14:00:00 <bcotton> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan  7 14:00:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:20 <bcotton> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:00:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:00:34 <bcotton> started at 14:00:00? bounus points to me!
14:00:39 <bcotton> bonus, as well
14:00:42 <bcotton> #topic Roll Call
14:00:43 * zoglesby is here
14:00:47 * Capesteve wave
14:01:06 * jsmith is here (but only barely)
14:01:49 * lnovich here
14:04:06 * randomuser 
14:04:12 <bcotton> #chair zoglesby
14:04:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton zoglesby
14:04:16 <bcotton> #info Participants are reminded to make liberal use of #info #link #help in order to make the minutes "more better"
14:04:26 <bcotton> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
14:04:42 <bcotton> okay, i sent a poke to guide owners on the mailing list, but it's probably good to do that again, so
14:04:46 <bcotton> #action bcotton to solicit guide updates on mailing list
14:04:50 <bcotton> jjmcd_: ping
14:06:26 <bcotton> okay, no jjmcd_
14:06:43 <bcotton> #action jjmcd_ to update the install directory for the Release Notes
14:06:50 <bcotton> #topic Fedora 18 schedule
14:06:58 <bcotton> #link http://jreznik.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-18/f-18-docs-tasks.html
14:07:16 * jreznik is around
14:07:17 <bcotton> #info F18 final is scheduled for 15 Jan
14:07:24 <bcotton> good morning, jreznik
14:07:53 * zoglesby has to run
14:08:27 <jreznik> btw. if any poking is still needed, /me can help
14:08:52 <bcotton> have your pokestick sharpened?
14:10:35 <bcotton> any other discussion on the schedule or guide status?
14:11:47 * shaiton says Hi, and know that he as too look for fr plublications :s
14:11:55 <bcotton> #topic Release Notes
14:12:14 * randomuser ahem
14:12:42 <bcotton> randomuser: go
14:13:23 <randomuser> We're behind schedule on the release notes, so while information that might be added continue to come to light, i think we should bite the bullet and declare them finished
14:13:41 <jjmcd_> Sorry /me is here, just brain dead
14:13:50 <bcotton> mornin, jjmcd_
14:13:55 <jjmcd_> And no
14:13:55 <randomuser> I'm going to do a review today before pushing POTs out, and would appreciate it if anyone else had the time to skim as well
14:14:38 <bcotton> randomuser: on the people.fp.o site?
14:14:41 * pkovar is late
14:14:54 <randomuser> that too
14:15:39 <randomuser> yeah, I can put up something on fedorapeople to review
14:15:58 <bcotton> #info randomuser will publish RN preview on http://people.fedoraproject.org/groups/docs/release-notes/ before updating POTs
14:18:27 <randomuser> i have nothing else on the release notes
14:18:36 <bcotton> anyone else have RN-related discussion?
14:19:15 <bcotton> #topic /usr/share/help
14:19:23 <bcotton> pkovar, the floor is yours
14:19:33 <pkovar> thanks
14:19:56 <pkovar> i plan to file a bug report against publican
14:20:27 <pkovar> to see if the global change of the install dir is realistic
14:20:44 <pkovar> from /usr/doc to /usr/help
14:20:57 <pkovar> there would be still some issues
14:21:18 <pkovar> like publican using a different standard for lang codes, for example
14:21:24 <bcotton> #action pkovar to file a bug report against publican to see if the global change of the install dir is realistic
14:21:42 <pkovar> but the idea is to have both the fedora and gnome docs installed in /usr/help
14:22:04 <bcotton> #info the idea is to have both the fedora and gnome docs installed in /usr/share/help
14:22:24 <pkovar> with the plan to implement docs search from gnome shell
14:22:24 <bcotton> pkovar: is this something that other packages will be moving toward, too?
14:22:47 <pkovar> bcotton: if approved, yes
14:23:01 <bcotton> pkovar: approved by? FESCo?
14:23:06 * zoglesby is back
14:23:25 <jjmcd_> Docs are in /usr/share/doc, help files in /usr/share/help  - If Publican produced help files it may be a good plan\
14:23:27 <pkovar> by docs communities / people doing the docs packaging...
14:24:08 <randomuser> pkovar, if I understand this correctly, you want indexed content to be searchable, and it helps to separate CHANGELOG etc from user help docs?
14:24:17 <jjmcd_> Many apps put their help files in help, all put their doc files in doc
14:24:19 <pkovar> jjmcd_: you mostly have license files in /usr/share/doc
14:24:26 <jjmcd_> Mostly
14:24:38 <pkovar> randomuser:  exactly
14:24:40 <jjmcd_> But you also have docs for proper apps.  No docs in help
14:25:07 <jjmcd_> the ones that only have licenses are just lazy developers
14:25:36 <jjmcd_> there are no docs in help, only help files
14:26:00 <pkovar> jjmcd_: it depends on how you define documents (docs)
14:26:16 <pkovar> i think that help files are documents, actually
14:26:43 <jjmcd_> True, we used to put RNs in yelp
14:26:51 <jjmcd_> Well, talk to Shaun about that
14:27:09 <jjmcd_> But yelp became unuseable for docs
14:27:33 <pkovar> jjmcd_: yes, i already talked to shaun about that : https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690058
14:28:12 <pkovar> it looks like we could have search if  /usr/share/help is used...
14:28:25 <pkovar> no go with /usr/share/doc
14:28:30 <jjmcd_> There is no real structure to help. It can be thought of as index cards.  Different from docs
14:29:10 <jjmcd_> pkovar, certainly if you used mallard
14:29:20 <pkovar> jjmcd_:  that's the case with gnome help files, yes
14:29:52 <pkovar> jjmcd_: but i think we can still produce guides and install them in /usr/share/help
14:30:05 <jjmcd_> but you won't get search out of it
14:30:28 <pkovar> gnome  used to produce guides in docbook and they were installed in  /usr/share/help
14:30:39 <jjmcd_> yes, before they changed yelp
14:30:47 <jjmcd_> we used to, too
14:30:48 <pkovar> jjmcd_: we will if we use /usr/share/help :-)
14:31:12 <jjmcd_> only if you write for yelp
14:31:29 <pkovar> jjmcd_: yelp fully supports HTML
14:31:49 <pkovar> so we can view our publican books in yelp
14:31:49 <jjmcd_> Another issues we ran into that shawn promoised to fix - incompatible with KDE
14:31:58 <jjmcd_> yes view
14:32:24 <jjmcd_> I don't believe search tho unless you wrote in mallard
14:32:26 <pkovar> jjmcd_: yes, KDE is another issue
14:33:07 <pkovar> jjmcd_: why? i see no problem in implementing a search provider indexing publican html files
14:33:24 <jjmcd_> As I recall, yelp would really trash html if the user selected the wrong colors as well
14:33:44 <pkovar> gnome shell already has a provider for documents like pdfs, chat logs, etc,
14:33:54 <pkovar> why not publican books..
14:34:07 <jjmcd_> just needs to be done
14:34:24 <pkovar> jjmcd_:  haven't seen that issue yet
14:34:27 <jjmcd_> But we could do that for leaving the docs in the docs place, too
14:34:54 <jjmcd_> Theat was one of the other reasons we left yelp
14:35:02 <pkovar> jjmcd_: the  we would probably be indexing lots of useless content
14:35:15 <jjmcd_> but the non-GNOME desktops was the big reason
14:35:41 <pkovar> pkovar: and shaun doesn't like /doc at all :-)
14:35:56 <jjmcd_> yeah, well, he wants the workd to be mallard
14:36:10 <jjmcd_> And it is superb FOR HELP FILES]
14:36:53 <pkovar> jjmcd_: well, he is willing to implement support for publican, but only in one root dir
14:37:02 <pkovar> that dir being help
14:37:26 <jjmcd_> So what about all the other desktops?
14:37:45 <jjmcd_> BTW, yelp would fix a lot of ugliness around handling languages
14:38:08 <pkovar> jjmcd_: i plan to talk to some kde people
14:38:24 <pkovar> jjmcd_: yes, that's an important point
14:38:42 <jjmcd_> I think Shaun did some work to make yelp less KDE hostile, but then he lost interest
14:39:00 <jjmcd_> Probably because the KDE help thing is so much better
14:39:13 <pkovar> i think we can at least try to improve things a bit
14:39:51 <jjmcd_> And a few years back there was some impetus to get the various help shchemes together
14:40:25 <jjmcd_> But then everyone got distracted by GNOME shell
14:42:21 <pkovar> yep...
14:42:39 <bcotton> sounds like we have more to work out on this, but is there anything else that needs to get snuck in this week?
14:43:09 <jjmcd_> Now that we know GNOME shell is never going to deliver its promises, maybe folks have the time to revisit consolidating the help schemes
14:44:23 <bcotton> okay, moving on, then
14:44:26 <bcotton> #topic FUDcon NA
14:44:32 <bcotton> #info In Lawrence, KS January 18-20
14:44:41 <bcotton> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Lawrence_2013
14:45:05 <zoglesby> I think we can remove this item as only Sparks and I will be attending
14:45:27 <bcotton> aww
14:45:39 * jjmcd_ will be in SaR training
14:46:06 <zoglesby> jjmcd_: I hope you will not be jumping out of a helo
14:46:18 <jjmcd_> Nope, wildernedd first aid
14:46:23 <jjmcd_> wilderness
14:46:36 <zoglesby> or wild nerd first aid
14:46:43 <jjmcd_> :)
14:48:11 * jsmith is *hoping* to be there
14:48:58 <jreznik> jsmith: hoping? I hope you will be there (and to meet bcotton and company ;-)
14:50:06 <bcotton> jreznik: unless he's passing through lafayette on his way there, he might have a hard time with that :-)
14:51:51 <bcotton> anything else on FUDCon?
14:52:42 <bcotton> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
14:52:50 <bcotton> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
14:52:53 <bcotton> yup. bugz
14:53:12 <randomuser> oh, i have a question here
14:53:18 <bcotton> randomuser: go ahead
14:53:56 <randomuser> is there a way to search for bugs that are tagged with fedora_requires_release_note flag, besides going off the email?
14:54:24 <randomuser> there's a pattern matching function in BZ custom search, but I couldn't make it dance
14:54:27 <bcotton> randomuser: yes, i think it's under the advanced search options
14:54:45 <bcotton> i did it once, i should have bookmarked it
14:54:57 <randomuser> I can keep poking at it if not
14:55:59 <bcotton> #topic open floor discussion
14:56:10 <bcotton> we have about 4 minutes for anything that hasn't been covered
14:56:45 <zoglesby> Release Annoucemment still needs love
14:56:54 <bcotton> #help Release Annoucemment still needs love
14:56:56 <zoglesby> jreznik: hint hint
14:57:07 <zoglesby> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F18_release_announcement
14:57:09 <bcotton> zoglesby: is it to the point where we can make it Marketing's problem?
14:57:17 <jreznik> zoglesby: thanks
14:57:36 <jreznik> KDE should be KDE Plasma Workspaces
14:57:54 <zoglesby> bcotton: sure, jreznik and rbergeron had some input for content, but other then that its ready for marketing
14:57:56 * jreznik is going to fix it
14:58:00 <zoglesby> suehle: ^^
14:58:24 <jreznik> but otherwise it seems ok to be sent to marketing
14:58:59 <bcotton> okay, great
14:59:12 <zoglesby> bcotton: I will send an email to marketing and a reminder in irc
14:59:15 <bcotton> and we've reached the end of the hour and QA probably wants to kick us out :-)
14:59:18 <bcotton> zoglesby: thanks!
14:59:21 <bcotton> thianks everyone!
14:59:26 <bcotton> #endmeeting