22:02:09 <cwickert> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2012-03-14
22:02:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 14 22:02:09 2012 UTC.  The chair is cwickert. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:02:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
22:02:16 <cwickert> #meetingname famsco
22:02:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
22:02:58 <cwickert> #chairs zoltanh721 cwickert herlo kaio yn1v gbraad igor
22:03:17 <cwickert> +topic Roll Call
22:03:20 <cwickert> #topic Roll Call
22:03:24 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
22:03:28 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
22:03:31 <zoltanh721> .fas zoltanh721
22:03:32 <zodbot> zoltanh721: zoltanh721 'Hoppár Zoltán' <hopparz@gmail.com>
22:04:04 <cwickert> zoltanh721: while we are waiting for the others to show up... did you see the tickets?
22:04:11 <yn1v> .fas yn1v
22:04:12 <zodbot> yn1v: yn1v 'Neville A. Cross' <neville@taygon.com>
22:04:21 <cwickert> that is 3, one more for a quorum
22:04:25 <zoltanh721> just checking them now
22:05:07 * yn1v was on the phone ... now all my attention is for the meeting. I do not foresee any interuption today.
22:05:51 <cwickert> #info cwickert, zoltanh721, kaio and yn1v are here for the meeting
22:06:10 <cwickert> #info no trace of the other FAmSCo members, no regrets were sent to the list
22:06:54 <cwickert> #info Reminder: If you cannot make it to the meeting, please send at least your regrets to famsco list and go through the open tickets that are on the meeting agenda in trac
22:07:39 <cwickert> the meeting for today's meeting is at https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
22:07:48 <cwickert> erm, agenda :)
22:08:12 <cwickert> #topic Swag shipping improvements
22:08:18 <cwickert> .famsco 250
22:08:18 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/250
22:08:49 <cwickert> frankly speaking to me this looks like this is going nowhere
22:09:06 <cwickert> because there is no feedback from the people who complained
22:09:25 <cwickert> I wrote a mail to ambassadors list, but there was not a single response
22:09:53 <cwickert> if we don't know the problems, all we can do is to make recommendations
22:10:02 <cwickert> herlo wanted to write a wiki page about this
22:10:10 <yn1v> I invited people for asking things. Only Ka <Kalfie> responded
22:10:11 <cwickert> but I don't know if this has happened
22:10:24 <cwickert> yn1v: so, what did she say?
22:10:46 <yn1v> we exchanges some mail and she will correct her ticket
22:11:17 <yn1v> but, the point is, not even people invited to ask for things were making noise.
22:11:30 <cwickert> yes, it's sad
22:11:39 <zoltanh721> +1
22:11:51 <cwickert> yn1v: you mean ticket #272, right?
22:11:54 <cwickert> .famsco 272
22:11:54 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/272
22:12:07 <cwickert> I think this is a good example of how things go wrong :)
22:12:17 <cwickert> it's in the wrong trac instance
22:13:13 <cwickert> I think it should be at https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-latam/ - shouldn't it?
22:13:57 <cwickert> yn1v: right?
22:14:01 <yn1v> yes, it was a mixture....asking budget and swag together, and stating a wrong deadline...
22:14:18 <cwickert> ok, this seems to confuse many people
22:14:27 <cwickert> I had the same with twohot yesterday
22:14:27 <yn1v> yes, I will mail... and blog about how we are trying to improve things
22:14:49 <cwickert> I think we need to work on the wiki
22:14:56 <cwickert> or on the trac instances
22:15:06 <yn1v> communicate how things are expected to be done
22:15:16 <cwickert> the frontpage of each trac instance should clearly state what it is used for
22:15:38 <cwickert> who is going to take care if this?
22:15:54 <cwickert> I can do famsco and emea-swag-tracker tracs
22:16:11 <yn1v> I will take care of latam
22:16:13 <cwickert> who is admin of fedora-latam and fedora-apac tracs?
22:17:05 <cwickert> #action cwickert to update frontpages of famsco and emea-swag-tracker trac instances to clearly state what they are used for
22:17:29 <cwickert> #action yn1v to update frontpages of fedora-latam trac instance to clearly state what it's used for
22:17:52 <yn1v> hey! I am admin of latam trac ... what a nice surprise :)
22:17:58 <zoltanh721> :)
22:18:05 <cwickert> :)
22:18:21 <cwickert> #action cwickert to find out how manages fedora-apac and fedora-india trac instances
22:18:37 <cwickert> ok, anything else we can do about this for the moment?
22:18:38 * nirik can provide that info for you guys if you want.
22:18:59 <cwickert> nirik: I was just about to ask you in #fedora-admin ;)
22:19:09 <nirik> cool.
22:19:33 <cwickert> nirik: you can add the info here, then we have it in the meeting log
22:19:47 * nirik gathers it. just a sec.
22:20:09 <nirik> fedora-apac: bckurera harishpillay mspevack susmit
22:20:49 <cwickert> #info https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-apac/ is managed by bckurera harishpillay mspevack susmit
22:20:51 <nirik> fedora-india: HarishPillay kushal sankarshan shakthimaan sundaram susmit
22:21:06 <cwickert> #info https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-india is managed by HarishPillay kushal sankarshan shakthimaan sundaram susmit
22:21:29 <cwickert> thanks nirik, means I already have done my first action item of this week ;)
22:21:39 <nirik> happy to help
22:21:44 <cwickert> #topic Budget and reimbursement issues
22:21:53 <cwickert> .famsco 251
22:21:53 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/251
22:21:56 <cwickert> not much news
22:22:11 <cwickert> no feedback from Harish
22:22:35 <cwickert> because there is a lot of budget things going on inside of RH ATM
22:22:45 <cwickert> as for reimbursements
22:22:58 <cwickert> my plan was to work on that with kital on CLT this weekend
22:23:05 <cwickert> but unfortunately he cannot attend
22:23:18 <cwickert> yn1v, you are a credit card holder, right?
22:23:26 <yn1v> yes
22:24:12 <cwickert> inode0: you are the one for NA, right?
22:24:23 <cwickert> inode0, yn1v: how do you do your reporting?
22:24:25 <yn1v> kital flowchar, has the problem that is one flow chart for every case.... I think it will be nice to have one flow chart for every case
22:24:59 <inode0> I report to finance differently but to the public here:
22:25:02 <yn1v> I do my reporting directly to RH with copy to Harish
22:25:05 <inode0> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Inode0/community_credit_card_report
22:25:23 <yn1v> I should do a wiki page like that.
22:25:51 <cwickert> I wonder if we can do all this in one page
22:25:54 * yn1v is writting a new task in gtg (get-things-gnome)
22:26:15 <cwickert> how about we make a meeting of all credit card holders
22:26:21 <cwickert> and me and rbergeron perhaps
22:26:43 * cwickert is speaking of an IRC meeting, not RL
22:27:02 <inode0> for what purpose?
22:27:19 <cwickert> common reporting standards, maybe templates etc to make things easier
22:27:56 <inode0> ok but I probably will not agree to report the detail kital chooses to report in public
22:28:15 <cwickert> fine with me, then we all agree on less details
22:28:32 <inode0> this seems rather uninteresting to the public, but nice totals are very interesting
22:29:13 <yn1v> I think communication is good... I would like to exchange ideas.... I do not have any particular by now. But I am forward for that meeting
22:29:40 <cwickert> yn1v: for the record, this is kital's report: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jsimon/community_credit_card_report
22:30:03 <cwickert> I think all of this should go into the trac rbergeron and me are working on
22:30:22 <cwickert> I think the wiki pages are more red tape
22:30:28 * inode0 is willing to put a reasonable amount in one place
22:30:52 <inode0> we only use wiki pages now to be transparent
22:30:55 <cwickert> I mean, look at kital's report, he links to the trac tickets and we have all info there alredy
22:31:23 <inode0> people can't see those and that is one reason I don't want them in the report for the public much
22:31:53 <yn1v> an not every body can look at tickets... or it is famco public  now?
22:33:48 <inode0> to me the point of the wiki is to be transparent about spending at a level of detail important to the general Fedora Project member
22:34:02 <inode0> my report to finance is tailored differently
22:34:03 <yn1v> right
22:34:48 <inode0> if we want to use a budget trac I'm fine with that but I hope it isn't a 3rd place I need to report to
22:35:44 * inode0 spends more time reporting about using a credit card than he does using a credit card already :)
22:36:01 <yn1v> I agree, I hope it is not a 3rd place to write the same stuff over an over
22:36:33 <zoltanh721> inode0: there is not too much tracs are already there to follow the flow?
22:37:19 <inode0> zoltanh721: sorry, I don't quite understand your question
22:37:22 <yn1v> I think thats the key work ... "flow" ... we need a work flow, not a trac
22:37:41 <cwickert> was I disconnected?
22:37:45 <inode0> yes
22:37:59 <cwickert> what was the last thing you heard from me?
22:38:06 <cwickert> (23:31:56) cwickert: inode0: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/User:Inode0/community_credit_card_report <- so much for transparency ;)
22:38:09 <cwickert> (23:32:20) cwickert: if one cannot find the info, it is not transparent
22:38:46 <cwickert> what did I miss in the meantime?
22:38:53 <inode0> well, closed trac tickets are never transparent
22:39:09 <cwickert> inode0: what do you mean by closed?
22:39:22 <yn1v> private
22:39:28 <inode0> I mean not anyone can look at the tickets kital links to in his report
22:39:54 <cwickert> who said the new trac instance I was talking about is going to be private?
22:40:14 <cwickert> it's open now and I have no intentions to change that
22:40:20 <inode0> since creating it isn't transparent I have no idea what it will be :)
22:40:37 <cwickert> what is not transparent?
22:40:47 <inode0> but much of the information regarding payments is always going to be private
22:40:49 <yn1v> I am in a low mood about swag ... so today I think that average fedora member does not care for that ... but I am not usually think like that ;)
22:41:21 <cwickert> inode0: I still cannot follow you. what is not transparent?
22:41:40 <cwickert> yn1v: are we talking about swag or reimbursements?
22:41:50 <inode0> I don't know anything about this trac you and rbergeron are working on other than that it has something to do with the budget
22:41:59 <yn1v> reimbursement, but swag put me in that mood
22:42:28 <cwickert> inode0: the link has been given several times. not only in this channel
22:42:48 <inode0> so
22:42:57 <cwickert> I mean, it's not like we are having secrets, if you want to help us, I'll give you admin privs
22:43:00 <inode0> if I don't find it that makes it not transparent :)
22:43:18 <cwickert> then tell me what makes it transparent please
22:43:32 <cwickert> a wiki page that is not linked anywhere is not transparent either
22:43:52 <inode0> all I want is to not have a 3rd place to repeat myself - I'm already reporting this activity twice
22:43:57 <cwickert> for the record: https://fedorahosted.org/draftbudget/
22:44:14 <cwickert> inode0: that's *exactly* why I want trac
22:44:30 <cwickert> then you can just print out a report as pdf and send it to $whoever
22:45:02 <cwickert> anyway, I think rbergeron and I have to come up with something that works to convince people
22:45:11 <cwickert> we will continue to work on this
22:45:32 <cwickert> and I appreciate if others do the same, too. ideas welcome
22:45:36 <cwickert> anything else on this?
22:45:39 <cwickert> any suggestions?
22:45:46 * yn1v in phone call
22:46:06 * igorps is late but is here
22:46:10 * inode0 suggests all the stakeholders in the budget from the community side get on the same bus before it is too late
22:46:40 <cwickert> inode0: again I have no idea what you are trying to tell us, sorry
22:47:25 <inode0> have a meeting as you suggested, fill everyone in on what you are thinking, etc.
22:47:27 <cwickert> #info igorps has joined us
22:48:24 <cwickert> inode0: why is it always me?
22:48:34 <cwickert> I mean, where are *your* suggestions?
22:48:48 <inode0> I suggested the same people meeting many weeks ago
22:48:51 <cwickert> #action every board member to come up with (at least) one suggestion how to improve budget and reimbursements by next week
22:49:07 <zoltanh721> +1
22:49:18 <zoltanh721> But meeting is necessary as you proposed
22:49:19 <cwickert> inode0: and do you need an approval? why didn't you just call for that meeting? why didn't you run it?
22:49:51 <cwickert> ok, lets not play the blame game
22:50:20 <cwickert> #action cwickert to call for a meeting of all credit card holders plus rbergeron and cwickert
22:50:48 <cwickert> ok, we are running our of time again
22:50:58 <cwickert> lets focus on the important tickets
22:51:26 <cwickert> #topic Fedora disks for first half of 2012 (Chile and Argentina)
22:51:36 <cwickert> .famsco 263
22:51:40 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/263
22:52:01 <cwickert> yn1v: your thoughts on this one?
22:52:31 <cwickert> zoltanh721, igorps, kaio: of course you can state your opinion, too ;)
22:53:02 <zoltanh721> :)
22:53:05 <igorps> cwickert, as I said last meeting I find it a bit expensive too
22:53:25 <igorps> we produced F16 in Brazil and it wasn't that expensive
22:53:26 <cwickert> igorps: you are from LATAM, right?
22:53:37 <igorps> cwickert, right
22:53:39 * cwickert considers this a yes :)
22:53:53 * yn1v is back
22:53:54 <cwickert> so, how important are media in LATAM?
22:54:01 <yn1v> yes, I find it expensive
22:54:10 <cwickert> here in EMEA they are not really important, everybody has fast internet
22:54:15 <igorps> cwickert, as much important as in other regions
22:54:25 <yn1v> not only expensive, I find quantities quite large
22:54:44 <yn1v> The only good side is the shipping.
22:54:56 <igorps> cwickert, I would say even more important due to bandwidth restrictions
22:54:58 <LinuxCode> cwickert, how many did we have in Berlin ?
22:55:06 <LinuxCode> 700 is a huuuge amount
22:55:07 <cwickert> I mean, do media make a huge impact? do you think that people actually install them because you give them a free DVD?
22:55:12 <cwickert> LinuxCode: 300 max
22:55:20 <LinuxCode> so 700 is way over the top
22:55:34 * cwickert doesn't recall an event where we had more then 500
22:55:41 <LinuxCode> LinuxTag is the largest foss trade fair in Europe from what I understood
22:55:49 <cwickert> LinuxCode: no its not
22:55:53 <yn1v> In the other hand, we are how far from F17 ?
22:55:54 <LinuxCode> ok, it isnt
22:55:56 <LinuxCode> hehe
22:55:59 * herlo apologizes for being late. DST confused my time.
22:56:01 <cwickert> there is an event in Paris that is bigger
22:56:04 <LinuxCode> k
22:56:06 <LinuxCode> still
22:56:10 <LinuxCode> loads of people were there
22:56:19 <cwickert> even in Paris they only had 500 I think
22:56:19 <LinuxCode> and they want 7000 media for each event
22:56:24 <LinuxCode> 700
22:56:39 <LinuxCode> well FLISOL
22:57:15 <cwickert> yn1v, igorps, ok, what are we going to do? approve it or tell them to discuss the numbers in the LATAM meeting again?
22:57:43 <yn1v> I propos to ask them to drop quantities, tyo avoid left over after F17
22:57:50 <igorps> yn1v, +1
22:57:53 <cwickert> I mean, we could approve it, but I think this is a lot. if every country in LATAM requested the same budget, you have a problem
22:57:54 <zoltanh721> +1
22:58:04 <cwickert> +1
22:58:42 <igorps> For instance we bought 700 media for Brazil, we could ask them to produce in that level
22:58:46 <yn1v> yes, we don have a budget as guide on how much we will expend on medias
22:59:08 <yn1v> don = don't
22:59:28 <yn1v> that may lead to problems
23:00:09 <cwickert> #agreed ask if the quantity of media in ticket #263 can be dropped
23:00:53 <cwickert> ok, and now for another important ticket
23:00:56 <cwickert> #topic FUDCon bids 2012
23:01:04 <cwickert> .famsco 258
23:01:04 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/258
23:01:52 <cwickert> zoltanh721: I still see no numbers in the budget draft
23:02:21 <zoltanh721> But I filled them - there are no total
23:02:51 <zoltanh721> but most of them there are
23:02:53 <cwickert> "max.tot. 15 EUR/person" doesn't say much either
23:03:17 <zoltanh721> ok, I will change all of it to numbers
23:03:26 <cwickert> yes, I need totals
23:03:30 <zoltanh721> just numbers ok
23:03:31 <cwickert> say 100 people, or 150
23:03:40 <zoltanh721> we count with 150
23:03:45 <igorps> It would be nice to have it in dollars too
23:03:54 <zoltanh721> ok, I do it
23:04:00 <cwickert> igorps: does this really matter?
23:04:17 <cwickert> I mean, this is the EMEA FUDCon, we are using EUR here
23:04:28 <cwickert> it's only to compare with Paris
23:04:40 <igorps> cwickert, just for comparison with other fudcons and for the total budget available
23:04:53 <cwickert> we could use whatever currency we want, as long as we use the same for both bids
23:05:09 <cwickert> zoltanh721: ok, just make the totals in USD, too
23:05:17 <cwickert> but not the individual items
23:05:19 <igorps> that would work
23:05:29 <cwickert> ok
23:05:37 <zoltanh721> ok, fill up with numbers only
23:05:37 <cwickert> I would like to move on as follows
23:05:49 <cwickert> have an IRC meeting with all interested people
23:06:02 <cwickert> and then make the final decision next week
23:06:35 <cwickert> zoltanh721: I think you are making things more difficult then neccesary
23:06:42 <cwickert> e.g. catering
23:07:04 <cwickert> if you buy catering somewhere and they give you the price per person
23:07:30 <cwickert> then its ok, but other than that I'd just say "I need 100 EUR for coffee at the venue"
23:07:42 <cwickert> and it doesn't matter if it turns out to be 120 later
23:08:06 <zoltanh721> cwickert: understood
23:08:09 <cwickert> ok
23:08:42 <cwickert> #action cwickert to call for an all hands meeting about the FUDCon bids
23:08:51 <cwickert> anything else we need to do?
23:09:00 <cwickert> for this ticket I mean
23:09:44 <zoltanh721> nope I think - just I need the decision - before my hair gets too gray
23:09:46 <zoltanh721> :)
23:10:25 <cwickert> I think you are worrying too much
23:10:34 <cwickert> and pay attention to tiny details
23:10:42 <cwickert> please make sure to not loose the big picture
23:11:51 <cwickert> ok, what other tickets should we discuss?
23:11:57 <cwickert> I need to stop in 15 minutes
23:11:59 <cwickert> say 20
23:12:27 <cwickert> zoltanh721: please provide details in #267
23:13:16 <zoltanh721> Well we need lodging, and I have mailed to Gergely, he will also make the tickets
23:14:18 <cwickert> not here, in the ticket
23:14:23 <cwickert> and again, I need numbers
23:14:23 <zoltanh721> My talks are almost ready I will add them to the event page too as Gnokii has alredy begun
23:14:31 <cwickert> NOT here
23:14:34 <cwickert> please
23:14:50 <cwickert> get in touch with gnokii for lodging
23:15:01 <cwickert> ok, any other tickets?
23:16:06 <igorps> cwickert, any decision on #262?
23:17:19 <cwickert> igorps: no, I don't think this is urgent and to be honest I don't fully understand biertie's latest comment there
23:17:28 * rbergeron peeks in
23:18:33 <cwickert> igorps: does that answer your question?
23:18:34 <igorps> cwickert, It's not urgent indeed, but it seems to me that most of the guys are not confortable with an eventual approval
23:19:02 <cwickert> I'm afraid I will need to talk to the person myself
23:19:23 <cwickert> if we give him a 2nd chance, he needs to stop this shit
23:19:52 <cwickert> any other tickets?
23:20:33 <cwickert> ok, then lets go through the open action items
23:20:46 <cwickert> #topic Open action items from previous meetings
23:20:58 <cwickert> the previous meeting was http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2012-03-07/famsco.2012-03-07-22.04.html
23:21:18 <cwickert> herlo: what about "herlo will write a wiki page with best swag working practices"?
23:21:32 <cwickert> my action item was "cwickert to nag harish about confirming the budget"
23:21:58 <cwickert> there was not much I could do, I don't think that Harish can confirm the budget, even if I get a hold of him
23:22:17 <cwickert> "zoltanh721 to update the Budapest bid wiki page with numbers on budget and other details" was mostly done
23:22:26 <cwickert> but still, some numbers are missing
23:22:46 <cwickert> and then we had an item for everybody "all FAmSCo members to go through the new tickets on https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9 in track by next week"
23:22:56 <cwickert> please ask yourself if you all did that
23:23:13 <cwickert> because I am under the impression that only 2 persons actually did it
23:23:46 <cwickert> #topic Open Floor
23:23:56 <cwickert> speak up or be quite forever
23:24:02 <cwickert> :)
23:24:04 <herlo> cwickert: I failed. I will work on that this week, I promise
23:24:14 <cwickert> herlo: ok, thanks for the feedback
23:24:19 <rbergeron> cwickert: can we set the meeting for maybe mon or tues?
23:24:33 <cwickert> rbergeron: how about next Monday then?
23:24:39 <rbergeron> finance sig or whatever we want to call it
23:24:53 <rbergeron> sure
23:24:54 <cwickert> I thought FUDCon bids
23:25:19 <rbergeron> no, i was talking finance/creditcardholders/whatever
23:25:27 <cwickert> rbergeron: ah, Monday is bad, I'm afraid I'll be travelling
23:25:46 <cwickert> ok, I'll figure something out
23:25:58 <rbergeron> okay, just not tomorrow/friday is all i ask
23:26:12 * cwickert will close the meeting in 3 minutes if there are no further questions
23:26:17 <cwickert> rbergeron: don't worry
23:27:45 <rbergeron> cwickert: i talked to twohot, i asked him to update the ticket with what is going on but it looks like he didn't
23:28:07 <rbergeron> the booth payment did get received, but the media == disaster
23:28:36 <cwickert> I talked to him yesterday and it seemed he was not overly worried
23:28:42 <cwickert> or not really taking care
23:28:42 <rbergeron> apparently despite getting a letter fedex still diverted it somewhere and i guess someone from idlelo is going to "help negotiate a fair tax"
23:29:21 <cwickert> this sucks
23:29:26 <cwickert> but I cannot change it
23:29:30 <rbergeron> yup
23:29:47 <rbergeron> but, i asked ihm ot keep us apprised, so hopefully that happens
23:29:52 <rbergeron> "in the ticket"
23:29:59 <cwickert> yeah, did the same
23:30:08 <cwickert> anyway, I need to stop now
23:30:10 <cwickert> #endmeeting