02:09:11 <nb> #startmeeting famna
02:09:11 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  7 02:09:11 2011 UTC.  The chair is nb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
02:09:11 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
02:09:30 <nb> #meetingname famna
02:09:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famna'
02:10:08 <nb> #topic Events
02:10:16 * nb will just do the agenda from memory since i don't know of one
02:10:56 <mock> nb: isn't there an agenda on the fedora site?
02:11:10 * nb is looking
02:11:23 <inode0> there is a pat agenda of containers with nothing specific added to any of them
02:11:33 <nb> #topic Announcements
02:11:34 <inode0> that is one of our meeting problems
02:11:39 <nb> Anyone have any announcements?
02:12:02 <inode0> that isn't an agenda - just a list of things that sound like something we should talk about :)
02:12:10 <mock> i missed last month's meeting
02:12:19 <mock> that's all i have
02:12:24 * nb wonders if it would be nice to go back to biweekly
02:12:29 <nb> but i guess thats a topic for open floor
02:12:44 <nb> Southern_Gentlem, ping meeting going on
02:13:18 <nb> rbergeron, rrix ianweller
02:13:22 <inode0> nb: what we need is someone to kick us out of our funk
02:13:27 <ianweller> hey what
02:13:39 * nb was trying to ping the NA people
02:13:44 <nb> who might be interested in meeting
02:13:53 <nb> I guess no one has announcements
02:13:56 <nb> #topic Events
02:14:00 <nb> Anyone have any news about events?
02:14:04 <rbergeron> hi!
02:14:07 <rbergeron> ooh a famna meting
02:14:08 <nb> I don't, aside from that fudcon is in a little over a month
02:14:08 * mock gets a boot...
02:14:25 * ianweller is working on fudcon booklets as we speak
02:14:34 <rbergeron> that's far more awesome than cleaning my desk
02:14:37 <rbergeron> WHAT UP FAMNA
02:14:49 * rbergeron notes scale is coming up in January
02:14:59 <rbergeron> weekend after fudcon.
02:15:19 <rbergeron> I believe herlo is planning a FAD / learn to sysadmin / etc. class
02:16:14 <dramsey> Good information, rbergeron.
02:17:02 <kk4ewt> nb 2 meetings at the moment
02:17:19 <rbergeron> #info SCALE (so cal linux expo) is Jan. 20-22
02:18:06 <rbergeron> I think that's really the last NA event of the year (the fiscal year). Northwest linux fest is april, and unless there is something in march or Feb, I think that is it.
02:18:11 <rbergeron> I could be entirely wrong though.
02:18:14 <rbergeron> I usually am.
02:18:15 <rbergeron> ;)
02:18:32 * rbergeron looks around wondering if she's the only person here
02:18:37 * nb here
02:18:41 * disunited here
02:18:45 <nb> i guess this is probably the only event
02:18:57 <nb> #topic Budget
02:19:22 <dramsey> dramsey here, too.
02:19:23 <rbergeron> I .... really don't have anything here.
02:19:29 <rbergeron> But if anyone has questions, you kno, ask, and I shall harass.
02:20:03 <nb> rbergeron, how are we doing? Budget page is not updated since 10/27
02:20:30 <rbergeron> I don't know. I'm not in charge of the budget page nor am I in that department :\
02:20:35 <rbergeron> harish: ping
02:20:49 <rbergeron> nb: did you hear back on media yet?
02:21:20 <nb> rbergeron, oh yeah, i forgot you aren't actually commarch :)
02:21:37 <nb> rbergeron, nope, will send email tonight, sorry, i got sidetracked yesterday
02:21:38 <harish> rbergeron, pong
02:21:41 <nb> i have the email ready
02:21:45 <rbergeron> nb: no problemo
02:22:03 <rbergeron> harish: had some curious folks in the NA ambassador meeting curious about budget status
02:22:14 <rbergeron> ...where we are for the year, etc.
02:23:36 <SGS> `220
02:23:58 <nb> SGS, ?
02:24:01 <harish> rbergeron, yes, i am in the process of updating the budget status
02:24:31 <rbergeron> nb: was there anything specific you were wondering about
02:24:33 <SGS> Ignore that.
02:24:37 <mock> how much is in the budget for next year?
02:24:49 <nb> rbergeron, not really, just how we were progressing
02:24:52 <mock> is there a ball park figure?
02:24:55 * rbergeron nods
02:25:12 <nb> although we do have approx 5000 something that isn't added in yet, so regional support will take a fairly big hit once that is in there
02:25:14 <nb> for media
02:25:18 <rbergeron> mock: you can look at the number on the existing budget page, and probably add... what, 8-10k at bare minimum for media
02:25:25 <rbergeron> between NA and europe
02:25:36 <inode0> how much is left in this year's budget is more interesting to me and whether we should use any of it to stock up some on swag supplies for next year's events?
02:25:45 <rbergeron> inode0: exactly
02:26:06 <mock> how much media do we have in stock?
02:26:10 <rbergeron> harish: so I think the request is more or less "where are we" and if we're going to have money leftover, so that it can get used to prepare for the next FY in terms of swag, etc.
02:26:18 <mock> f16 media, that is
02:26:25 <nb> mock, 0
02:26:26 <rbergeron> so having a good idea of where we are as the year ends is helpful.
02:26:40 <mock> nb: not gotten any yet or used up all we had?
02:26:51 <nb> mock, it is being produced, and i'm following up with the production company
02:26:56 <mock> ok
02:27:08 * nb is considering finding a new company for next year
02:27:18 <nb> i'm not too happy with AMS, especially since brent apparently is gone
02:27:21 <mock> and we ended up with a boatload of stickers from around sept-ish?
02:28:42 <nb> anyone have anything else about budget?
02:28:54 <nb> or any items they want us to look at getting or reordering
02:29:12 <mock> was wondering about pens too
02:29:19 <mock> are we ok on pens?
02:30:05 <SGS> We have a box.
02:30:09 <SGS> Here in VA.
02:30:19 * nb has a good supply of pens
02:30:26 <mock> ok
02:31:42 <harish> rbergeron, yep. i am awaiting some numbers from finance as well - but I think i can safely update to show what I am already aware of.  give me a few hours.
02:32:27 <nb> harish, ok thanks
02:32:33 <nb> #topic open floor
02:32:39 <nb> Ok, what else does anyone have
02:33:08 * inode0 will mention that the 1st fedora raffle completed
02:33:17 <disunited> would it be benificial to have a small group of people meet before the meetings to set agenda leadership ect?
02:33:24 <inode0> we are in the process of shipping prizes to the 30 winners now
02:33:51 <inode0> most are from non-NA countries so we'll likely spend a few hundred dollars shipping this time
02:34:00 * nb would like to see us get a stamps.com or endicia account linked to the credit card
02:34:15 <disunited> perhaps to keep focus.. and if we continue 1 a month should we have a similar pre-meeting so information doesnt get lost in that time?
02:34:31 <inode0> disunited: there is a wiki page for the agenda for each upcoming meeting and it would be really swell if any ambassador added items to it before the meeting
02:34:40 <nb> it'd cost us about 20 or 30/month, but would let any famna shipper ship usps very conveniently
02:35:17 <disunited> inode0, i would be happy to do that if i knew what all we were going to have on the agenda. i am new to the ambassadors so i might need a little guidence
02:35:21 * mock thinks nb is onto something
02:35:45 <nb> the downside is that the shipper would have to use windows when printing labels, they are a software program, not a web based program
02:35:49 <inode0> I don't recall why we didn't before - let me investigate that a bit
02:36:14 <mock> nb: that's seems fundamentally opposing us
02:36:20 <inode0> that would make it impossible for me, I don't do windows anywhere
02:36:25 <nb> mock, yeah.............. thats the bad art
02:36:36 <mock> is there an alternative?
02:37:28 <inode0> disunited: the way it is supposed to work is that ambassadors who are doing things should add those things to the agenda if they wish to report about them or need any help with them
02:38:01 <inode0> there isn't any magic group who knows what should be on the agenda outside of the group of ambassadors doing stuff
02:38:09 <nb> supposedly stamps.com supports web based now
02:38:11 * nb is investigating
02:38:28 <nb> would anyone oppose us trying it for say a month (assuming there is an alternative to requiring windows)?
02:38:49 <disunited> inode0, i realize that, i was juist wondering if a central point of contact for agenda creation might smooth things over is poepl arent adding
02:38:57 <inode0> I don't have any opinion at the moment since I don't know anything about it yet
02:39:16 * mock motions for a 1 month trial of stamps.com as proposed by nb
02:39:34 <inode0> and if it requires linking the credit card to it we'll need to pass that by finance
02:39:45 <mock> if it pans out from nb's investigation
02:42:13 * nb has used them before, and just tried the web based and it looks like it would work for us
02:42:47 * nb is not sure what finance would think hopefully they'd approve, its similar to the way ups works
02:42:50 <rbergeron> nb: eww
02:42:54 * inode0 just suggests we get the details and benefits clear before making any decisions
02:42:58 * rbergeron was just looking at the stamps.com thing
02:43:03 <nb> rbergeron, stamps.com has a totally web based option
02:43:08 <rbergeron> oh
02:43:16 <rbergeron> nb: what were your thoughts on the prepaid shipping boxes?
02:43:25 <nb> rbergeron, i like them and would like to continue using htem
02:43:31 <nb> i'm using some right now for the raffle
02:43:52 <nb> if ups wouldj ust have a more reasonable international option, it'd be nice, but they don't
02:44:11 <nb> although prepaid boxes are easier and more convenient imho for a lot of uses
02:44:25 <inode0> we need to remember that we are trying something new with the credit cards and shouldn't overreach with them, avoiding any problems is important to the long term health and expansion of this method of finance
02:44:53 <nb> inode0, true
02:45:22 <inode0> and since the cards are limited and already linked to multiple places adding more uncertainty about monthly charges applied to them concerns me some
02:45:47 * rbergeron notes that she could do it via her credit card
02:46:03 <inode0> not to the point I would necessarily object if there is a lot of benefit to it and everyone using it was responsible ;)
02:46:08 <rbergeron> inode0: :)
02:46:42 <nb> hmm
02:47:10 <rbergeron> it's up to y'all :)
02:47:16 * nb could possibly test it with a regular account linked to rbergeron credit card before we upgrade to one of the more expensive multiperson accounts
02:47:22 <nb> they support ones that can track who spends money, etc
02:47:37 <inode0> what need is being solved?
02:47:54 <nb> inode0, the need to pay and get reimbursed or have to have rbergeron or inode0 make labels for you
02:48:03 <inode0> I never felt the need when I was doing shipping and really haven't heard anyone else complain
02:48:22 <inode0> well, for NA shipping UPS works, right?
02:48:22 <nb> mainly because of all the international we are doing right now
02:48:32 <nb> but i can handle doing it without it, it was just an idea
02:48:46 <nb> i think if we moved to using usps for a lot of stuff we could save as much as the monthly fee is
02:48:48 <inode0> ok, so that is a special problem that I am not sure affects our entire shipping department :)
02:49:01 <nb> so it is kind of something that could save us money overall imho
02:49:25 <inode0> ok, so perhaps switch entirely from UPS to USPS
02:49:53 <nb> inode0, perhaps
02:50:15 <nb> inode0, we'd need to explore rates more, but from the comparisons ive done, usps has been better for a lot of things
02:50:31 <inode0> I do suspect USPS flat rate domestic shipping would often be cheaper than UPS
02:53:04 <dramsey> +1 for free flat rate boxes, labels and forms with USPS.  Order at usps.com and have the "empty boxes" delivered to your place for free of charge, in order to do your own "boxing" and labeling.
02:53:52 <inode0> well, there are some details in there that make that a little more complicated I think
02:54:10 <rbergeron> well, i have ordered a fwe of the pre-paid flat rate boxes for nb as well.
02:54:17 <inode0> fewer people can do the ordering/labeling that way than can do it now via UPS
02:54:19 <rbergeron> which really lowers the receipt hassle.
02:54:41 <rbergeron> problem is that you don't want to just send everyone a zillion boxes, because... they could vanish :)
02:54:43 <nb> rbergeron, yeah, i wish they offered prepaid intl flat rate boxes
02:54:55 <inode0> UPS will reuse my old amazon boxes which works well for me :)
02:55:21 <rbergeron> inode0: it's more like... free priority mail boxes with the stamp already attached, not paying for actual boxes
02:55:42 <nb> yeah, they'll send free boxes without stamps too
02:55:58 <inode0> right, but still it involves a 3rd party to make happen
02:55:58 <rbergeron> oh, i see what he was getting at
02:57:00 <inode0> being able to just go ship yourself without anyone else needing to intervene is worth a slightly higher price from UPS IMO
02:57:13 <nb> inode0, thats what using stamps.com would do
02:57:24 <nb> usps offers online postage via several different vendors
02:57:30 <nb> they don't have a direct option like ups
02:58:08 <dramsey> nb, I have ordered stamps via USPS.com and the delivery cost for my $2,000 (USD) in stamps was $1 (USD,) food for thought.
02:58:26 <nb> dramsey, this is different
02:58:34 <nb> you can print whatever amount you want
02:58:45 <nb> they do have stamps, but you can't get the exact amount
02:59:55 <dramsey> Ah, understood nb that makes sense.
03:00:56 * inode0 will think about this, I see good points and bad
03:01:05 <dramsey> I have a variety of stamps from $0.01 to $18.30 with variants within that range.  There is also the "print shipping labels" option which saves 15% on postage, too.
03:01:18 <nb> dramsey, yeah, this would get the discount
03:01:30 <dramsey> +1 nb and inode0 and rbergeron
03:01:33 <inode0> I wonder if there is another solution to the occasional international shipping problem
03:02:18 <nb> not really without bugging a cc holder, or unless someone does like i think max did with lcafiero and just gives them the cc number
03:02:21 <inode0> part of our goal of regional ambassadors was to get each region to produce and ship their own resources
03:02:24 <nb> then usps.com's label printer could be used
03:02:37 <nb> inode0, oh, that kind of solution
03:02:39 <inode0> I'm not sure we really should be shipping as much as we do internationally
03:03:09 <nb> true, especially considering the cost of shipping
03:03:17 <nb> shipping costs more than the item is worth a lot of times
03:03:24 <inode0> but if we decide we should, then we really need to solve the problem of how best to do it
03:03:52 <inode0> shipping is an understood cost of business though, just a fact of life
03:04:29 <nb> true
03:04:36 <dramsey> true
03:05:11 <inode0> seeing up close what we spend on shipping I am definitely not opposed to doing things to reduce that cost
03:05:19 <kk4ewt> and with ups there  is a definite paper trail
03:05:40 <nb> kk4ewt, there is with this too, they have all kinds of reports
03:05:59 <nb> (I've used it personally before and have had good experiences and have seen all the tons of reports you can get)
03:06:19 <inode0> I'm inclined to favor a single solution rather than all the shippers needing multiple accounts and learning multiple systems
03:06:23 <kk4ewt> sorry all i was in another meeting
03:06:25 <dramsey> Would a point of contact within the for example, EMEA region be a useful "one shipment" of product, in order to distribute from there?
03:06:42 <nb> inode0, well, actually stamps.com supports more than one shipper under one account
03:06:52 <nb> they'd each get separate usernames, but it'd all be linked to one account
03:06:59 <kk4ewt> dramsey:  then it would cost 50 to ship to them then for them to ship it
03:07:15 <inode0> still, they need account access and still need to learn whatever processes are involved
03:07:18 <nb> inode0, yeah
03:07:39 <dramsey> true kk4ewt and local shipping from the region and corresponding budget as well as workload.
03:08:20 <inode0> perhaps at fudcon we can discuss with other ambassadors about local production vs. shipping from NA
03:08:53 <dramsey> kk4ewt, absolutely very true.  Could be part of the calculus.
03:08:55 <kk4ewt> dramsey: i can see us paying that $50 to send lot of things in someones bag going to EMEA
03:09:06 <inode0> but regardless of that, we always will occasionally need to ship internationally
03:09:28 <kk4ewt> at least 2x a year to canada
03:11:12 <kk4ewt> it may be cheaper to give money to emea to produce the raffle shirts and to distrubute
03:12:05 <inode0> the money isn't a problem
03:12:32 <inode0> we are only talking about something like $300 shipping
03:12:46 <inode0> spending that once in a blue moon to thank our contributors is nothing
03:12:54 <dramsey> +1
03:13:27 <nb> we've been going for over a hour now
03:13:41 <dramsey> Good discussions.  ;)
03:13:46 <nb> my proposal is to have rbergeron use her cc for a regular 1-user account for a month and see how it works, report back at next meeting
03:14:09 <nb> but if the meeting chooses otherwise, that is fine
03:14:21 <nb> that account can easily be upgraded to higher user-limit later if we choose
03:18:04 * nb hears crickets chirping
03:18:05 <inode0> if she can do that for you to use for the raffle shipments I'm all for it
03:18:30 <inode0> we can get experience with it, and solve a pending need
03:18:43 <nb> that was my idea
03:19:28 <rbergeron> okay
03:19:29 <rbergeron> that's fine
03:19:36 <rbergeron> just tell me where to put my information
03:19:48 <nb> ok
03:19:54 <nb> will pm you after meeting
03:19:58 <nb> Anything else for open floor?
03:20:00 <rbergeron> sure
03:20:14 <inode0> yes
03:20:36 <inode0> congratulations to the missing herlo for his new seat on famsco
03:20:48 <nb> yes, congrats herlo
03:20:56 <nb> #info Congratulations herlo on being elected to famsco
03:20:56 <disunited> grats, herlo
03:20:58 <inode0> it is nice to have someone from NA back on famsco
03:21:33 <dramsey> Congratulations herlo  :D
03:23:07 <nb> if nothing else...... will close the meeting
03:23:15 <inode0> please do :)
03:23:24 <nb> #endmeeting