18:00:34 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2016-05-09)
18:00:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon May  9 18:00:34 2016 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:34 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2016-05-09)'
18:00:35 <mattdm> #meetingname council
18:00:35 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:00:37 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb cwickert langdon decause robyduck tatica
18:00:37 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert decause jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck tatica
18:00:40 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
18:00:46 <mattdm> hi everyone
18:00:49 <jkurik> .hello jkurik
18:00:50 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com>
18:00:54 <jkurik> hi mattdm
18:00:55 <decause> .hello decause
18:00:56 <zodbot> decause: decause 'Remy DeCausemaker' <decause@redhat.com>
18:01:02 <MarkDude> .hello markdude
18:01:02 <langdon> .hello langdon
18:01:04 <zodbot> MarkDude: markdude 'Mark Terranova' <doctorfoss@gmail.com>
18:01:05 <decause> #info cwickert will not be able to attend today
18:01:07 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
18:01:16 <decause> #info robyduck will be late today by a few minutes
18:01:45 <mattdm> unfortunate cwickert can't make it to represent ambassador/famsco perspective
18:01:48 <langdon> i may be a bit touch and go for the next 10m.. transitioning to stable location
18:02:44 <mattdm> okay. let's wait a few minutes for robyduck and jwb
18:02:51 <jwb> sorry, here
18:03:11 <mattdm> I'll go ahead with administrivia
18:03:15 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
18:03:30 <jzb> .hellomynameis jzb
18:03:31 <zodbot> jzb: jzb 'Joe Brockmeier' <jzb@redhat.com>
18:03:32 <mattdm> #info this an open floor meeting
18:03:49 <mattdm> #info the big obvious topic is finalizing the top-level FY17 agenda
18:04:12 <mattdm> anything else we want to make sure we touch on today?
18:04:54 <MarkDude> \o
18:05:05 <mattdm> MarkDude?
18:05:22 * MarkDude wanted to ask about Fedora's growth model
18:05:39 <mattdm> in the context of the budget or in general?
18:06:01 <MarkDude> As in what are the plans. The feedback I got after asking fellow Fedorans about my questions (and others) on budget
18:06:21 <decause> MarkDude: growth of budget?
18:06:48 <MarkDude> #info Growth Model for the Fedora Project. What is it? Do we have one? There was a fair amount of feedback stating that without specifcs. There is NO plan
18:07:01 <decause> #undo
18:07:01 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by MarkDude at 18:06:48 : Growth Model for the Fedora Project. What is it? Do we have one? There was a fair amount of feedback stating that without specifcs. There is NO plan
18:07:10 <decause> I don't think that is a fair statement MarkDude
18:07:22 <MarkDude> Not just we plan to grow, but in terms of budget, what is the Plan?
18:07:23 <decause> I've given plenty of detail on the model for growing the budget
18:07:33 <MarkDude> In terms of project, what is the plan to grow?
18:07:45 <jwb> we are not going to cover that in today's meeting
18:07:52 <jwb> we can discuss it in a future meeting though
18:07:56 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
18:07:57 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
18:07:58 <MarkDude> Minus a plan to actually grow, there is no plan. Should I follow up on list?
18:08:05 <MarkDude> ML?
18:08:16 <mattdm> council-discuss, or marketing
18:08:28 * MarkDude did not think we could do a meeting, just how would Council like me to do it? eof
18:08:29 <MarkDude> :)
18:08:44 <mattdm> MarkDude: council-discuss is probably the most appropriate
18:08:46 <MarkDude> Will do FPL.
18:09:01 <MarkDude> Ty for listening :)
18:09:41 <mattdm> yeah I have some more on this but let's get to the budget. see you on this list
18:10:02 <mattdm> #topic FY17 budget discussion: regional allocations
18:10:52 <mattdm> so... based on the flat budget for last year and the allocations we've set aside for Flock, FUDCons, FADs, and Outreachy....
18:11:03 <mattdm> we have $73500 earmarked for regional spending
18:11:11 <mattdm> as a conversation-starter, I posted
18:11:15 <mattdm> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/2RX7XD2G36MVW5Y6EVFDMDOTZLMWLHQB/
18:11:23 <mattdm> #info strawman regional budget division
18:11:38 <mattdm> and there was some (but not a huge amount) of followup discussion
18:11:59 <mattdm> where do we want to go from there?
18:12:09 * decause has been in the loop on this for some time, and is +1 on the scenario, as stated in the thread.
18:13:06 * robyduck also agrees, also the bonus is a good idea and balances it all out
18:13:16 <decause> robyduck: yes, def agreed
18:14:03 <jwb> i'm ok with the caveats i listed on list
18:14:33 <jwb> though it will be difficult to approve this given our main ambassador representative is absent today because of real-life issues
18:14:39 <mattdm> okay, cool, that seems like general consensus (at least of those of us here and on the list posts)
18:14:45 <mattdm> yeah that.
18:15:01 <mattdm> But let's talk about the caveats...
18:15:27 <mattdm> because I think that needs to be as concrete as possible.
18:15:45 <mattdm> What more _exactly_ do we need, by when, and with what level of detail?
18:16:10 <MarkDude> \o
18:16:20 <mattdm> I think decause has said this before, but let's spell it out
18:16:40 <mattdm> MarkDude: quick thing or long thing? If it's quick, go, if not, hold for decause?
18:16:45 <MarkDude> Places like APAC have set limit for events of $100, most countries can do that, some places have higher cost of living. The region likely needs some help on this. Most likely Cristoph could look at this. He can likely offer the nuances needed (if any.) He was already gonna check in with them (as I understood on other stuff.)
18:16:46 <MarkDude> eof
18:17:18 <mattdm> MarkDude: quick, then. thanks. :)
18:17:23 <decause> MarkDude: this sounds like an APAC spending policy for Ambassadors, not a regional allocation issue.
18:17:41 <decause> MarkDude: yes, talk to cwickert as a good next step
18:17:45 <decause> as for mattdm
18:17:49 <decause> 's question
18:17:52 <decause> about what exactly
18:18:16 <MarkDude> (Maybe, but having Cristop look into it, gets a worksforme.)
18:18:18 <decause> needs to be reported
18:18:40 <decause> the dates on the calendar may need to be adjusted a bit for this year (we are just approving the budget hopefully soon)
18:18:42 <decause> but
18:19:06 <decause> #link https://budget.fedoraproject.org/#budgetprocess
18:19:26 <decause> this is the timeline for quarterly reports
18:19:48 <mattdm> I guess the question is: what are the required components of a proposed regional budget?
18:20:12 <decause> mattdm: I would point to the EMEA spreadsheets as a good model:
18:20:14 <mattdm> How specific does it need to be, and what justification/connection-to-mission does each line item need?
18:21:09 <mattdm> #info decause notes that EMEA budget at https://pagure.io/fedora-budget/raw/master/f/FY17/proposedannualbudgets/emea/FedoraEMEABudgetFY2017.ods provides good model
18:21:32 <jwb> i feel like we're repeating ourselves here
18:22:10 <mattdm> so, that has: 1. all planned events listed (no hold-back for later events) and 2. actually no link to justification
18:22:39 <mattdm> 1. *Should* there be room for a holdback, or should that be kept centrally?
18:23:05 <mattdm> and 2. While I'd like to see the line-item justifications, I guess we are not requiring them this year?
18:23:18 <langdon> i do not think there should be a hold back.. a budget is a plan.. it is changeable.. allocate it for what should happen, change it every qtr
18:23:50 <decause> mattdm: I think that the format/elements of the EMEA proposal are good (Itemized, Categorized, quarter-ized) but they are missing the column that connects it back to a project-mission (because there wasn't a requirement for that last year)
18:24:23 <mattdm> langdon: sounds good to me
18:24:26 <decause> APAC did a good job of linking to the ticket and event reports in their report spreadsheet
18:24:52 <decause> mattdm: I'm with langdon, yeah
18:25:02 <mattdm> as I said on the mailing list, I think it's probably okay to have a single item for LUGs, meetups, and low-budget local fests without naming them in advance
18:25:09 <langdon> if we find, in future years, that there is more "unexpected money needs" then the council should do a hold back that is allocated as those things come up
18:25:18 <mattdm> okay, sounds good.
18:25:18 <MarkDude> +1 for a bit of holdback.
18:25:40 <mattdm> I am therefore done with the repeating-ourselves section and jwb can wake up now :)
18:25:49 <jwb> i'm awake
18:25:51 <decause> :P
18:26:04 <mattdm> whew :)
18:26:29 <mattdm> so, looking back at the budget process page...
18:27:04 <mattdm> next steps are:
18:27:14 <mattdm> 1. We approve this top level allocation
18:27:27 <mattdm> 2. Back to the regions, who will come up with quarterly splits
18:27:54 <mattdm> 3. Which we will approve via lazy consensus
18:28:03 <mattdm> does that sound right?
18:28:08 <jwb> yes
18:28:11 <decause> nod
18:28:13 <mattdm> and if #2 doesn't happen, not approved.
18:28:14 <robyduck> yeh
18:28:16 <jkurik> yes, it does
18:28:29 <mattdm> whoo I'm gonna retype that as an agreed hold on...
18:28:37 <decause> :)
18:28:39 <langdon> one q
18:29:02 <mattdm> #agreed Next steps: 1. We approve this top level allocation 2. Back to the regions, who will come up with quarterly splits 3. Which we will approve via lazy consensus
18:29:04 <langdon> 4. allocation for following qtr does not happen until prior qtr results are in?
18:29:05 <mattdm> langdon: go
18:29:13 <langdon> or something..
18:29:20 <langdon> or are we not there yet?
18:29:47 <mattdm> something like that, yes - decause, do you have a specific way you want to handle that?
18:30:07 <decause> langdon: the idea was that reconciliation happens quarterly, yes
18:30:09 <decause> so
18:30:29 <mattdm> #info note that FY17 Q1 is actually _almost done_: March, April, May
18:30:41 <decause> if a region has not spent it's quarterly, or reported quarterly, then afer a reasonable amount of time it is then allocated centrally
18:31:09 <langdon> btw .. i agree with the #agreed :)
18:31:27 <decause> we want to encourage spending too, because I  have been having a lot of heartburn with "last minute" expenditures in Q4 that didn't make it into the books in time, and therefor are coming out of FY17 budget
18:31:30 <mattdm> and that central reallocation _can_ be relocated back for special regional requests if need be
18:31:35 <decause> mattdm: yes
18:31:36 <robyduck> decause: can you define _reasonable amount of time_ ?
18:32:07 <mattdm> robyduck: +1 -- let's make that explicit
18:32:43 <decause> robyduck: I'd like to do less than one month, or before halfway to the next quarter on the far end possibly
18:32:52 <Southern_Gentlem> 6weeks?
18:32:54 <mattdm> It's probably also a good time to add:
18:33:00 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reimbursements
18:33:11 <decause> yes, the reimbursement guidelines are 2 weeks
18:33:16 <decause> 14 days
18:33:22 <mattdm> AND can't be out of quarter.
18:33:48 <robyduck> but sometimes are (or were)
18:34:28 <mattdm> later than 14 days _might_ be bent, but out of quarter is really out of luck
18:34:45 <robyduck> decause: I think 30% of the quarter could be a reasonable amount of time then. 4 weeks.
18:35:08 <Southern_Gentlem> ??
18:35:15 <mattdm> Southern_Gentlem: yes?
18:35:40 <mattdm> This isn't something we can negotiate. If I turn in my own travel expenses in the wrong quarter, I don't get reimbursed
18:35:46 <Southern_Gentlem> so if an event is on the last day of the quarter there will be no reenbursements?
18:36:11 <decause> as an addition to the budget reporting, I think i want to put a limit on Q4 spending much earlier than we have traditionally
18:36:26 <jwb> Southern_Gentlem: i would think from a budget perspective you would allocate funds for such an event in the following quarter
18:36:26 <decause> we had lots of stuff slip past the deadline, and it was sometimes due to vendor error, not our ambassadors
18:36:33 <decause> I want to protect us against that next year
18:36:38 <Southern_Gentlem> Reimbursements
18:36:41 <robyduck> decause: +1
18:37:08 <decause> #action deause add a "spending deadline" for Q4 to budget timeline
18:38:07 <decause> this was something that I learned after getting deeper involved in budget, after the Budget.next proposal had been created.
18:38:23 <decause> iterative policy++
18:38:41 <MarkDude> We have not done this budget yet, and we are using it as guide for next? Squeezing timeframe from both sides is demotivational for having events. Folks dont know about funding this year, and have to plan next?
18:38:51 <decause> I'm +1 on robyduck's proposal
18:38:52 <MarkDude> The whole budget thing is flawed, but, having stated that, I can shut up after making clear one thing: the Council and ALL folks involved are making great efforts on making hard decisions. They are doing as best can be done under these mercurial times. (/me is looking forward to a bigger budget in Oct. Apologies for being so 'uppity' over this.) eof
18:39:35 <jzb> hey all
18:39:52 <jzb> I just want to correct something about how quarters work
18:39:53 <jzb> if i may
18:39:55 <jwb> MarkDude: i don't foresee a bigger budget for FY18.  FY17/18 is when we build our case for a bigger budget for FY19
18:39:56 <decause> MarkDude: I'm with your sentiment about the squeezing of timelines, but ambassdors this year approved their spendign at the end when they knew it would impact next year's budget, and that is normal.
18:39:59 <mattdm> jzb yes please
18:40:13 <decause> it's not that they cannot spend money, it's jsut that it would be coming from the next quarter
18:40:14 * mattdm is not a budget-controlly person
18:40:30 <jzb> If you are doing an event that falls in the last two weeks of the quarter, it's going to hit our books in the next quarter
18:40:36 <jzb> do not worry about that.
18:40:40 <decause> yes, this ^
18:40:53 <jwb> jzb: but they should allocate their budget accordingly
18:40:57 <jwb> it is not difficult to do so
18:41:01 <jzb> jwb: ish?
18:41:26 <jzb> jwb: I'm mostly concerned about the budget being tracked appropriately and expenses filed on time.
18:41:42 <jzb> but yes, for sanity purposes if you do travel or something the last two weeks of Q1, for instance
18:41:51 <jzb> it's going to rack up internally against Fedora budget for Q2
18:41:54 <jwb> jzb: sure.  i mean, if airfare is involved, it can be allocated and expensed in one quarter, and the hotel and whatever for the actual even can be allocated and expensed in the following quarter
18:41:55 <jzb> and so on into infinity
18:42:00 <jzb> jwb: correct
18:42:06 <mattdm> jzb thanks for clarifying
18:42:08 <decause> jwb: yes
18:42:08 <MarkDude> jzb: +1
18:42:09 <jwb> people just have to think
18:42:16 <jzb> but the big thing is the 14 day deadline
18:42:24 <jzb> get your expenses in w/in the 14 days.
18:42:28 <decause> yes, and the event report to go with it too
18:42:32 <jzb> and that yes.
18:42:33 <decause> 14 days to report and file
18:42:36 <jzb> All the things needed for that. :-)
18:43:04 <jzb> if you do all those things, I will do everything I can to make sure all valid expenses are reimbursed.
18:43:13 <decause> which was our previous policy too, and we're going to help support those with defined roles (and help reporting from commops)
18:43:54 <jzb> but I wouldn't sweat so much the "if I'm doing an event that falls within 72 hours of a quarter end, but I'm traveling over the international date line..."
18:44:06 <mattdm> So, if expenses in the last two weeks of a quarter are actually next quarter, and with a two-week limit on reimbursements... that means that everything for a quarter by definition should be tied up at the beginning of the next one.
18:44:14 <decause> #cornercases #youknowyoureanengineerwhen
18:44:19 <decause> jzb++
18:44:25 <MarkDude> 3 weeks might be more reasonable, some regions have meetings 2 weeks apart at times. 4-5 may not be needed, but APAC meetings are not always every week. (For cases of budget having changed if even $10.)
18:44:49 <jwb> MarkDude: no, it is 14 days.
18:44:59 <Southern_Gentlem> ok settle the budget # so we can proceed
18:45:06 <jwb> people want transparency, this is literally how we do budgeting internally.  14 days is it.
18:45:20 <MarkDude> That would mean regions cant skip a meeting (at least in theory.)
18:45:35 <mattdm> MarkDude: or they need some non-meeting-centric method for approval
18:45:42 <jzb> mattdm: that
18:45:52 <mattdm> and related to that, and to Southern_Gentlem's point....
18:45:56 <MarkDude> worksforme
18:46:08 <mattdm> With cwickert out today we can't finalize this
18:46:25 <mattdm> but I'll file a ticket immediately for formal apporoval
18:46:36 <Southern_Gentlem> vote on mailing list?
18:46:36 <mattdm> and hopefully he can chime in quickly
18:47:00 <decause> #action decause post finalized "big numbers" to the budget.fp.o website when they are approved
18:47:00 <mattdm> Southern_Gentlem: basically :)
18:47:05 <decause> #undo
18:47:05 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by decause at 18:47:00 : decause post finalized "big numbers" to the budget.fp.o website when they are approved
18:47:18 <decause> #action decause post finalized regional numbers to the budget.fp.o website when they are approved
18:47:19 <mattdm> #action mattdm to file ticket to finalize allocation based on strawman post
18:47:32 <mattdm> whoo. okay, anything else on budget for now?
18:47:46 <langdon> mattdm, are your numbers from the email in the spreadsheet somewhere? do i believe your math? :)
18:47:59 <decause> langdon is our backstop against bad math
18:48:07 <decause> :)
18:48:15 <mattdm> langdon: they are almost literally back of an envelope
18:48:22 <mattdm> so double check me if you like :)
18:48:34 * langdon mutters "oops"
18:49:01 <decause> langdon: I think adding them to the spreadsheet is a good idea
18:49:25 <decause> you wanna do that, or should I?
18:49:28 <langdon> decause, yeah... yeah.. in progress
18:49:32 <decause> langdon++
18:49:35 <decause> thank you much :)
18:50:01 <mattdm> #topic Open Floor
18:50:03 <decause> #action decause queue up a beverage of choice for langdon at next conference you see him at
18:50:10 <mattdm> I want to note
18:50:14 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/57
18:50:18 <MarkDude> langdon++
18:50:18 <zodbot> MarkDude: Karma for langdon changed to 7 (for the f23 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:50:19 <mattdm> #info Seeking Council feedback/input on draft third party software policy
18:50:33 <mattdm> this is _really long_ and I haven't had time to read the latest version
18:50:54 <mattdm> but let's please all do. :)
18:51:12 <decause> #action decause review draft third party software policy
18:51:41 <mattdm> anyone have anything else?
18:52:08 <MarkDude> "Provide Fedora repositories that contain software packaged in ways other than RPM." Cool :D
18:52:25 <mattdm> MarkDude: yeah, brave new world!
18:52:39 <mattdm> i'm going to end the meeting in 3.2.1....
18:52:40 <decause> I wanna say that I'm pleased with what we've got going on here with budget
18:52:42 <mattdm> 3...
18:52:42 <robyduck> no, nothing else
18:52:46 <mattdm> decause++
18:52:48 <mattdm> 2...
18:52:53 <mattdm> 1...
18:52:55 <mattdm> #endmeeting