insight
LOGS
20:04:17 <stickster> #startmeeting Insight -- http://tinyurl.com/insight-agenda
20:04:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug 16 20:04:17 2011 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:04:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:04:20 <stickster> #meetingname Insight
20:04:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'insight'
20:04:25 <stickster> #topic Roll call!
20:04:30 * nirik is lurking around.
20:04:31 * asrob is here
20:04:34 * stickster looks for asrob, pcalarco
20:04:40 <stickster> Hi asrob! Sorry I'm a couple minutes late.
20:04:48 <stickster> #chair nirik asrob
20:04:48 <zodbot> Current chairs: asrob nirik stickster
20:04:54 <asrob> hi nirik, stickster
20:04:59 <asrob> stickster, no problem
20:05:04 <stickster> asrob: Did you hear from pcalarco?
20:05:16 <asrob> stickster, no, I did not
20:05:23 <stickster> OK. We'll have to hit him up on the list.
20:05:29 <stickster> Let's review last week's action items really quickly
20:05:35 <stickster> #topic Last week's actions
20:05:57 <stickster> #link http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-mktg/2011-08-09/insight.2011-08-09-20.02.html <-- last week's notes
20:06:08 <stickster> #action stickster check with pcalarco on his action items
20:06:35 <stickster> asrob: Did you mention that features_extra was pending a push to stable in EPEL?
20:07:13 <asrob> stickster, yeah, I did, I got a few email about that a few hours ago
20:07:40 <stickster> asrob: Excellent!
20:07:49 <stickster> Well that means my #actions become imperative now ;-)
20:08:19 <stickster> #action stickster puppetize features_extra usage for all Insight hosts
20:08:32 <stickster> #action stickster Set up puppet configs so stg and prod hosts pull from 'master' branch of fedora-insight-features every 30 min and 4 hrs, respectively
20:08:46 <stickster> #topic Devel status
20:09:20 <stickster> #info With features_extra entering stable, we'll now be able to deploy our basic features directly to the hosts using git!
20:09:30 <asrob> \o/
20:10:33 <stickster> asrob: We do need to be careful now that we have that capability. For instance, it's important not to over-select the dependencies (modules) from a sandbox, so we don't end up with an error on the public systems
20:11:10 <asrob> I see
20:12:11 <asrob> how are we doing this? I mean, can you select the right stuff from my experimental feature set?
20:12:23 <stickster> As an example... if I have a new, unpackaged module installed which is *not* on the Insight systems already,  because I'm testing something new... I need to make sure I don't export that as a Feature's dependency, unless it's already packaged and set up in puppet.
20:12:54 <asrob> yeah, sure, this is important
20:13:44 <stickster> asrob: It's especially important because it will be hard to weed those out from git commits.
20:15:35 <stickster> OK, not much more to say on that, I suppose :-)
20:15:48 <asrob> yep :)
20:15:55 <stickster> #agreed Be careful when exporting features not to overselect dependencies
20:16:45 <stickster> OK... Any other comments on features_extra then?
20:16:53 <asrob> negative
20:17:15 <asrob> what's next?
20:17:24 <asrob> pcalarco, hey :)
20:17:26 <pcalarco> sorry folks, wrong room :(
20:17:30 <pcalarco> hi all
20:17:39 <stickster> Hi pcalarco!
20:17:44 <stickster> #chair pcalarco
20:17:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: asrob nirik pcalarco stickster
20:18:13 <stickster> That's no problem pcalarco. FYI, we publish the meeting schedule/location here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Insight
20:19:06 <stickster> pcalarco: We were just finishing up with news on features_extra -- this is something we needed to be able to deploy the last ~10% of the customizations we make in a repeatable way
20:19:16 <stickster> It's now getting ready to hit EPEL stable.
20:20:07 <pcalarco> that's great news
20:20:08 <stickster> Once drupal6-features_extra is pushed in the EPEL 6 branch, I can fix puppet to pull it onto the appropriate hosts and then we are ready to test deployments on the development server (insight01.dev.fp.o)
20:20:45 * stickster eof
20:20:51 <asrob> stickster, "drupal6-features_extra-1.0-0.1.dev.el6 successfully moved from dist-6E-epel-testing into dist-6E-epel by bodhi" ;)
20:21:13 <asrob> we have to wait for synchronize, I guess
20:21:37 <stickster> asrob: correct -- current status shows up here also: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/search/drupal6-features_extra
20:22:12 <stickster> That shows it's requested to go to stable, but the updates aren't out in the repos yet
20:22:16 <asrob> yeah :)
20:22:21 <stickster> OK, let's move on then
20:22:28 <stickster> #topic Calendar information
20:22:48 <stickster> pcalarco: Now that you're here, did you want to address your Calendar-related items from our last meeting? (Notes: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-mktg/2011-08-09/insight.2011-08-09-20.02.html )
20:24:13 <pcalarco> sure.  Briefly, I thought it might be a worthwhile idea to bring Clint and AdamW to this meeting to review where we are with this, and if anything has changed
20:24:40 * stickster isn't sure who "we" is there
20:24:47 <stickster> is? are? :-)
20:25:25 <pcalarco> well, us here; do we need to reaffirm that the scope of the need is still the same as what's on the wiki for Calendar?
20:26:16 * adamw didn't change anything
20:26:19 <adamw> is that brief enough?
20:26:23 <pcalarco> should the Calendar need expressed be integrated into Insight, or is this distinct from it?
20:26:27 <adamw> sorry, been on f16 alpha firefighting duty
20:26:35 <stickster> Those are basically some barebones requirements that people have put together for a useful calendar. I don't think we need to reaffirm them. It would be nice if someone could put our use cases together with those requirements in a useful way.
20:26:40 <pcalarco> adamw: Hi and thanks!
20:27:15 <asrob> hi adamw
20:27:37 <pcalarco> stickster: okay, great that is a good tangible focus for next step, then perhaps;
20:27:59 <stickster> The question is what to do beyond just knowing what people want, like agreeing on who's going to help define, develop and deploy such a beast.
20:28:43 * adamw still thinks egroupware would do the job fine, but is aware he's beginning to sound like a broken record.
20:29:24 <pcalarco> has any requirements gap analysis been done yet on what's desired there vs. functionality in Drupal modules, for example
20:29:26 <stickster> adamw: I have no dog in that fight. I think the people on this team are open to collaborating on a calendar, but we're not trying to shut out other alternatives.
20:29:51 * nirik notes he could add some anti-requirements. ;)
20:30:13 <stickster> I'm sure it hasn't escaped y'all's notice that I've been struggling more lately to be useful in Fedora, so I'm trying to facilitate putting people like asrob and pcalarco together with anyone who has some cycles to put into development of the solution.
20:30:24 <nirik> I think the wiki page is kinda a mess... needs to be revamped and must/should/nth sectioned.
20:31:09 <stickster> nirik: That would make sense. We also have a use case page at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Insight_use_cases_for_calendar that should be incorporated. At least referenced, but incorporated would prolly be better.
20:31:21 <pcalarco> I can devote some cycles to working on refining the use cases over the next two weeks;
20:32:05 <nirik> I think we have fallen into... 'it should do X' oh, and 'flying ponies would be nice' and 'it should cure world hunger' which is good and all, but means we never get to deploying something that would work for 99% of what we want.
20:32:32 <pcalarco> 80% might be good enough for a start
20:32:39 <asrob> hah, flying ponies... :)
20:32:53 <nirik> yeah...
20:33:14 <nirik> edit and publish a calendar that can be read via ical or synced to $foo
20:33:27 <stickster> nirik: Agreed. And as it turns out the 80% is likely going to be easy to meet quickly.
20:33:47 <pcalarco> maybe take one or two of those use cases, and work on those first, that seem to offer most solution for least effort
20:33:48 <nirik> yeah, we have 5% now, and it's pretty anoying.
20:33:56 <stickster> asrob: I think if we do Calendar development, we should do that as a *separate*directory in the fedora-insight-feature repo.
20:34:13 <asrob> stickster, sure
20:34:37 <stickster> nirik: pcalarco: asrob: OK, so what do we need to do next to make some progress here?
20:34:51 <nirik> perhaps feature/use vs trouble ratio would be good to know.
20:34:54 <pcalarco> what about just tackling Fedora Events to start?
20:35:12 <stickster> nirik: There's a space for that on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Insight_use_cases_for_calendar
20:35:20 <stickster> nirik: I don't think it's been filled out yet.
20:35:24 <nirik> pcalarco: you mean finish that first? or ?
20:35:59 <stickster> nirik: pcalarco: asrob: So here's the thing about events...
20:36:11 <nirik> or use it as 'fedora 16: the event!' ? :)
20:36:34 <stickster> hiemanshu has supposedly been working on a GSoC project for this. However, he hasn't been communicating with us at all about it, despite repeated invitations.
20:36:45 <stickster> He may be making great progress, I simply don't know.
20:37:23 <stickster> I don't want to just expect that an events handling system will be done -- but it might make sense for us to concentrate on providing Fedora team deadlines and meeting schedules to start with.
20:37:43 <pcalarco> sounds reasonable to me
20:37:49 <asrob> +1 from me
20:38:03 <nirik> yeah
20:38:28 <stickster> That's just a suggestion. I could be completely wrong and maybe those aren't the most useful things -- but I'm looking at the Insight use cases, and at least one "huge" win is to be able to see when the meeting room's free, and a medium win for being able to *find* a meeting
20:39:02 <stickster> To be fair... the other "huge" win already detailed on that page is to be able to add an event to the event calendar, and have it kick off a bunch of other really cool stuff.
20:39:28 <nirik> yeah, but thats likely to be more work.
20:39:32 <nirik> but could be in 2.0
20:39:44 <pcalarco> so at one time that was documented on the wiki, but I take it that's no longer the case?
20:40:00 <stickster> But I suspect that effort level is way higher too -- so for a combination of low effort, good return, maybe the meeting room/Fedora production schedule stuff is a good starting poitn
20:40:01 <stickster> *point.
20:40:05 <pcalarco> when meeting rooms were booked with whom, that is
20:40:07 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Calendar_Project
20:40:21 <stickster> pcalarco: It still is -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting_channel
20:40:28 <nirik> pcalarco: it is on the wiki, but it's ugly and hard to edit and prone to fail.
20:40:33 <stickster> nirik: +1
20:41:32 <nirik> also, note we have a zarafa instance we were testing to do calendar. I still need to look at the latest version, but I am pretty convinced it won't work for us.
20:41:49 <pcalarco> are those two separate calendars, or do we want both release dates and meetings on the same
20:42:18 <stickster> I think seeing things in one place, with the ability to filter if desired, would be best
20:42:25 <nirik> right.
20:42:33 <stickster> i.e. Today there's an Infra meeting, and it's also the Feature freeze.
20:42:50 <pcalarco> ok, good
20:42:59 <stickster> OK, so let's get this into actionable stuff.
20:43:22 <pcalarco> so: do we know which are the relevant modules to look at and start playing with?
20:43:26 <stickster> nirik: pcalarco: Did one of you say you were going to revamp the wiki page?
20:43:41 <nirik> I can try, but I'm pretty busy. ;)
20:43:43 <stickster> pcalarco: We can probably work on figuring that out outside the meeting
20:43:52 <pcalarco> I can work on that
20:44:20 <nirik> I'm happy to help. ;)
20:44:43 <pcalarco> so basically update the wiki page with the fact that we're prioritizing to work on these two areas for the next while
20:44:44 <stickster> So what does it need to show when it's done? That way it's easier for pcalarco to get there :-)
20:45:12 <pcalarco> yes, thanks stickster :)
20:45:15 <asrob> :)
20:45:34 <nirik> I'd like to see: 1.0 use cases/target ideas / 2.0 / handywavy future.
20:45:51 <nirik> then we can see what can meet the 1.0 goals.
20:45:55 <nirik> and just do it
20:46:24 <stickster> nirik: OK. pcalarco: You'll find those use cases, at least the two mentioned above, on our Insight page (URL previous, see buffer)
20:46:31 <nirik> right.
20:46:48 <pcalarco> okay, so further refine the use cases on that page to 1.0 and 2.0 and start adding detail on the 1.0 cases and how to accomplish those
20:46:58 <nirik> yeah, sounds good to me.
20:47:14 <stickster> Yup. And you can probably get with asrob to figure out some modules that will be useful. We may have some packaged already.
20:47:46 <asrob> ;)
20:48:06 <stickster> #action pcalarco Revise Insight use cases wiki page to separate into 1.0/2.0/far-future. Add detail to 1.0 only -- targets are providing meeting schedule and production schedule
20:48:19 <stickster> Is that legible?
20:48:27 * nirik nods.
20:48:35 <pcalarco> +1
20:48:37 <asrob> yeah, that is
20:48:55 <stickster> Cool
20:49:16 <stickster> OK, asrob, you can help pcalarco out with some module advice -- but let's be careful not to let the technology drive the use cases.
20:49:34 <stickster> In other words, don't pick the horse before you know what kind of race it is ;-)
20:49:35 <asrob> okay, I'll try :)
20:50:44 <pcalarco> I'll start by revising this page and then update logistics, and then we could talk about modules next mtg?
20:51:00 <asrob> sure
20:51:10 <stickster> pcalarco: I'd like to see some of that conversation on the list before the next meeting, rather than waiting a week to do the next step.
20:51:21 <stickster> I think the combination of a clear roadmap, and some conversation btw. you and asrob, will get us through next week. What I'd like to see at the next meeting is an estimate of what you guys think is feasible to do, and the modules that will do it.
20:51:27 * nirik would welcome any progress. ;)
20:51:29 <pcalarco> I'll aim to get this done by Thursday PM
20:52:00 <stickster> That sounds awesome.
20:52:04 <asrob> cool
20:52:08 <pcalarco> then we have time for discussion prior to next wk
20:52:14 <stickster> Yup
20:52:16 <stickster> Perfect
20:52:28 <stickster> OK, I'm going to open the floor in case there's something we haven't covered
20:52:33 <stickster> Any objections?
20:52:39 <asrob> --
20:52:43 <pcalarco> --
20:52:50 <stickster> #topic Open floor -- AOB
20:52:54 * nirik has a hopefully short open floor item...
20:52:58 <stickster> #info All Other Business!
20:53:03 <stickster> Go nirik!
20:53:21 <nirik> In infrastructure we do freezes of production/important stuff before alpha/beta and final releases...
20:53:29 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/browser/architecture/Environments.png
20:53:30 <stickster> *nod
20:53:42 <nirik> I noticed I didn't have any insight in there except insight01.dev
20:53:53 <nirik> where should the production insight be? support?
20:54:04 <nirik> or do you feel it should never been totally frozen?
20:54:07 <stickster> I see insight01.stg on the list too
20:54:24 <nirik> oh yeah, sorry, stg is there.
20:54:56 <nirik> it's the production one thats missing.
20:55:15 <stickster> nirik: So you may need to give some advice on host resources, and how much Insight would affect their stress level during release time frame. My bet is that our server is not that busy, but I have no numbers in front of me. :-)
20:55:30 <nirik> yeah, not likely to be that busy yet...
20:55:39 <nirik> but as we add more things it hopefully will get more busy. ;)
20:55:50 <stickster> Very true
20:56:10 <nirik> I would say it's either support or value added. ;) depending on how important the resources are...
20:56:19 <nirik> ie, if it went down right at release time, would it matter?
20:56:31 <stickster> nirik: Right now, I would say absolutely not.
20:56:43 <nirik> right.
20:56:45 <stickster> nirik: I would also say, we should reconsider that again in the pre-F17 time frame.
20:57:01 <nirik> so, how about I add it in value added (no freeze) and we re-evaluate later...
20:57:03 <nirik> yeah
20:57:14 <stickster> Any other opinions? pcalarco? asrob?
20:57:25 <asrob> I agree with you
20:57:51 <stickster> #agreed Insight production host goes into value-add category in Infra environment chart for now, with option to revisit pre-F17.
20:57:51 <nirik> if we add calendar and people start depending on it to see when release or other milestones it might be more critical.
20:57:55 <pcalarco> this sounds reasonable to me; I defer to you guys on this
20:58:00 <stickster> nirik: Does that #agreed work for you?
20:58:07 <nirik> yep. sounds great
20:58:13 <stickster> I should have done #idea and votes, but meh
20:58:27 <stickster> Avoid votes whenever unnecessary ;-)
20:58:45 <pcalarco> !
20:58:50 <stickster> Cool, thanks for bringing that up nirik! That was a great subject which had slipped my mind.
20:58:54 <stickster> Go pcalarco! :-D
20:58:57 <pcalarco> quick update on recruiting FWN folk for Insight; I haven't heard back from anyone yet, and will ping them again; it is still on my radar; I think some folk are still on summer holidays
20:59:00 <stickster> "Go go Gadget!"
20:59:18 <stickster> pcalarco: Right, EU is especially hard to wrangle at some points in summer.
20:59:45 <stickster> pcalarco: Do you want us to check in on this again next week, or when?
21:00:14 <pcalarco> perhaps after the start of Sept. when people are back
21:00:20 <stickster> OK.
21:00:27 <stickster> #action pcalarco Give update on recruiting FWN team members in September. (rotate this item until needed)
21:00:36 <stickster> That's all I got, and we're out of time folks!
21:00:40 <stickster> Good to end?
21:00:47 * nirik nods.
21:00:52 <nirik> thanks for running things stickster
21:01:00 <asrob> yeah
21:01:03 <stickster> Thanks for coming nirik, pcalarco, adamw, asrob :-)
21:01:06 <stickster> #endmeeting