14:01:46 <randomuser> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:01:46 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon May 20 14:01:46 2013 UTC.  The chair is randomuser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:46 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:46 <randomuser> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:01:46 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:01:46 <randomuser> #topic Roll Call
14:02:09 <Capesteve> Hello
14:02:33 * jjmcd 
14:03:47 * LoKoMurdoK here
14:03:47 <randomuser> hmm
14:04:08 * Sparks is here... kinda
14:05:18 <nb> HELLO!
14:05:29 <jjmcd> hey Nick
14:05:34 <randomuser> hey nb!
14:05:53 <randomuser> okay, we can start now :)
14:06:07 <randomuser> I've actually updated the topic page today:
14:06:13 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#20_May_2013
14:06:23 <randomuser> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
14:06:42 <randomuser> I think the only floating action item we had was jjmcd's mail to -devel
14:06:59 <jjmcd> And not a huge lot of input on that
14:07:16 * randomuser nods
14:07:27 <randomuser> i was hoping for something more spirited
14:07:54 <bcotton> i didn't send an email, but i think it's a great idea
14:09:03 <randomuser> so, maybe we should just go for it
14:09:03 * lnovich here
14:09:42 <randomuser> #info Docs is considering opening wiki beats up for the next release much earlier
14:10:05 * pkovar is here
14:10:36 <randomuser> jjmcd, one more prod, at least on the docs list, then?
14:10:45 <jjmcd> wilco
14:11:05 <randomuser> #action jjmcd to mail about it
14:11:16 <randomuser> #topic Release Notes / Feature Review
14:11:48 <randomuser> So, i think we're moving along fairly well with the RNs, albeit behind schedule
14:12:26 <randomuser> I'd like to spend some time comparing Feature status with how we've represented the features - probably post beta
14:12:55 <randomuser> later, because maintainers are often not so diligent about updating the feature page
14:13:16 <randomuser> jreznik_ has been mailing them about it iirc
14:13:33 <randomuser> So, i'm thinking a VFAD or similar? any thoughts?
14:15:59 <randomuser> #action randomuser to mail list about feature update vfad or similar
14:16:12 <randomuser> I'm not sure how formal a thing a "VFAD" is...
14:16:23 <randomuser> #topic Pushing POTs
14:16:57 <randomuser> Some translators would apparently prefer POTs coming hot and fast
14:17:27 <randomuser> Which would mean more retranslations for the more active groups, but less retranslations for the less active groups
14:18:19 <randomuser> probably most pertinent to RNs, with a rapid change schedule
14:18:45 <randomuser> so, any thoughts on pushing POT changes as they come, vs at release stages?
14:19:37 <lnovich> does the zanata team have a preference?
14:20:42 <Sparks> randomuser: If there was a little box in TX that allowed the translators to say that they were ready for their work to be published then that might go a long way to fixing this problem.
14:20:50 <randomuser> lnovich, i got feedback from one of the guys on the french team
14:21:03 <randomuser> Sparks, :) I haven't forgotten about that
14:21:19 <Sparks> randomuser: Just figured I'd toss that in publicly.  :)
14:21:48 <randomuser> #action randomuser to file ticket with transifex re: translators mark docs ready
14:22:24 <pkovar> Sparks: the current workflow is that translators file a bug against the publish request component in rhbz
14:22:56 <pkovar> it's documented in the translation project guidelines
14:23:17 <randomuser> we don't see a whole lot of those bugs, pkovar
14:23:18 <Sparks> pkovar: Right, but those get lost.
14:23:26 <randomuser> ...or not filed
14:23:45 <randomuser> it's sad to see a lang sit at 95% and never get published
14:23:45 <pkovar> sure, having support in tx would probably make it easier
14:23:57 <Sparks> We have a great translation tool.  We should leverage that instead of adding more layers, IMO.
14:24:26 <bcotton> or have translation teams publish when they're ready instead of passing it back to the en-US writers to do?
14:24:30 <pkovar> so the idea is to mail the maintainer when translations are ready?
14:24:37 <Sparks> pkovar: In the TX-client there are ways to only download what's x% or certain languages.  Perhaps there could be an option to only download what's "ready".
14:24:51 <Sparks> bcotton: +1
14:25:06 <pkovar> yeah, sounds like a good idea
14:25:16 <lnovich> if that workflow works then we shouldn't change it
14:25:17 <Sparks> bcotton: That would be great as well as the translators would see any build errors and could fix them.
14:25:51 <pkovar> who would  be responsible for publishing the translations though? only the maintainer?
14:26:19 <randomuser> translator publishing could be easier to swallow as an opt-in thing, like their translation review
14:27:42 <Sparks> pkovar: The translation (lang) team would be the publisher of their language
14:28:15 <pkovar> Sparks: right, that's what i wanted to avoid with our current publishing mechanism
14:28:30 <pkovar> which is too complicated imho
14:28:42 <pkovar> for many translators to learn
14:28:49 <Sparks> pkovar: Seriously?
14:28:57 <pkovar> most seriously
14:29:12 <Sparks> pkovar: I've heard the "it's too hard" arguement before and I will whole-heartily disagree.
14:29:41 <Sparks> pkovar: There is nothing special about Docs people that make it to where we can magically publish this stuff.
14:29:56 <Sparks> pkovar: We have a simple wiki page with step-by-step procedures.
14:30:07 <Sparks> pkovar: In the future it will be even easier.
14:30:33 <pkovar> when we migrate to publican 3 with a new publishing mechanism , then we should probably start thinking how to get translators more "engaged "
14:30:49 <randomuser> Sparks, although, participating 'upstream' isn't something that any other project being translated will ask for
14:30:56 <pkovar> i definitely wouldn't do that before the migration
14:31:25 <Sparks> randomuser: True, but the translators aren't contributing to upstream, really.  They are actually creating a derivative work.
14:31:28 <pkovar> also keep in mind that many translators are not as technical as docs maintainers
14:31:44 <randomuser> heh, nice logic
14:31:45 <lnovich> they are less technical
14:31:48 <pkovar> a different group of people, basically
14:32:07 <lnovich> and don't always know what needs translating and what needs to be left as is
14:32:08 <Sparks> pkovar: Hey, if I can do it...
14:32:23 <Sparks> :)
14:32:24 <lnovich> which is why tagging things correctly is key
14:32:52 <lnovich> i just had a whole discussion about how to translate <literal> tags
14:33:39 <randomuser> lnovich, if all of us had those kind of discussions, conversations like this one would be easier. We don't always get that kind of involvement from translators
14:33:54 <randomuser> usually, just one or two teams will speak up at all
14:34:16 <lnovich> would you like me to get some opinions or guidelines?
14:34:23 <lnovich> I was thinking of writing someting
14:34:59 <lnovich> tips to writing for a localized world - or something
14:35:19 <lnovich> i can ask the zanata group
14:35:19 <randomuser> I could use those kind of tips, sure
14:35:30 <bcotton> ideally, we'd have a style guide that would tell us what to do for these kinds of things
14:35:31 <lnovich> and get a discussion going
14:35:48 <lnovich> agreed
14:35:51 <randomuser> it sidesteps the process discussion, but involvement is good on all sides
14:36:08 <lnovich> and then come back to the group w/my findings
14:36:11 <randomuser> lnovich, do the zanata people subscribe to trans@fp.o ?
14:36:27 <lnovich> i don't know for sure
14:36:29 <lnovich> i will ask
14:36:40 <randomuser> thanks
14:37:11 <lnovich> NP!
14:37:18 <randomuser> bcotton, wasn't GNOME making the 'one' style guide for us all
14:37:21 <randomuser> ?
14:37:45 * bcotton shrugs
14:38:01 <bcotton> a lot of the style could be combined from various existing sources
14:38:08 <jjmcd> Might ping Shaun on that
14:38:49 <randomuser> sounds like something for the off-season
14:38:56 <pkovar> gnome docs team currently doesn't have an updated style guide
14:38:57 <lnovich> would this style guide cover only grammar, spelling, and usage or would it also covered <tags> that should and should not be used in defined situations
14:39:27 <pkovar> only a deprecated one from gnome 2 era, fwiw
14:39:27 <randomuser> lnovich, I'd like to have a unified reference for tag usage
14:39:37 <lnovich> i would LOVE that!
14:39:53 <lnovich> there is more than one way to skin the XML cat
14:40:02 <lnovich> and all those ways lead to chaos
14:40:18 <randomuser> Capesteve brought <systemitem class=""> to my attention last week, which avoids all kinds of awkwardness
14:40:44 <bcotton> lnovich: both
14:41:04 <lnovich> I just finished documenting the domain.xml virt initializtion files  and figuring out how to describe and define <XML> in line was not easy
14:41:25 <lnovich> i mean it is easy but there are at least 5 ways to do it
14:41:31 <randomuser> lnovich, you can ask in #fedora-docs next time :)
14:42:02 <lnovich> so a more "unified" (geez did I say that word?) approach would be refreshing
14:42:18 <randomuser> we've all got the documentation guide cloned, right?
14:42:33 <randomuser> who wants to volunteer to start a section on tag usage
14:42:59 <lnovich> as long as we don't need it tomorrow - I'll take it
14:43:17 <lnovich> can you send me the repo link?
14:43:44 <randomuser> lnovich, no, not tomorrow. Getting the section established for us all to work on is a good enough start
14:43:52 * bcotton notes that this would be a great chapter in the Documentation Guide
14:44:04 <lnovich> +1
14:44:19 <randomuser> ssh://git.fedorahosted.org/docs/documentation-guide.git
14:44:46 <randomuser> and wrapping up the topic, I'm going to go ahead and push POTs as I make changes to the RNs
14:44:53 <lnovich> ok i have no problem putting something together
14:44:58 <randomuser> thanks lnovich
14:45:21 <randomuser> #action lnovich to start section on tag usage standards in documentation guide
14:45:28 <randomuser> #topic Release Announcement
14:45:53 <randomuser> jreznik asked us to talk about the beta release announcement
14:46:05 <randomuser> usually this is a joint venture with marketing and docs, right?
14:47:42 <randomuser> #info if anyone gets a chance, please work on the release announcement
14:47:53 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F19_Beta_release_announcement
14:48:04 <randomuser> #topic Idea: repo for outlier content
14:48:21 <randomuser> I think we should have a repo for all of the content that doesnt readily fit somewhere else
14:49:00 <randomuser> it would make it easier for new contributors to write up atomic articles, and begin something that might allow us to publish more atomic articles
14:49:20 <randomuser> or, it would store them someplace until a guide writer finds where to integrate a section
14:50:01 <randomuser> any objections?
14:50:41 <bcotton> i think the wiki would be a good fit
14:50:48 <bcotton> then it's more accessible to general users
14:51:12 <bcotton> if the page gets subsumed into a guide, then the wiki page can be marked/cleared as appropriate
14:51:19 <Sparks> bcotton: On the wiki as ASCIIDoc?
14:51:49 <randomuser> right... but this way people can get markup practice and help
14:52:29 <randomuser> and there's a big bucket of unpublished articles for {newsletter, future docs articles}
14:52:35 <Sparks> randomuser: It's more difficult to properly move stuff from one git to a new git (including branches) than to just write it on the wiki
14:52:36 <bcotton> yeah, but if we're writing articles for no one to see, it doesn't strike me as the best use of our time
14:52:57 <lnovich> maybe some of us can be listed somewhere as SMEs for docbook
14:53:12 <lnovich> and then those who need help will know who to turn to
14:53:17 <randomuser> bcotton, that's a fair point
14:53:20 <Sparks> lnovich: Is there a mug for DocBookXML markup?
14:53:38 <Sparks> bcotton: If you want to write stuff that no one will see then definitely put it on the wiki
14:53:39 <lnovich> mug? i have no idea sparks
14:53:41 <randomuser> I was thinking specifically of people that join docs but then they don't know where to start, and guides are intimidating in scope
14:53:54 <Sparks> lnovich: Like the mug with all the emacs commands...  :)
14:54:29 <lnovich> ok sparks - let me know if you find one
14:55:20 * randomuser shrugs
14:55:23 <randomuser> not the best idea then
14:55:27 <randomuser> #topic Flock
14:55:37 <randomuser> anyone going to Flock?
14:55:48 <randomuser> will we have a docs presence there?
14:57:30 <randomuser> hmm, might be a bit late in the hour to cover a new conversation
14:57:37 <randomuser> #topic open floor
14:57:49 <randomuser> Last minute concerns and complaints, anyone?
14:58:44 * lnovich im good
14:59:06 <Sparks> Wait, complaints?
14:59:10 * Sparks pulls out his list.
14:59:15 <Sparks> I've been waiting all week for this!
14:59:23 <randomuser> #endmeeting