05:04:42 <tagoh> #startmeeting i18n
05:04:42 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 27 05:04:42 2011 UTC.  The chair is tagoh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:04:42 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:04:46 <tagoh> #meetingname i18n
05:04:46 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
05:04:52 <tagoh> #topic agenda and roll call
05:05:03 <tagoh> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2011-10-27
05:05:06 <juhp> hi
05:05:10 <dueno> hi
05:05:20 <tagoh> hi, let's have i18n meeting.
05:05:24 <lijli> hi
05:05:27 <tagoh> who else here?
05:06:18 <epico_laptop> hi
05:08:37 <tagoh> okay, let's get started.
05:08:48 <tagoh> #topic F16
05:09:09 <dingyichen> hi
05:09:30 <jni> hi
05:09:44 <tagoh> thanks for fixing two blocker bugs. we still however have one blocker bug related to translations on PackageKit.
05:10:06 <tagoh> .bug 668282
05:10:08 <zodbot> tagoh: Bug 668282 PackageKit yum backend uses incorrect encoding for dynamic category names, makes them show up with '?' characters in KPackageKit - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=668282
05:10:38 <juhp> hmm yeah
05:11:07 <juhp> I saw it mentioned in adamw's latest mail
05:11:19 <tagoh> as you may read the mail on devel-announce, composing RC1 is postponed and instead will have TC3
05:11:24 <tagoh> juhp: right
05:12:47 <juhp> I probably shouldn't say but kind of amusing this was first reported in January by aalam...
05:13:00 <tagoh> hope we don't have further critical issue on f16 but nice to try to fix bugs as much as possible for updates.
05:13:01 <juhp> did it affect F15 then
05:13:23 <juhp> hm f14 even
05:13:46 <tagoh> juhp: there should be our fault to evaluate it if it's worth as blocker or not and not pushing hard.
05:14:43 <tagoh> we could improve our workflow to avoid issues like this.
05:15:02 <juhp> true
05:15:54 <tagoh> would be nice if everyone read the release criteria and proposing when you file or received a bug, if it meets the requirements
05:16:41 <tagoh> anyway, is there any further concerns on f16?
05:18:33 <juhp> yes
05:19:11 <juhp> fujiwarat, I am wondering if/actually thinking we should turn off the new ibus toggle in F16
05:19:25 <juhp> what do others think?
05:19:49 <juhp> fujiwarat, I mean change the default config to the old behaviour
05:20:05 <tagoh> is it possible in configuration?
05:20:19 <fujiwarat> yes
05:20:24 <juhp> I know it was basically my idea but the new behaviour mostly drives me nuts ;o)
05:20:26 <tagoh> aha
05:20:34 <juhp> tagoh: yeah from Advanced settings
05:21:20 <juhp> fujiwarat, what do you think - perhaps it could be in an early update?
05:23:15 <tagoh> juhp: what are we missing in the front to re-enable this feature? if we don't have particular bugs for that, would be good to file. otherwise it may be hard to keep it on track to enable it again.
05:23:54 <juhp> hmm
05:24:51 <fujiwarat> Actually I don't mind the default.
05:25:29 <juhp> well the main bug is probably "hard to remember the last used input method" - though I am not sure if the new behaviour is so good
05:25:33 <juhp> fujiwarat, I see
05:25:58 <tagoh> is it in bz?
05:25:58 <juhp> so I also suggested that the IM menu should order the input methods in last used order
05:26:04 <juhp> not yet...
05:27:01 <juhp> well if everyone loves the new behaviour maybe it is ok??  though I am slightly worried people using multiple IMEs or layouts (which is surely a minority) may not like it
05:27:14 <juhp> okay I'll open a bug anyway
05:27:17 <fujiwarat> juhp: Do you mean to swap the enabled engine only but not the whole the order?
05:27:35 <tagoh> well, since it may affects to the relnotes, we may need certain bugs to raise it? dunno
05:27:54 <fujiwarat> I still don't understand your suggestion.
05:27:57 <juhp> fujiwarat, I was thinking to list the "IMEs" in last used order order basically
05:28:06 <juhp> hmm
05:28:26 <juhp> fujiwarat, right now no way to tell what Ctrl+Space will do
05:29:16 <juhp> then Ctrl+Space will always toggle the top two listed input methods
05:29:42 <juhp> I think we discussed this idea earlier :)
05:29:59 <tagoh> .bug 747902
05:30:01 <zodbot> tagoh: Bug 747902 the mouse operation on ibus menu makes ctrl+space not working - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=747902
05:30:04 <tagoh> a bit far from the normal usage but likely for newbie users.
05:30:42 <tagoh> it would be a side-effect of this feature, at least in current implementation.
05:31:03 <juhp> yeah that may well be a additional reason to change the default...
05:31:19 <juhp> I also thought I saw such a bug but wasn't completely sure
05:31:35 <juhp> tagoh: I don't think it is so far
05:32:06 <tagoh> juhp: dunno. they may keep using either of the operation perhaps.
05:32:19 <juhp> tagoh: hm true
05:32:33 <juhp> well I often use the menu to switch to another IME anyway
05:32:39 <tagoh> sure
05:32:56 <juhp> and I think that also causes this bug iirc
05:33:18 <tagoh> likely
05:33:46 <juhp> ok maybe we should revisit after that is fixed :)
05:34:25 <tagoh> it's likely missing the default layout if one has two different IMEs installed and click on them from the menu. ctrl+space won't hit the default layout unless one click it on the menu again.
05:34:42 <juhp> but currently because of that bug it isn't possible to change the toggle to another pair of IMEs...
05:35:41 <juhp> so maybe that was the main motivation behind my suggestion - kind of sweeping under the carpet ;) :)
05:35:55 <tagoh> okay, so any thoughts from anyone else?
05:35:59 <juhp> so good report
05:36:13 <fujiwarat> tagoh: I have the fix of your bug.
05:36:26 <tagoh> fujiwarat: great
05:36:47 <juhp> fujiwarat, perhaps we can test it then in updates-testing :)
05:37:00 <juhp> note updates-testing is no longer default now for f16
05:37:46 <juhp> and f16-updates is available
05:37:50 <juhp> I think
05:38:46 <tagoh> juhp: you mean making stable won't go into f16 GA?
05:38:56 <juhp> I don't think so
05:39:04 <juhp> unless it is blocker
05:39:07 <tagoh> right
05:39:48 <juhp> so I guess "dist-f16" is largely frozen now
05:40:46 <tagoh> isn't it frozen a while ago no?
05:40:52 <juhp> yeah last stable push was Monday
05:41:05 <juhp> Subject: last stable push for f16 GA
05:41:14 <juhp> anyway
05:41:53 <juhp> ah NTH also allowed
05:42:14 <juhp> actually that bug is kind of NTH material IMHO
05:42:26 <tagoh> so how about the ctrl+space behavior juhp brought up the above?
05:42:27 <juhp> but probably we can live with an update
05:42:33 <juhp> hmm yeah
05:43:01 <tagoh> I may tend to agree with it.
05:43:17 <juhp> also sorry to continue also ponder sometimes if we could drop ibus-gnome3 from comps this time
05:43:18 <tagoh> but being concerned about relnotes.
05:43:28 <juhp> well like we are splitting the code paths too much
05:43:52 <fujiwarat> Probably I think the latest will be stable.
05:43:59 <fujiwarat> I mean ibus-gnome3.
05:44:05 <juhp> tagoh: well better to fix it than change the behaviour perhaps :)
05:44:16 <juhp> aha
05:44:21 <juhp> okay
05:44:49 <juhp> tagoh, or sorry which relnote?
05:45:26 <tagoh> it should contains i18n beats that contains the description of this feture right?
05:45:28 <juhp> nice that gdm login without mouse
05:45:48 <juhp> tagoh: toggle or indicator?
05:46:08 <tagoh> that may makes different behavior between docs and real.
05:46:10 <juhp> or the bug or comps? :)
05:46:36 <tagoh> juhp: assuming we are talking about toggle
05:46:40 <juhp> anyway I think we should fix that bug as a first step :)
05:46:44 <juhp> okay
05:47:28 <tagoh> isn't it what you are asking at first?
05:47:31 <juhp> any other F16 problems we should think about?
05:47:35 <fujiwarat> because ibus was rebuilt by releng.
05:47:51 <juhp> fujiwarat, aha for gcc?
05:47:58 <tagoh> glibc?
05:48:07 <fujiwarat> tagoh: right
05:48:33 <juhp> tagoh: well fixing your bug should make the toggle behaviour better, no?
05:48:33 <tagoh> does ibus have any thread code?
05:48:50 <juhp> ah yeah glibc
05:49:05 <juhp> was thinking about gcc since it doesn't build right now ;)
05:49:10 <tagoh> juhp: so are you happy with it?
05:49:22 <juhp> for now probably :)
05:49:29 <tagoh> okay
05:49:35 <juhp> I think think my ordering suggestion would make it better
05:50:08 <juhp> the current bug makes it kind of hard to test :)
05:50:40 <juhp> s/think think/still think/
05:51:23 <tagoh> okay, any concerns you mind?
05:51:31 <fujiwarat> Probably I'd need the order with detail.
05:51:47 <tagoh> juhp: good to file a bug with the details
05:51:58 <juhp> yep
05:52:05 <tagoh> good
05:52:05 <juhp> will do that
05:52:17 <tagoh> okay, if nothing, shall we move on then?
05:52:29 <juhp> sure
05:52:37 <tagoh> #topic Input Methods
05:53:00 <tagoh> any updates or news on IM to share?
05:53:14 <tagoh> or even concerns
05:53:19 <dueno> .bug 749450
05:53:21 <zodbot> dueno: Bug 749450 Hide some engines useless under IBus environment - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=749450
05:54:17 <dueno> probably need more input
05:55:59 <tagoh> saw your mail on the list though, did you get any objection to drop one from the candidates?
05:56:50 <tagoh> for ru, vi and zh, you could revisit it later if you don't have enough feedback to get rid of them perhaps.
05:57:16 <dueno> no objection so far - but I posted it yesterday
05:58:11 <dueno> tagoh: yeah, I think better wait for some weeks
06:00:09 <tagoh> IMHO I don't think we do need anthy in m17n at least, because it has less features than ibus-anthy and it has the same backend. we could simply drop if it's really duplicates. otherwise good to have an option to re-enable in configuration say, but disable by default
06:01:14 <tagoh> dueno: yep, sounds good.
06:01:54 <tagoh> okay, anything else?
06:02:48 <tagoh> still no progress on multilib issue for gtk+ in upstream again
06:03:34 <tagoh> seems they maybe not interested in it so much.
06:03:41 <juhp> ...
06:04:01 <juhp> hopefully eventually
06:04:14 <juhp> so just waiting on their side?
06:04:22 <tagoh> I think so
06:04:23 <juhp> ok
06:04:52 <tagoh> at least one of developers asking for it to others.
06:05:21 <tagoh> we seems having one vote. apparently need more.
06:05:31 <tagoh> anyway
06:06:08 <tagoh> better move on if no more topics on IM
06:06:41 <tagoh> #topic Fonts and Rendering
06:07:00 <juhp> (I was going to bring up the gnome/ibus discussion but probably no time now:)
06:07:16 <tagoh> any updates, news or concerns on fonts and rendering?
06:07:43 <tagoh> dueno: or you could start talking about the default font for Korean :)
06:08:45 <dueno> sure - seems ubuntu is going to change the default Korean font to nanum http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/13090
06:08:47 <tagoh> juhp: any urgent?
06:09:50 <juhp> tagoh: well I guess it is more for f17 - we can probably take it off-line
06:09:59 <tagoh> juhp: okay
06:11:06 <tagoh> dueno: sure. sounds promising if ChromeOS and OSX uses it as default.
06:11:18 <juhp> sounds like something we should definitely look at yes
06:11:35 <dueno> not thoroughly evaluated the font yet, but after quick check with fontmatrix, the glyph count is not much different from un - maybe good
06:11:36 <juhp> perhaps we should just make the change for f17 now?
06:11:43 <juhp> aha
06:12:07 <tagoh> it may be too late for f16 and not a good idea IMHO if we do change the default font in updates. so good to propose it for f17
06:12:10 <juhp> anyway probably good to send a headsup/RFC type mail to i18n and devel list?
06:12:34 <juhp> yeah
06:12:53 <juhp> dueno, might be good to add it a default font for Korean though in F16?
06:13:05 <juhp> dunno if that will affect the default though
06:13:06 <juhp> hmm
06:13:21 <tagoh> juhp: may depends on current fontconfig config
06:13:57 <tagoh> juhp: yes, good to ask widely
06:15:25 <juhp> right
06:15:52 <juhp> it sounds like the right thing to do anyway
06:16:01 <tagoh> yeah
06:17:05 <juhp> dueno, maybe also good to cc trans list or trans-ko?? hmm
06:17:55 <dueno> juhp, ok I'll post on the lists later - thanks
06:18:08 <tagoh> okay, anything else?
06:20:49 <tagoh> let's close the meeting then. thanks everyone for the meeting!
06:21:14 <lijli> thanks
06:21:29 <tagoh> #endmeeting