adamw> you have to hit him over the head and tie him up or something
15:13:43 <adamw> sumantro: that's one we could probably go ahead and organize without them if necessary, but they should be responsive...you could try the desktop@ mailing list also, there's lots of discussion about the Change happening there
15:13:48 * cmurf is non-violent
15:14:10 <sumantro> and FedoraMediaWriterAsPrimaryDownloadable is going to be held couple of weeks after Alpha release
15:14:19 <sumantro> adamw sure , I will ping them up! :)
15:14:54 <cmurf> I suspect there is a bit of a holding pattern until Workstation WG clearly decides to go forward with Wayland by default
15:15:03 <cmurf> they deferred that to their next meeting which is today? Wednesday? I forget...
15:15:20 <cmurf> I think weds
15:15:28 <adamw> #info "cmurf and sumantro to co-ordinate on organizing test days for Wayland-by-default, BetterSwitchableGraphicsSupport and FedoraMediaWriterAsPrimaryDownloadable" - these are all moving along, https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/490 is for FedoraMediaWriter , still waiting for a reply from the Wayland change owners
15:15:45 <adamw> what's the status on switchable graphics?
15:15:52 <cmurf> goooood question
15:16:19 <sumantro> I have no update on that , but will follow up soon! :)
15:16:22 <cmurf> I totally spaced that one out which is funny, mr color and all
15:16:39 <adamw> alright :)
15:17:05 <cmurf> I'm curious to what degree wayland vs Xorg affects switchable graphics?
15:17:20 <cmurf> Include that in the questions for the change owner...
15:17:46 <adamw> #info "adamw to draft clarifications on joining process for QA/Join page, and a new sponsorship SOP for sponsors, and send drafts to test@ for review" - I did that, and the changes are now live, the new page is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_Sponsoring_New_Members
15:17:55 <adamw> cmurf: yeah, good point
15:18:27 <adamw> #info "sumantro to schedule another run of the onboarding meeting" - this ran on saturday and went great, a recording is available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASQmkOrB_DY
15:18:41 <adamw> anything to add there sumantro?
15:19:03 <sumantro> no, it was awesome and thanks for all the people who joined! :)
15:19:14 <adamw> great :)
15:19:19 <adamw> that's all for followup then, moving on
15:19:39 <adamw> #topic Fedora 25 Alpha/Test Days status
15:20:01 <adamw> so unfortunately alpha was delayed, largely due to compose issues
15:20:31 <adamw> #info Alpha was delayed due to compose issues, next Go/No-Go meeting will be this Thursday 2016-08-25
15:20:44 <adamw> we have blocker review coming up after this meeting of coursre
15:22:05 <adamw> #info Alpha test coverage looks pretty good, thanks to all who have helped out with that
15:22:43 <adamw> i'm *hopeful* we'll get some fixes in the compose process today (at least, we have some ideas) so if that goes well we'll be able to do a good Alpha RC today or tomorrow
15:23:06 <adamw> #info we'll aim for Alpha RC compose today or tomorrow
15:23:36 <adamw> hmm...it strikes me that we haven't really thought about Wayland-by-default specifically for Alpha...
15:23:55 <adamw> as things stand, Wayland would be default in the Alpha, I believe
15:24:14 <adamw> i'm ok with that...but does anyone know if the desktop SIG has considered it?
15:24:23 <cmurf> They know about it.
15:24:47 <cmurf> It was suggested last week by probinson that it get reverted asap, and the desktop folks were kinda reluctant to get off the fence either way.
15:25:01 <cmurf> So that's kinda why I pushed for a FESCo ticket to resolve the process question. Which is now answered.
15:25:11 <cmurf> But the WG still needs to get off the fence and decide if it's a go or not.
15:25:20 <cmurf> Both for release *and* for alpha.
15:25:41 <adamw> well, if they're not going to decide until wednesday, that's kinda too late for alpha
15:25:47 <cmurf> The fact it's been enabled this whole time is part of why I'm kinda like, let's just go with it.
15:25:51 <cmurf> yep
15:25:53 <cmurf> you're right
15:25:59 <adamw> i guess i'll mail the list right now and let them know that if they want it changed they need to get an FE in for it, like, now
15:26:00 <cmurf> so wayland by default for alpha at least
15:26:24 * satellit kde also?
15:26:30 <cmurf> i think wayland could pass all the alpha criteria on its own
15:26:47 <cmurf> if it can't, that's sorta a problem for it being quality enough for final - perhaps
15:27:03 <pbrobinson> cmurf: it went to FESCo and wayland as default on Workstation was approved, it was already enabled. Doesn't affect other DE envs
15:27:16 <cmurf> right
15:27:27 <cmurf> so I think it's fine to just leave it for alpha unless someone has a klaxon to sound
15:27:51 <cmurf> Firefox works great, Terminal has no problems with it...
15:28:11 <cmurf> that's pretty much the bulk for alpha functionality anyway
15:28:22 <cmurf> what could go wrong?
15:28:25 <cmurf> :-P
15:28:42 <cmurf> it's an alpha!
15:30:02 <adamw> pbrobinson: there seems to have been lots of follow-up pontification about whether it's ready yet, though (as always). see desktop@
15:30:07 <cmurf> I'll followup to adamw's email, I assume he's writing this very minute, asking the WG to just take an in email vote on it for alpha and defer the bigger questions for their wednesday meeting or whenever it is.
15:30:16 <adamw> cmurf: yeah, just sent it.
15:30:57 <cmurf> ok goodness
15:31:16 <adamw> alrighty
15:31:28 <adamw> does anyone have other notes/concerns on F25 Alpha stuff?
15:32:26 <Amita> nope it seems :)
15:32:40 <cmurf> ship it?
15:33:35 <adamw> =)
15:33:47 <adamw> so, any other thoughts on test days? or did we about cover the current status?
15:34:05 <cmurf> i think we're pretty well covered
15:34:45 <adamw> there is one ticket for a test day proposal from another group; is someone taking care of that? https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/488 (Modem support)
15:34:45 <coremodule> Good here.
15:34:52 <pbrobinson> adamw: most of that discussion was actually before the FESCo meeting I believe
15:34:53 <adamw> ah, looks like pschindl is
15:35:04 <pbrobinson> I was on the thread :)
15:35:08 <adamw> pschindl: didn't get lost in your upgrade i hope? :)
15:35:11 <adamw> pbrobinson: kk
15:36:34 <pwhalen> we're investigating a display issue on some arm devices. seems to be in userspace, but not quite sure
15:37:48 <adamw> #topic Wayland status and possible requirements
15:37:54 <adamw> so cmurf suggested this as a specific topic
15:38:11 <adamw> you want to summarize your thoughts, cmurf?
15:38:15 <adamw> #chair cmurf
15:38:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw cmurf
15:38:48 <cmurf> sure
15:38:59 <cmurf> Basic gist is, we're in a unique situation where we kinda have to accept, temporarily, a lower quality level for the default window manager.
15:39:16 <cmurf> Otherwise too much stuff would block release, which isn't strictly necessary because there is a non-default fallback, Xorg, for when things are problematic for Wayland.
15:39:30 <cmurf> But that doesn't mean any problem can be dealt with a finger pointing to just use X. Some problems go below a minimum usability, a minimum quality. And QA does get some say in what that minimum is. So how to deal with this without it amounting to handwaving?
15:39:42 <cmurf> Please discuss.
15:41:07 <adamw> is there any point where we *know* wayland doesn't meet the current release criteria?
15:41:11 * adamw isn't aware of any at this point
15:41:44 <cmurf> That's part of the issue, unknowns.
15:41:50 * satellit I run into a missing mouse cursor (in vm)? liveinst reqires return to run sometime
15:42:10 <cmurf> There's a pile of bugs I haven't gone through, it would not surprise me if some violate the "basica usability" whatever requirement.
15:42:24 <cmurf> No tablet support, no screen rotation still, etc.
15:43:03 <adamw> satellit: oh yeah, we know about the missing cursor one, it's a regression (a real actual regression!) of a bug we found before...it's being worked on
15:44:02 <cmurf> This might turn out to be a really easy transition, but I kinda expect there to be some problems.
15:44:16 <cmurf> And I think we're just going to have to handle them one case at a time along with the WG.
15:44:27 <adamw> cmurf: i think my instinct is more or less like yours - this is one of those points where we just have to say, ok, let's go ahead and do it ... i don't think i wanna go the way we went with graphical upgrade and say we as QA want to jump in with a list of requirements
15:44:59 <adamw> it's such a big hairy thing like the systemd change that at some point you've just gotta go for it and clean up afterwards as best we can
15:45:06 <adamw> just my opinion, though
15:45:09 <cmurf> yeah because that was a lot of work and in this case any requirements we come up with now may be obsolete in short order anyway
15:45:19 <cmurf> basically my thought
15:45:23 <adamw> right, and i suspect it'd all get a bit out of hand and messy and bureaucratic
15:45:29 <cmurf> exactly
15:45:34 <cmurf> take a vote move forward, suck it up
15:45:49 <cmurf> or maybe we have to revert and suck that up also and try again next time
15:46:18 <cmurf> Basically my thought comes down to I trust the collective subjectivity of the WG and QA folks *shrug*
15:46:18 <adamw> right, basically i'd say we should just let fesco and the WG decide whether we actually go with Wayland or Xorg, and then we'll just work out whatever issues ensue one at a time via the blocker process
15:46:43 <adamw> satellit: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1200901 is the cursor bug, btw
15:46:52 <satellit> k
15:46:54 <cmurf> bingo
15:47:08 <kparal> I'd say if there are serious issues with wayland and we have to sacrifice our requirements a lot, just defer to fesco
15:47:21 <adamw> yeah
15:47:48 <cmurf> I think the WG wants a quality release, I doubt they'd want to move forward if QA drew a line in the sand on a particular deficiency that gets discovered.
15:48:01 <cmurf> But yes, I do not mean to indicate at all that QA should not have the ability to draw a line in the sand.
15:48:05 <cmurf> That's actually my point.
15:48:17 <sgallagh> Well, that's what the blocker process is.
15:48:20 <cmurf> I just don't think we can say in advance what that line is, without a LOT of work and imagination.
15:48:34 <sgallagh> That's already a list of lines in the sand. (Arguably even lines set into the concrete)
15:48:45 <sgallagh> s/process/criteria/
15:49:08 <adamw> so, anyone disagree? or have anything else to bring into the discussion before we move on?
15:49:27 <sgallagh> /me reiterates his stance of "we have to take this hit eventually; why not now?"
15:49:40 <cmurf> I'm going with the idea that the criteria don't exactly apply to Wayland, I'm personally willing to accept some lower quality standard because Xorg is a fallback for those use cases.
15:50:05 <cmurf> It's just that when it's "too bad" is a subjective call, and I think that is OK and not to be avoided.
15:50:05 * satellit +1
15:50:30 <adamw> okey dokey
15:50:37 <adamw> #topic Onboarding meeting retrospective
15:50:43 <Southern_Gentlem> wayland will never advance but i still think its not mature enough
15:50:52 <adamw> so we ran the onboarding meeting again saturday, and by 'we' i mean 'sumantro' :)
15:51:00 <Southern_Gentlem> wayland will never advance if we dont push itbut i still think its not mature enough
15:51:01 <adamw> sumantro, how'd everything go?
15:51:20 <cmurf> Just got a reply from mcatanzaro the WG wants Wayland enabled for alpha.
15:51:24 <adamw> cmurf: great.
15:52:02 <sumantro> everything was great , we a smooth onbaording session ! :) I propose we do it when we have about 10 to 12 new members joining!
15:52:46 <adamw> fwiw i did take a brief look at the F/OSS video conference software SUSE uses - https://github.com/jangouts/jangouts - but it looks like it needs a bit of setup at least
15:53:28 <sumantro> adamw I have look at it .
15:53:29 <adamw> (jangouts itself really just needs a static webpage, but the 'janus gateway' needs to be set up, i believe)
15:54:15 <sumantro> yes janus gateway needs to be set up!
15:54:25 <adamw> so aside from sumantro, anyone else here attend the meeting?
15:54:53 <adamw> once again that recording link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASQmkOrB_DY
15:57:10 <adamw> #info onboarding meeting went fine, sumantro is ready to run again whenever we have ~10 new members
15:57:18 <adamw> #topic Open floor
15:57:24 <adamw> so, any other business? that'll fit into 2 minutes?
15:57:33 <satellit> FYI win32diskimager.exe  writes functional live f25 USB's in windows 10
15:58:13 <adamw> thanks
15:58:50 <adamw> of course we have blocker review right after this, in #fedora-blocker-review
15:59:01 <adamw> so thanks everyone for coming, and i'll see you there in a minute :)
15:59:03 * adamw sets the fuse
16:00:11 <adamw> thanks everyone!
16:00:12 <adamw> #endmeeting