15:09:52 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig
15:09:52 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue May 17 15:09:52 2016 UTC.  The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:09:52 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:09:52 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:09:59 <rdieter> #topic roll call
15:10:00 <lupinix> .hello lupinix
15:10:03 <zodbot> lupinix: lupinix 'Christian Dersch' <lupinix@mailbox.org>
15:10:10 * jgrulich is present
15:10:14 <rdieter> hi all, friendly kde-sig meeting, who's present today?
15:10:20 * RaphGro listens
15:10:23 <than> present
15:12:18 <rdieter> #info rdieter lupinix jgrulich RaphGro than present
15:12:29 <rdieter> #chair lupinix jgrulich than RaphGro
15:12:29 <zodbot> Current chairs: RaphGro jgrulich lupinix rdieter than
15:12:31 <rdieter> #topic agenda
15:12:39 <rdieter> ok, what to discuss today?
15:12:53 * rdieter can give updates on kde-apps, kf5, plasma
15:13:24 <lupinix> nothing special here
15:15:38 <rdieter> alright, let's get started
15:15:45 <rdieter> #topic kde-apps, kf5, plasma updates
15:15:56 <rdieter> I've been working on those mostly over the past week (or 2?)
15:16:05 <rdieter> kde-apps-16.04.1 is all in f24 now
15:16:13 <rdieter> plasma-5.6.4 updates submitted for f24/f23
15:16:40 <rdieter> and I'm working my way through importing kf5-5.22.0 into rawhide (started yesterday)
15:16:55 * lupinix already received plasma 5.6.4 today
15:17:22 <lupinix> working fine right now, will test 1-2 more days before adding comment @bodhi
15:17:38 <rdieter> notable change in kfk5-5.22, is that kwayland is an official framework now
15:18:06 <rdieter> so soon folks will see kf5-kwayland-5.6.4 => kf5-kwayland-5.22.0 update coming soonish
15:18:32 <rdieter> but there should be no real changes, the code is essentially the same (or should be)
15:19:17 <rdieter> that's all, any questions, comments?
15:20:43 <tosky> ups, I forgot the meeting
15:20:50 <rdieter> #info tosky present
15:20:51 <rdieter> hi :)
15:21:25 <rdieter> repost for tosky:  kde-apps-16.04.1 is all in f24 now, plasma-5.6.4 updates submitted for f24/f23, and I'm working my way through importing kf5-5.22.0 into rawhide (started yesterday)
15:21:40 <rdieter> that's my own status report
15:21:42 <tosky> thanks
15:22:08 <Kevin_Kofler> We are now approximately at the point of the release cycle at which the default browser in Fedora 23 KDE was changed. So it is now time to change the default browser for Fedora 24 KDE to QupZilla. QupZilla 2.0.0 is stable now and has been tested successfully for several weeks.
15:22:38 <Kevin_Kofler> I will not accept the "it's too late in the release cycle" argument because it WASN'T too late to switch to Firefox last time.
15:23:01 <rdieter> seriously?
15:23:17 <rdieter> we already decided this, that we would wait for f24 (at least)
15:23:32 <jgrulich> Déjà vu
15:23:52 <Kevin_Kofler> I am mainly pointing out the blatantly obvious double standard.
15:24:04 <rdieter> whatever
15:24:07 <Kevin_Kofler> This is ridiculous.
15:24:10 <rdieter> closing this topic I guess
15:24:13 <rdieter> #topic open discussion
15:24:21 <rdieter> anything else for today?
15:24:37 <Kevin_Kofler> Why was it not too late to switch to Firefox, but is it now too late to switch to QupZilla?
15:24:46 <rdieter> (feel free to discuss qupzilla even, though I probably won't participate much)
15:24:54 <Kevin_Kofler> The argument to defer to F24 was that QupZilla 2.0.0 wasn't out at the time. It is now (and has been for several weeks).
15:25:10 <lupinix> @qupzilla: i'd propose it for f25 to give it some more time
15:25:19 <rdieter> true, qupzilla is finally testable now, that is much appreciated
15:25:30 <Kevin_Kofler> It had been testable for months.
15:25:41 <lupinix> 2.0.0 das some small but sometimes annoying bugs like the font settings bug
15:25:47 <Kevin_Kofler> It's not like 1.9.99 didn't work.
15:25:59 <lupinix> (yes, already fixed in upstream git)
15:26:21 <Kevin_Kofler> If that's the blocker, I can apply the fix, or even take a git snapshot altogether.
15:26:29 <rdieter> do you have any compelling reason that we change our minds, since the last time we discussed this?
15:26:51 <lupinix> it's just an example, not a blocker. in genereal i'd like to give it some more time before making it default
15:27:01 <lupinix> f25 shopuld be perfectly fine
15:27:04 <lupinix> *should
15:27:38 <Kevin_Kofler> That you are shipping a KDE spin where the probably most used application is a mixed XUL and GTK+ application, is that not compelling enough?
15:27:44 <tosky> no
15:27:56 <Kevin_Kofler> I should have put "KDE spin" within quotes. It's not a KDE spin.
15:28:27 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: nothing has changed in that regard, since the last discussion
15:28:37 <rdieter> it's the same now, as it was last time
15:28:57 <Kevin_Kofler> What has changed is that we have reached the point in the cycle at which the decision to switch TO Firefox was made.
15:29:00 <Kevin_Kofler> That's what has changed.
15:29:49 <Kevin_Kofler> But Firefox got a free pass out of any testing requirements and best practices, QupZilla does not get such preferential treatment. That's unfair.
15:30:10 <tosky> Firefox was already available for many years, it's not the same situation
15:30:14 <lupinix> yes, and i also disliked this decision. but i don't want to couple these two decisions directly
15:31:03 <RaphGro> .moar popcorn lupinix
15:31:05 <zodbot> here lupinix, have some more popcorn
15:31:07 <rdieter> tosky: +1, though I'd hoped that would've been obvious :(
15:31:14 <lupinix> :D
15:31:38 <Kevin_Kofler> Nobody had tested it shipped on the KDE spin, nobody had tested the changes that were rushed in late to make it the default browser (even on upgrades), etc.
15:32:08 <tosky> still on upgrades most people tested with firefox
15:32:21 <tosky> and it is less than comparing also with the changes of feature from the browser itself
15:32:30 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: I'd encourage you to start a new ml thread if you insist, but it's not a decision to be taken lightly or quickly here and now
15:32:35 <Kevin_Kofler> And also it was KNOWN to have showstopper issues that will likely NEVER get fixed (such as no support for KDE file dialogs). That was ignored entirely.
15:32:42 <RaphGro> personal impression: qupzilla js engine (f23/webkit) isn't that faster compared to firefox, tested with f*ceb**k.
15:33:25 <lupinix> RaphGro: you should compare the qtwebengine version
15:33:32 <RaphGro> true
15:33:43 <Kevin_Kofler> The QtWebKit version is not the same thing at all.
15:33:55 <Kevin_Kofler> You can get a QtWebEngine QupZilla for F23 from the QtWebEngine Copr.
15:34:02 <rdieter> RaphGro: <nod>, webengine is noticably better and faster (than webkit), there's no disputing that.
15:34:07 * RaphGro tries
15:34:39 <Kevin_Kofler> And really, the point of switching to QupZilla is not that it's faster (though it probably is!), but that it is a Qt app.
15:35:19 <danofsatx> howdy folks, finally have a stable connection at OSCON
15:35:41 <Kevin_Kofler> It doesn't have the amount of integration Konqueror had (kioslaves etc.), but it's the best thing available out there and much nicer than Firefox.
15:36:12 <rdieter> for *me*, the primary importance of a browser is it's functionality/realiability.  what toolkit/engine is used is of secondary important
15:36:15 <rdieter> importance
15:37:39 <Kevin_Kofler> And the Chromium engine isn't reliable?
15:37:59 <jgrulich> I voted for firefox because it's browser which most people would use/install anyway, qupzilla might be better integrated into KDE, but lacks functionality and people are not used to it
15:38:28 * pino|work still late :/
15:38:51 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: qtwebengine/qupzilla has far less real-world exposure and testing comparatively
15:38:52 <RaphGro> jgrulich, what func do you miss in qupzilla?
15:39:13 <rdieter> RaphGro: for me, extensions/addons
15:39:22 <RaphGro> +1
15:39:23 <jgrulich> RaphGro: plugins I use
15:39:31 <rdieter> #info pino|work present, hi
15:39:33 <Kevin_Kofler> jgrulich: Sigh… This is going to be the same disaster as with NM-gnome back then: people getting used to the temporary stopgap and putting unrealistic expectations on the native app that we've all been waiting for.
15:39:51 <pino|work> s/we/you/
15:40:09 * lupinix does not miss anything @qupzilla
15:40:13 <Kevin_Kofler> It's taken us 3 releases (!) to finally switch to KNM/plasma-nm.
15:40:24 <rdieter> patience grasshopper
15:40:55 <RaphGro> confirmed. qtwebengine feels faster
15:41:15 <Kevin_Kofler> F23 KDE should have shipped with Konqueror, it would have been one single release, and switching to QupZilla 2 now (with Konqueror as the fallback) would have been a no-brainer. Sigh…
15:41:27 <Kevin_Kofler> (or with no fallback if you hate Konqueror so much ;-) )
15:42:11 <pino|work> nobody is hating konqueror, unlike somebody else who is actively hating firefox
15:42:27 <Kevin_Kofler> At this time we should be done with the browser issue and already looking into replacing Anaconda with Calamares.
15:42:44 * danofsatx hates Firefox, but for reasons other than functionality.
15:42:54 <pino|work> Kevin_Kofler: beside that, would really be nice if you could *stop* this "us against them" thing you keep bringing forward again and again
15:43:02 <danofsatx> It's more accurate to say I greatly dislike Mozilla, but that's not the argument here.
15:43:16 <Kevin_Kofler> danofsatx: The freedom- and privacy-related issues? Those are also part of why I don't like Firefox.
15:43:29 <Kevin_Kofler> The fact that it looks&feels like from another planet is another one though.
15:43:31 <danofsatx> yes, those are two of the reasons
15:43:33 <RaphGro> jgrulich, firefox slows down mostly cause of laggy plugins+addons.
15:43:41 <Kevin_Kofler> But I've explained that often enough already. :-)
15:46:37 <Kevin_Kofler> pino|work: Is wanting a consistent desktop experience for Fedora KDE users and a KDE spin that actually showcases KDE technologies "us against them"?
15:46:51 <pino|work> Kevin_Kofler: the way you keep bringing the situation is
15:47:06 <rdieter> pino|work: +1
15:47:36 <rdieter> it's fine to advocate for integrated solutions, but then leave out the negative campaigning
15:53:01 <rdieter> so, looks like we've hit a lul, anything else to discuss today?
15:53:11 <lupinix> nothing else here
15:55:27 <danofsatx> nope. I haven't even finished the backlog yet.
15:56:12 <Kevin_Kofler> Oh, one more thing: Is there nobody wanting to comaintain Calamares?
15:56:46 <Kevin_Kofler> Am I the only one who cares about having a modern, Qt-based installer with a real upstream project behind it?
15:58:19 <danofsatx> no, but I can't devote any time to the argument at this point
15:58:20 <lupinix> Kevin_Kofler: in general yes, but I'll have a look at it before
15:58:54 <lupinix> we can discuss in #fedora-kde later
16:00:04 <Kevin_Kofler> Mainly now it'd need an update to 2.x, but I didn't get around to dealing with the impact on kpmcore and KPM.
16:02:27 <rdieter> k, let's wrap up the meeting, we're out of time
16:02:31 <rdieter> thanks everyone
16:02:37 <rdieter> #endmeeting