16:01:04 <paragan> #startmeeting FESCO (2016-05-27)
16:01:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri May 27 16:01:04 2016 UTC.  The chair is paragan. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2016-05-27)'
16:01:04 <paragan> #meetingname fesco
16:01:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
16:01:04 <paragan> #chair maxamillion dgilmore number80 jwb nirik paragan jsmith kalev sgallagh
16:01:04 <zodbot> Current chairs: dgilmore jsmith jwb kalev maxamillion nirik number80 paragan sgallagh
16:01:04 <paragan> #topic init process
16:01:09 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
16:01:10 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
16:01:18 <paragan> .hello pnemade
16:01:18 <maxamillion> .hello maxamillion
16:01:18 <zodbot> paragan: pnemade 'Parag Nemade' <pnemade@redhat.com>
16:01:21 <zodbot> maxamillion: maxamillion 'Adam Miller' <maxamillion@gmail.com>
16:01:28 <number80> .hello hguemar
16:01:29 <zodbot> number80: hguemar 'Haïkel Guémar' <karlthered@gmail.com>
16:02:04 <nirik> morning
16:02:10 <nirik> .hello kevin
16:02:11 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
16:02:43 <paragan> let's wait a minute for others to join
16:02:52 <kalev-afk> .hello kalev
16:02:53 <zodbot> kalev-afk: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <klember@redhat.com>
16:03:20 <jsmith> .hello jsmith
16:03:21 <zodbot> jsmith: jsmith 'Jared Smith' <jsmith.fedora@gmail.com>
16:03:27 <jsmith> Sorry I'm late... was wrapping up a phone call
16:03:47 <paragan> we are just starting now :)
16:03:55 <jsmith> On the bright side, I should be working from home again most Fridays, so I should be able to join the meetings much more easily
16:04:12 <paragan> cool
16:04:15 <paragan> #topic #1568  F25 Self Contained Changes
16:04:15 <paragan> .fesco 1568
16:04:15 <paragan> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1568
16:04:18 <zodbot> paragan: #1568 (F25 Self Contained Changes) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1568
16:04:43 <paragan> there are 3 Changes to discuss
16:05:01 <paragan> Replace udisks2 with storaged
16:05:01 <paragan> NSS enforces the system-wide crypto policy
16:05:01 <paragan> Java/OpenJDK enforces the system-wide crypto policy
16:05:12 * nirik is +1 on all
16:05:21 * kalev-afk is +1 on all as well.
16:05:23 <jsmith> I'm +1 on all three
16:05:29 <jsmith> No big surprises here
16:05:57 <paragan> I am also +1 for all
16:06:01 <maxamillion> +1 for all
16:06:08 <number80> +1
16:06:11 <sgallagh> I'm +1 for all, but I think udisks2 is a system-wide
16:06:18 <sgallagh> From the discussion on the list.
16:06:58 <paragan> Should we ask Change submitter to change it to system-wide?
16:07:05 <dgilmore> hi all
16:07:25 <jsmith> paragan: Yes, i think so
16:07:39 <dgilmore> udisks is system wide
16:07:58 <paragan> Okay then I will add that comment in the ticket
16:08:12 <dgilmore> +1 to the other two
16:08:58 <paragan> #agreed Approved all 3 Self Contained Changes (8, 0, 0)
16:09:18 <paragan> #topic #1573 Docker Layered Image maintainer guildelines, naming guidelines and review
16:09:18 <paragan> .fesco 1573
16:09:19 <paragan> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1573
16:09:21 <zodbot> paragan: #1573 (Docker Layered Image maintainer guildelines, naming guidelines and review) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1573
16:09:44 <maxamillion> o hai
16:09:45 <maxamillion> :)
16:10:18 <paragan> maxamillion, can you give update on this ticket?
16:11:05 <maxamillion> the ticket is up to date
16:11:13 <maxamillion> I'm not sure what you want in respect to an update
16:11:17 <nirik> There's still a fair number of fixmes... perhaps it should go for another run by devel list for more feedback?
16:11:18 <maxamillion> I took it to the devel list like requrested
16:11:51 <maxamillion> nirik: interest died out, I'm not sure what that'll do
16:12:10 <maxamillion> I can't even get the Cloud SIG (whom initiated the whole thing) to review it in detail
16:12:46 <nirik> well, sometimes different people are active or notice things on the list or have more time than they did when it first went by
16:13:23 * nirik isn't ready to approve it without re-reading it personally, but I guess we could try and do that next week or just bypass me if everyone else is comfortable with them
16:13:47 <maxamillion> no, it's fine ... I'll take it to the list again
16:14:07 * dgilmore wishes we had a review app, or reviews integrated in pkgdb
16:14:07 <paragan> maxamillion, thanks
16:14:13 <dgilmore> something other than bugzilla
16:14:22 <dgilmore> but that is a bit off topic for this
16:14:29 <maxamillion> this whole project is just wearing on me ... everyone seemed to want the layered image build system yesterday, but when it comes time to even just review documents (much less help with the work), everyone is nowhere to be found
16:14:52 * jsmith promises to read it once again, and be more prepared to discuss details next week
16:15:10 * nirik tired to send feedback
16:15:13 <maxamillion> alright, we can table this until next week and I'll kick off another round on devel list
16:15:15 <nirik> happy to try again
16:15:28 <nirik> dgilmore: yes, that would be nice. I am not sure where that is. ;(
16:15:40 <maxamillion> nirik: I don't mean specifically FESCo, I mean the community at large ... it's just been a frustrating experience
16:16:11 <paragan> Is there plans to form some Container committee?
16:16:35 <nirik> sorry, sometimes thats the way it goes. ;( And rest assured once we pass guidelines someone will complain that they don't like them. ;)
16:16:57 <dgilmore> paragan: as far as a container packaging committe equivilent of FPC?
16:17:21 <paragan> I saw some comments about this in ticket and devel discussion
16:17:22 <maxamillion> paragan: absolutely, I just need people who are willing and able to join up
16:17:46 <nirik> if we can find folks for that, I think it might be a good idea. I don't know if any/all of FPC would want to do that...
16:17:52 <dgilmore> paragan: if there is it will be up to FESCo to decide and charter it
16:18:07 <paragan> dgilmore, okay
16:18:41 <paragan> Let's visit this ticket next week, hope we will have some positive decision on it
16:19:05 <paragan> #agreed revisit this ticket next week.
16:19:26 <paragan> #topic #1576 Evaluate Workstation graphical upgrade Change status
16:19:26 <paragan> .fesco 1576
16:19:26 <paragan> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1576
16:19:27 <zodbot> paragan: #1576 (Evaluate Workstation graphical upgrade Change status) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1576
16:19:42 <paragan> I am not sure what more we can do here?
16:20:44 <jsmith> Yeah :-/
16:20:55 <dgilmore> say sure graphical updates are great?
16:21:02 <sgallagh> But are they?
16:21:02 <nirik> well, it sounds like we don't know what the plan really is. ;)
16:21:07 <nirik> we should figure that out.
16:21:11 <sgallagh> The Test Day found a bunch of issues
16:21:14 <nirik> kalev-afk: you have any info here?
16:21:18 <nirik> or adamw ?
16:21:25 <paragan> I think kalev-afk fixed them
16:21:47 <kalev-afk> yeah, we've been working through the issues found during the test day
16:21:53 <kalev-afk> very close to having all of them fixed
16:22:18 <nirik> is there a f23 update with avility to test?
16:22:21 <nirik> ability.
16:22:24 * nirik cannot type today
16:22:26 <kalev-afk> my personal plan is to enable it in F23 once kparal says it works fine for him :)
16:22:52 <kalev-afk> there's a copr with the latest git builds
16:22:53 <sgallagh> kalev-afk: Shortly after the 2038 disaster, then?
16:23:13 <kalev-afk> :)
16:23:30 <nirik> kalev-afk: yeah, but I thought it was hoped we could push one into real f23 that had a gsetting or something to turn it on...
16:23:45 <kalev-afk> yeah, after fixing up the bugs :)
16:23:48 <nirik> so we actually test the real thing we are going to enable and then push an update that enables it.
16:24:31 <kalev-afk> getting close to being able to put something to updates-testing
16:24:36 <nirik> if we are enabling this sometime after release we really need to make sure marketing/etc are on board
16:24:49 <kalev-afk> we wanted to fix up the test day bugs before that so that we wouldn't get everything reported all over again
16:24:54 <nirik> because if they tout it on release day and it's not there we look bad. ;(
16:25:00 * kalev-afk nods.
16:25:29 <kalev-afk> I'll talk to hughsie on Monday and figure out an action plan, I think we might be able to actually ship it on the release day actually
16:25:34 <nirik> kalev-afk: do you think it can be ready at release day?
16:25:37 <kalev-afk> we've been making good progres there
16:25:39 <kalev-afk> yeah
16:26:10 <kalev-afk> and I'll update the fesco ticket after talking to hughsie
16:26:38 <paragan> okay then we can revisit this ticket next week, is that okay with others?
16:26:38 <nirik> and to be clear, this just needs the f23 update right? there's nothing needing changing in 24?
16:26:46 <kalev-afk> yes, correct
16:27:02 <paragan> yes there is no change needed for f24
16:27:18 <nirik> yeah, so I would say we update ticket with 'tenative plan is to have it on release day' and update it monday with further details and revisit next meeting after that?
16:27:45 <paragan> looks good
16:27:48 <maxamillion> +1
16:27:52 <paragan> nirik, +1
16:27:52 <kalev-afk> sounds good
16:28:55 <jsmith> +1 from me
16:29:14 <sgallagh> +
16:29:16 <sgallagh> +1
16:29:36 <kalev-afk> +1
16:29:42 <paragan> I will mark this as "tenative plan is to have this change implemented on release day and update it monday with further details and revisit this ticket next meeting"
16:30:06 * nirik nods. +1
16:31:25 <paragan> #agreed tenative plan is to have this change implemented on release day and update it monday with further details and revisit this ticket next meeting (6, 0, 0)
16:31:50 <paragan> #topic #1578 F25 System Wide Change: Use /etc/repos.d as default reposdir
16:31:50 <paragan> .fesco 1578
16:31:50 <paragan> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1578
16:31:51 <zodbot> paragan: #1578 (F25 System Wide Change: Use /etc/repos.d as default reposdir) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1578
16:33:04 <paragan> As per the current Change information, I see "current default repository configuration directory /etc/yum.repos.d will still be supported by package managers but /etc/repos.d would be preferred default path."
16:34:09 <maxamillion> yeah, I'm not sure what the purpose of this is since the backwards compat thing will always exist ... is the goal here just to add a layer of distro-agnostic pathing?
16:34:30 <kalev-afk> as I understand it, the DNF team is fine with dropping this after the fedora-devel list discussion (and internal RHEL discussion)
16:34:33 <sgallagh> Well, I think they were asking for this to become the official path that would be in the guidelines, etc.
16:34:53 <sgallagh> But yeah, they can't really produce any benefit to *Fedora*.
16:34:57 <kalev-afk> they just haven't retracted the Change yet
16:36:28 <maxamillion> oh ok
16:36:49 <sgallagh> Proposal: FESCo doesn't see any value added to Fedora by this change. We don't have any problem with it landing as part of an upstream rebase, provided that backwards compatibility is maintained indefinitely. We will not be marketting this Change.
16:36:52 <maxamillion> so lets reach out to them and find out if this is still something they would like to do or if we can just archive it
16:36:55 <dgilmore> I am -1 to this
16:37:10 <dgilmore> the change taht is
16:37:14 <dgilmore> not the proposal
16:37:22 <maxamillion> +1 to sgallagh's proposal
16:37:29 <kalev-afk> I'd rather -1 it more strongly than sgallagh's proposal
16:37:58 <dgilmore> I would rather it not land upstream
16:37:59 <sgallagh> kalev-afk: I don't want to suggest that we can influence upstream.
16:38:16 <dgilmore> or if it does to not have it land in Fedora
16:38:50 <sgallagh> dgilmore: I don't see the harm, so long as we make it clear that Fedora packages will always use the existing approach.
16:38:52 <maxamillion> dgilmore: I think I'm missing something, what negative effect would it have on us so long as the backwards compat lives on?
16:39:12 <dgilmore> maxamillion: it makes things messy
16:39:13 <kalev-afk> can we table this for a week and I'll talk to jsilhan next week and see where they stand and if they want to retract the change proposal?
16:39:25 <paragan> +1 sgallagh proposal
16:39:32 <dgilmore> and at some point they will push to remove /etc/yum.repos.d
16:40:13 * nirik is back, Xwayland crashed on me and I had to reboot.
16:40:32 <maxamillion> nirik: welcome back
16:40:40 <jsmith> nirik: Sorry to hear that :-(
16:40:44 <paragan> Do others want to wait for a week so that kalev-afk can get more feedback on this ticket?
16:40:51 <nirik> yeah, I don't see any value here for Fedora. Happy to reject or wait a week.
16:40:52 <jsmith> That's fine with me
16:40:58 <dgilmore> I am fine with waiting
16:41:01 <maxamillion> dgilmore: yeah, that's fair but I don't think this is necessarily more messy than things we've already dealt with in the yum->dnf transition
16:41:26 * kalev-afk thinks it was a mistake too.
16:41:35 <dgilmore> maxamillion: perhaps not, I would rather avoid the churn
16:41:55 <kalev-afk> as I understand, RHEL plans on keeping the yum name too instead of dnf
16:42:00 <dgilmore> I really wish they had stuck with teh original plan, they their docs still say they are doing
16:42:07 * nirik also really doesn't like the dnf-1.1.9 strict groups change, but thats another bug I guess.
16:42:21 <nirik> kalev-afk: how... confusing.
16:42:47 <maxamillion> dgilmore: fair enough
16:43:56 <paragan> #agreed revisit this ticket next week so that kalev-afk can get feedback on this
16:44:25 <paragan> #topic #1579 F25 System Wide Change: Parallel Installable Debuginfo
16:44:26 <paragan> .fesco 1579
16:44:26 <paragan> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1579
16:44:27 <zodbot> paragan: #1579 (F25 System Wide Change: Parallel Installable Debuginfo) – FESCo - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1579
16:45:04 <sgallagh> +1
16:45:22 <kalev-afk> nice change I think
16:45:23 <kalev-afk> +1
16:45:38 <paragan> +1
16:45:40 <dgilmore> sure +1
16:45:40 <maxamillion> +1
16:45:45 <jsmith> +1 from me, if all the parties involved can agree on the changes necessary to make it work
16:46:37 <number80> +1
16:47:10 <nirik> +1
16:47:19 <paragan> #agreed F25 System Wide Change: Parallel Installable Debuginfo (8, 0, 0)
16:47:24 <nirik> means more things to distribute and sign, but oh well.
16:47:58 <paragan> yeah
16:48:03 <paragan> #topic Next week's chair
16:48:21 <paragan> Who want to chair for next week meeting?
16:48:24 <kalev-afk> I can do it
16:48:39 <paragan> Thanks kalev-afk
16:48:39 <maxamillion> thanks kalev-afk !
16:48:53 <sgallagh> I will probably miss the meeting the week after next, traveling.
16:49:05 <paragan> #info kalev to chair for next week meeting
16:49:18 <paragan> #topic Open Floor
16:49:27 <paragan> anything here to discuss?
16:49:39 <maxamillion> nothing from me
16:49:50 * jsmith has nothing else
16:50:13 <sgallagh> nada
16:50:43 <paragan> okay lets wait a minute and will close the meeting
16:50:49 <kalev-afk> could someone from releng email the devel list when the last F24 stable push is going to happen, please?
16:51:12 <dgilmore> kalev-afk: ?
16:51:26 * dgilmore will be missing the next two meetings
16:51:29 <kalev-afk> just a heads up that the freeze is coming up and when you guys plan on doing the last push
16:51:39 <dgilmore> kalev-afk: stable pushes are happening every day until freeze
16:51:48 <dgilmore> kalev-afk: same as we all ways do
16:51:55 <dgilmore> just after midnight monday
16:52:08 <kalev-afk> right, I know that, but other people might not :)
16:52:31 <dgilmore> it may be a bit later than normal as pbrobinson is on push duty next week and he will probably do it when he gets up tuesday
16:55:16 * paragan is closing the meeting now
16:55:22 <paragan> thanks everyone coming for this meeting
16:55:28 <paragan> #endmeeting