16:01:02 <stickster> #startmeeting workstation
16:01:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  3 16:01:02 2014 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at
16:01:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:14 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
16:01:14 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
16:01:22 <stickster> #topic Roll call!
16:01:56 <stickster> .hellomynameis pfrields
16:01:56 <stickster> Hm, I thought zoddie responded to that
16:02:07 <rdieter> slim shady, here
16:02:10 <stickster> :-)
16:02:15 <stickster> Hi Rex!
16:02:16 * mclasen is here
16:02:30 <rdieter> stickster: i thought so too
16:02:59 <kalev> hello hello!
16:02:59 <zodbot> stickster: Something blew up, please try again
16:03:03 * otaylor is here
16:03:07 * ryanlerch is here
16:03:08 <stickster> Aha.
16:03:35 <stickster> #chair rdieter mclasen kalev otaylor ryanlerch
16:03:35 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mclasen otaylor rdieter ryanlerch stickster
16:04:00 * stickster gives 1 more minute before marking tardies and sending people to the principal's office down the hall :-)
16:04:35 <jwb> oh, i'm here
16:05:02 <mclasen> kalev is on his way
16:05:07 <kalev> kalev is long here!
16:05:13 <stickster> #chair jwb
16:05:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: jwb kalev mclasen otaylor rdieter ryanlerch stickster
16:05:16 <mclasen> ha
16:05:21 <stickster> Okey dokey, let's go!
16:05:27 <stickster> #topic Final release collateral
16:05:46 <stickster> So, the final F21 release announcement text is found here:
16:06:36 <stickster> I've entered the text we discussed on-list earlier in the cycle, but it's still open for a day or two for fixes or edits.  This will be used for the mailing list announcement as well as the Fedora Magazine post where we'll direct traffic from social media
16:07:06 <cschalle> sorry for being slightly late
16:07:11 <stickster> #chair cschalle
16:07:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle jwb kalev mclasen otaylor rdieter ryanlerch stickster
16:07:15 <stickster> np, hi Christian
16:07:21 <stickster> #link
16:07:51 <stickster> #info The release announcement can still be edited through ~Thursday end of day
16:08:09 <stickster> #info There is also a screenshot library at
16:08:37 <mclasen> stickster: if you want nitpicking, "extremely high resolution displays" sounds a bit over the top
16:08:48 <mclasen> "high resolution displays" would suffice
16:09:04 * stickster lives in 1998 and 3200x1800 seems extremely awesome
16:09:19 <kalev> it's like cool kids having VGA while everyone else still had EGA
16:09:22 <stickster> mclasen: Feel free to strike that on the wiki, it's fine :-)
16:09:55 <otaylor> Does "A simple toggle for system keybindings in both the Terminal and GNOME desktop overview that helps you search for Terminals by name. " make sense to people?
16:10:45 <stickster> It works, but I don't know that it's super-compelling compared to the other stuff.
16:10:45 <mclasen> split it into 2 points
16:11:02 <mclasen> those are 2 unrelated things
16:11:04 <stickster> Splitting might help it seem more relevant.
16:11:06 <stickster> yeah
16:11:26 <stickster> Then that's just a bad rewrite that I did two months ago and no one bothered to review/correct it on the list ;-)
16:12:00 <ryanlerch> what is that feature? that might make a good magazine stickster ?
16:12:07 <ryanlerch> *magazine artilce
16:12:20 <stickster> ryanlerch: It very well might, clearly I didn't understand it well enough to write it correctly.
16:12:24 <stickster> otaylor: Will you edit on wiki?
16:12:38 <otaylor> ryanlerch: There's search in the overview for terminals by title, but I don't know what the rest of that point is about
16:12:52 <otaylor> stickster: if mclasen knows what the two points were, he's a better candidate for editing
16:12:55 <stickster> sure
16:13:08 <mclasen> one point is 'toggle for all keybindings in the terminal'
16:13:16 <mclasen> the other point is 'search for terminals in the overview'
16:13:21 <stickster> mclasen: Is that something about switching keybindings systemwide between, like, vi and Emacs style? Or something different?
16:13:22 <mclasen> but that might not be new in f21 ?
16:13:52 <otaylor> mclasen: I think the terminal search is new .... I certainly noticed it first when I upgraded my laptop
16:13:55 <ryanlerch> mclasen, everything is new in Fedora Workstation :)
16:14:04 <mclasen> stickster: it is about 'Enable Shortcuts' in the 'Shortcuts' tab in the terminal preferences
16:14:12 <stickster> cschalle_: Was that keybinding thing really new?
16:14:12 <mclasen> feature request by langdon, in fact
16:14:22 <langdon> mclasen, lol
16:14:35 * langdon grumbles that i might now need to write the article
16:14:54 <otaylor> Maybe not material for for the release announcement?
16:15:08 <cschalle_> stickster, let me check
16:15:15 <stickster> otaylor: definitely we want the terminal search part
16:15:38 <langdon> stickster, cschalle_ mclasen i think the dealio was that you wanted to flip the set on / off at once.. because you sometimes need one key for one operation.. but then want the bindings all back
16:15:40 * mclasen splits it up
16:15:59 <stickster> #action mclasen fixing the terminal points in the announcement
16:16:00 <mclasen> langdon: yes, thats what you asked for, and thats what you got
16:16:18 <mclasen> ...and now its also what we advertise
16:16:20 <langdon> mclasen, lol
16:16:22 <stickster> cool
16:16:31 <cschalle_> stickster, langdon, mclasen: I think the reference here is the item from the tasklist called 'Terminal - Allow disabling all keybindings in one go' which was a patch mclasen committed some Months ago
16:16:57 <stickster> yeah, sounds like we all understand it now, thanks for rewrite mclasen
16:17:07 <langdon> cschalle_, but it is new to f21, right?
16:17:11 <cschalle_> langdon, yes
16:17:35 <stickster> So that plus the search are both relevant and worth noting in the announcement as good examples of helpful bits for devs
16:17:36 <mclasen> 'Toolkit integration' - not sure we want to keep that in there, since the adwaita-qt theme hasn't landed yet
16:17:57 <cschalle_> yeah, we need to push that to F22 unfortunately
16:18:10 * mclasen edited the tasklist accordingly, before the meeting
16:18:12 <jwb> i actually think it's not unfortunate
16:18:34 <jwb> having the theme is great, but it isn't exactly the end goal either.  maybe f22 will be able to land something a bit more
16:18:45 <stickster> cschalle_: And I think there's a FIXME noted for the tool that writes USB boot media. I believe we're talking about GNOME Disks restore function, right?
16:19:10 <stickster> a la
16:19:12 <mclasen> we do have a number of other qt integration tasks on the list for f22, indeed
16:20:05 <stickster> mclasen: We can move the toolkit integration to the 'coming soon' list in the announcement
16:20:21 <mclasen> oops, too late
16:20:23 <cschalle_> stickster, no, its the usb-creator tool as it is available on all platforms
16:20:24 * mclasen already nixed it
16:20:32 <stickster> cschalle_: liveusb-creator?
16:20:34 <mclasen> can you bring it back, stickster ?
16:20:36 <cschalle_> stickster, yes
16:20:48 <stickster> mclasen: I can, don't worry :-)
16:20:50 <cschalle_> stickster, because my hope is that for FW22 that is the download we offer, not an iso
16:20:52 <stickster> #action stickster Bring back part of toolkit interation into coming soon list
16:21:03 <stickster> mclasen: And I think the bit on HTML5 web services still applies. I'll do a rewrite there.
16:21:07 <rdieter> agreed re "toolkit integration", i'll see about poking mbriza for a more detailed status on those items (the tasklist on that is a bit sparse and vague atm)
16:21:44 <mclasen> true
16:21:47 <stickster> #undo
16:21:47 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by stickster at 16:20:52 : stickster Bring back part of toolkit interation into coming soon list
16:21:47 <stickster> #action stickster Bring back part of toolkit integration into coming soon list
16:21:56 <stickster> Thanks zoddie ;-)
16:23:33 <stickster> OK, anything more on the announcement? It's still a wiki, so my plan is to come back to it on Friday and lock it down with jzb and rest of Marketing.
16:24:48 <mclasen> rdieter: yeah, I haven't talked to him about the other tasklist items yet - still focused on finishing adwaita
16:25:34 <stickster> One more note....
16:26:18 <stickster> #info If you make screenshots for the library, downscale your display to an appropriate level, e.g. 1280x800 -- HiDPI will leave illegible thumbnails for most websites'
16:26:54 <stickster> Oh, two more notes.
16:27:15 <stickster> #info Staging website is up now, and looking very good. Text is locked, no edits accepted currently.
16:27:20 <stickster> #link
16:27:54 <stickster> #info Thank you to Websites and Design teams for great work!
16:28:04 <stickster> Anything else on release collateral before we move on?
16:28:45 <stickster> #topic F22 Workstation and beyond...
16:29:02 <stickster> #link
16:29:14 <rdieter> stickster: where's the best place to give feedback on ?  (imo, the photo band with "Freedom. Friends..." is too big)
16:30:13 <stickster> rdieter: I guess you could do it on websites trac, but that seems bikesheddy to me
16:30:20 * mclasen ponders if ' more focused' sounds a tad defensive
16:30:48 <kalev> one thing I think is important for F22 would be to put some effort in the livecd creator and advertise it more, like cschalle_ mentioned above
16:31:17 <kalev> right now we basically just dump an iso file on an user and expect them to know what to do with it
16:31:28 <ryanlerch> where did that f22 tasklist come from?
16:31:52 <stickster> kalev: So perhaps we could integrate links to the creator into the download site
16:32:02 <cschalle_> ryanlerch, its been there since the tasklist was created, it basically contains items that had been brought up but not prioritized for F21
16:32:47 <cschalle_> ryanlerch, that said I doubt we be able to cover everything there or I don't even know if we want to prioritize everything there, so the F22 (and F23) list are a bit tentative atm
16:33:21 <cschalle_> ryanlerch, which I guess is what this point on the agenda is about, starting to filter and update the F22 (and to some degree the F23 list)
16:33:31 <stickster> cschalle_: ISTM we should ask what the broad themes/priorities are for F22 and how each of those items fits into that
16:33:43 <rdieter> i'd assume anything listed there without someone already working on it... is already implicitly (very) tentative
16:33:52 <ryanlerch> cschalle_, thanks -- do we have a higher goal for the release though?
16:34:07 <ryanlerch> ah stickster beat me to it
16:34:12 <stickster> *jinx!
16:34:38 <mclasen> rdieter: even the things with somebody listed are somewhat tentative - those assignments need to be revisited...
16:34:48 <rdieter> mclasen: that too, of course
16:34:50 <cschalle_> well I want us to 'complete' our developer oriented features, but maybe a new effort we should try to rally around which is not on the list is improving our battery life storey
16:34:53 <cschalle_> story even
16:35:19 <otaylor> At some point, we'll have to figure out how much we want to prioritize Wayland ... that's a big sink of work (and also of attention for users switching to it)
16:35:51 <stickster> A theme might be to support one or more user (where the user is a key developer type) stories from start to finish, e.g. getting tools, making something, making it available.
16:36:56 <stickster> Another one might be getting Wayland closer to everyuser-ready... the idea is not to be overly exclusive, just make sure we have a good focus
16:36:56 <otaylor> stickster: mm, currently we don't have much work going on on the real *doing work* side of the developer story ... that's a bit outside the scope of the workstation at the moment
16:38:30 <stickster> That's fair, if we still have underlying platform problems to solve. How about some input on what the larger themes should be?
16:39:54 <stickster> Hopefully this means everyone's pondering... ;-)
16:39:56 <otaylor> I do think prioritizing not having wayland floating around forever as the future is probably a good idea, though it won't make a ton of difference to users
16:40:14 <cschalle_> stickster, I am not sure I can come up with a good suggestion myself for a specific developer type to target for F22; I mean I think the battery life issue is crucial for devs, but of course it is in no way limited to a certain type or to devs for that matter
16:40:23 <ryanlerch> stickster, i's also like to maybe open a dialog with our developer-type users and see what kinds of things they are looking for...
16:40:47 <stickster> #idea Make Wayland more ready for everyday use
16:41:25 <ryanlerch> maybe ask them things like what kinds of extenstions they use in gnome-shell and trying to identify what a lot of developers frequently add on to their systems
16:42:17 <stickster> ryanlerch: That sounds like a good idea, if we're prepared to do something with that feedback -- would the goal be to influence the defaults we ship?
16:42:27 <cschalle_> I agree about Wayland, but we should make sure to try to have 1 or 2 Wayland enabled features, ie things we are able to do due to Wayland which users directly benefit from. A transparent and painless switch to Wayland is important for a lot of reasons, but not directly 'useful' to our users
16:43:25 <otaylor> the only direct feature I know of that users can possibly get f22 timesclae is mixed hi-dpi
16:43:48 <mclasen> I've been meaning to ask you about that - do we have any work towards that somewhere ?
16:44:18 <otaylor> I suppose we could also put work into weston-style overlay usage, which improves efficiency a bit, but it's not going to be dramatic (and a lot of work)
16:44:29 <mclasen> its something that is coming up frequently here in the office with hi-dpi laptops and external monitors
16:45:25 <stickster> #idea Consult developer target folks about needs, e.g. g-s extensions frequently used
16:45:31 <otaylor> mclasen: I'm not remembering any actual work - various discussion. drago01 - did you look at it at all?
16:46:14 <drago01> otaylor: no only had a few discussions with you and/or ebassi on how to implement it ... don't have any code though
16:47:46 <stickster> #idea Better toolkit smoothing, since we already have that on the list and clearly wanted a better story for F21 :-)
16:48:25 <drago01> otaylor: one other feature we can do for wayland is hidpi for "old" apps
16:48:38 <stickster> drago01: That's an interesting one for sure.
16:48:58 <drago01> (I even had some code for this at some point)
16:49:06 <drago01> its somewhere in bugzilla (unfinished)
16:49:42 <otaylor> drago01: You mean 2x upscaling for Xwayland apps that don't advertise hidpi support?
16:49:46 <mclasen> one question I have about f22 is timeframe - we have until february to work on features ?
16:49:49 <drago01> otaylor: yes
16:50:39 <stickster> mclasen: The schedule hasn't quite been set yet in FESCo:
16:50:40 <kalev> fesco hasn't decided on the new schedule yet
16:50:57 <kalev> but it should get finalized soon
16:51:11 <mclasen> where 'not quite' == 'not at all' ?
16:51:14 <kalev> most people seem to want to go back to may / october schedule
16:51:18 <kalev> yes
16:51:18 <stickster> #info Note that FESCo has not yet set schedule for F22
16:51:38 <kalev> so hopefully we'll have a new release in May, but still uncertain
16:51:45 <stickster> mclasen: It's been discussed, just not consensus on actual dates
16:51:46 <kalev> looks like a shorter release cycle in any case
16:52:02 <stickster> *nod
16:52:50 <stickster> jwb: FESCo meets today, right?
16:52:52 <mclasen> ok. in any case, the f22 section of the task list is much too long for a febuary deadline...
16:52:59 * nirik nods. in about an hour or so.
16:53:04 <stickster> #link
16:53:50 <stickster> mclasen: might be of use here for estimated dates
16:53:51 <jwb> stickster, yes
16:54:02 <mclasen> I'll go over the f22 tasklist and get some updates from the involved people for the items
16:54:09 <mclasen> by next week
16:54:18 <stickster> Draft change proposals deadline 2015-Jan-20
16:54:29 <stickster> mclasen: Thank you, that would be great
16:55:01 <stickster> #action mclasen Review F22 tasklist above and get updates from relevant developers
16:55:47 <cschalle_> yeah, once that review is done we should also do some sort of call out to the wider community asking them to step up if they want to keep a certain feature on the list for FW22
16:55:51 <mclasen> owen: is your battery life testing likely to be in place for f22 ?
16:56:54 <stickster> cschalle_: I can take that call part on
16:56:57 <cschalle_> ryanlerch, do you think you would be able to conduct the developer polling in time for it to impact F22, or would it be F23 material?
16:56:59 <otaylor> mclasen: I think so yes - it's not a ton of work from where I am now to having a gnome-battery-benchmark package
16:57:21 <stickster> #action stickster Based on above review, make a CTA to community for additional Workstation features desired
16:57:52 <ryanlerch> cschalle_, hopefully
16:57:53 <mclasen> cta ?
16:58:00 <ryanlerch> call to action, right?
16:58:08 <mclasen> sach
16:58:17 <mclasen> stupid acronyms considered harmful
16:59:37 <stickster> heh
16:59:37 <stickster> #undo
16:59:37 <stickster> #action stickster Based on above review, make a call-to-action to community for additional Workstation features desired
16:59:37 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by stickster at 16:57:21 : stickster Based on above review, make a CTA to community for additional Workstation features desired
16:59:47 <stickster> One last thing before people disappear
16:59:51 <stickster> #topic Next meeting
17:00:16 <stickster> The next meeting is Wed Dec 17. The following meeting is Wed Dec 31, I'm proposing we skip it as it's the eve of a holiday
17:00:25 <cschalle_> +1 :)
17:00:27 <stickster> #proposed Skip Wed Dec 31 meeting
17:00:33 <mclasen> +1
17:00:34 <stickster> #proposal Skip Wed Dec 31 meeting
17:00:43 <stickster> I never remember the right command for zoddie
17:00:47 <stickster> +1 my own proposal :-)
17:00:51 <kalev> +1 :)
17:00:54 <rdieter> +1
17:01:14 <otaylor> +1
17:01:23 <stickster> ryanlerch?
17:01:42 <cschalle_> lets give ryanlerch credit for wanting to work on Fedora workstation on new years eve :)
17:01:46 <stickster> :-)
17:01:57 <stickster> With 6 for and none against, it's enough.
17:02:01 <stickster> #agreed Skip Wed Dec 31 meeting
17:02:08 <stickster> That's it -- thanks guys, see you on the list!
17:02:13 <stickster> #endmeeting