20:00:05 <smooge> #startmeeting infrastructure
20:00:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 10 20:00:05 2011 UTC.  The chair is smooge. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:12 <smooge> #meetingname infrastructure
20:00:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'infrastructure'
20:00:16 * CodeBlock is here
20:00:22 <smooge> #chair skvidal smooge ricky
20:00:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: ricky skvidal smooge
20:00:23 * phuzion is here
20:00:27 <smooge> #topic roll call
20:00:28 * nirik is around.
20:00:29 * skvidal is here
20:00:42 * CodeBlock is still here ;D
20:00:45 <smooge> #topic agenda
20:00:48 * fchiulli is listening from the bleachers
20:00:55 <smooge> a) freeze starts monday
20:01:13 <smooge> b) sysadmin removal process
20:01:20 <smooge> c) sysadmin training process
20:01:36 <smooge> d) other topics
20:01:39 <smooge> e) open floor
20:01:50 <smooge> #topic Alpha Freeze
20:02:05 * ricky 
20:02:29 <smooge> Ok Monday we go into alpha freeze. So any changes and such you want to get done, do them by Sunday :)
20:03:04 <smooge> Freeze will end March 03 if we don't slip
20:03:09 * goozbach sneaks in...
20:03:47 * mdomsch 
20:03:54 <smooge> any items? this is my first freeze without mmcgrath reminding me how to do things.. :)
20:04:45 <ricky> .link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fedora-infrastructure.git;a=blob;f=architecture/Environments.png;h=64af00311baa2ed78041dbe206a49b089ef9eaab;hb=HEAD
20:05:08 <smooge> cool ricky
20:05:08 <ricky> #link http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fedora-infrastructure.git;a=blob;f=architecture/Environments.png;h=64af00311baa2ed78041dbe206a49b089ef9eaab;hb=HEAD
20:05:47 <smooge> so we will be only freezing stuff in grey this time
20:06:01 <smooge> ok I think that covers it so ... next topic
20:06:13 <smooge> #topic Sysadmin Removal Process
20:06:21 <smooge> or I like to call it Order 66
20:06:23 <mdomsch> anyone in sysadmin-web can edit the mirrors/releases.txt file
20:07:14 <smooge> oh crap that reminds me.. I need to make a ticket for this and go over the items in a freeze.
20:07:22 <smooge> #topic Alpha Freeze
20:07:47 <smooge> i am typing slow ... one hand
20:08:40 <nirik> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Infrastructure_SOP#Change_Freeze
20:09:09 <smooge> nirik thanks... my google failed by looking for greeze
20:09:48 <smooge> i put a small hole in my thumb yesterday with a drill and not typing wekll
20:10:13 <nirik> ouch.
20:10:22 <smooge> I need someone to update the trac instnnce with F15 tickets
20:11:03 <smooge> volunteers or doers?
20:11:25 <CodeBlock> not sure what needs to be done exactly
20:11:33 <smooge> after this meeting I will open all the tickets and put this into fedoraadminchan
20:11:34 <nirik> I suppose I could if no one else wants to. ;)
20:11:38 <smooge> fedora-admin-channel
20:11:44 <ricky> Ow :-(  Happy to help out.
20:12:08 * skvidal returns and reads scroll back - what do you need in the tickets?
20:12:22 <smooge> normally there is a ticket per step
20:12:53 <smooge> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/report/9 shows the tickets for F14
20:13:00 <smooge> we do this for alpha, beta, release
20:13:01 <nirik> all the ones listed except for final release only items.
20:13:48 <smooge> here is where a click and clone feature in trac would be nice :).
20:14:39 <smooge> ok I am sorry for not being ahead on this. but mainly we need to work with mdomsch on the mirroring, and then start updating scripts to look for 15
20:15:19 <smooge> any questions? [please have some, typing pm thumb hurst
20:16:03 <mdomsch> the mirroring tickets should all get opened, then closed when the bits land and I verify MM automagically found the new bits
20:16:09 <skvidal> thumb hurst sounds like a band name
20:16:42 <smooge> :)
20:16:55 <smooge> mdomsch, cool. will do so
20:17:08 <gholms> Heh
20:17:51 <skvidal> so is thast it for alpha?
20:19:01 <smooge> yes
20:19:13 <skvidal> okat
20:19:19 <smooge> I would like to switch to transifex so glezos doesnt stat to long
20:19:21 <skvidal> so onto removal of admins?
20:19:24 <skvidal> ah okay
20:19:30 <smooge> #topic Transifex
20:19:41 <skvidal> glezos: we want to moved transifex in fedora to running at tx.net
20:19:45 <skvidal> so we won't be hosting our own anymore
20:20:15 <skvidal> anyone upset about that?
20:20:35 <CodeBlock> not at all
20:20:37 <glezos> skvidal: I think this is a good move. Our version is quite old, and our L10n suffers because of that.
20:20:38 <skvidal> yay
20:20:42 <skvidal> yep
20:20:43 <ricky> So how/when do we want to do this?  :-)  Could be be done in a way that interferes minimally with the current release cycle?
20:21:00 <ricky> (Well, less than the currently slowness of our transifex interferes at least :-/)
20:21:37 <glezos> I prototyped how this would look like in the first place, here's the fedora page there:
20:21:38 <glezos> http://www.transifex.net/projects/p/fedora/r/fedora-15/
20:22:36 <ricky> Awesome.  And you were able to do that without making changes on the maintaier side?
20:22:52 <ricky> That's the part I'm wondering the most about - how to smoothly get all the maintainers onto the new tx workflow
20:23:11 <dgilmore> can we do this and still use fas for auth?
20:23:36 <glezos> ricky: yup. Transifex 1.0 does not require us to give git/hg/foo commit access. Instead, it watches an HTTP link to update english files and sports a command-line tool so that the developer can pull translations in his git tree before a release.
20:23:55 <glezos> dgilmore: no. But, we will have translation teams, which is even better.
20:24:01 <ricky> That's another question - do we want go for FAS auth and the challenges that come with that
20:24:05 <skvidal> no
20:24:08 <skvidal> do not link it to fas
20:24:11 <ricky> I'd personally be fine with giving up FAS auth
20:24:17 <glezos> ie. Greek translators will now not have access to French, for example.
20:24:53 <glezos> If at some point FAS can act as an OpenID provider, then we could make Tx act as a client to it.
20:25:20 <glezos> The only reason to use FAS is the CLA, and Transifex.net does support a CLA for a project.
20:25:23 <ricky> Thta would be a very nice solution - we were chatting a bit about openid at fudcon.
20:25:25 <abadger1999> glezos: Should that be working now?  If so we should test whether fas's openid provider works with it.
20:25:37 <skvidal> that's what I was going to ask -
20:25:42 <skvidal> if the CLA is a limitation
20:25:43 <ricky> (We spoke to spot about this and he said the CLA stuff shouldn't be a problem)
20:25:45 <skvidal> we may need to bug spot
20:25:49 <skvidal> ah excellent
20:25:55 <skvidal> then if there is a switch we can flip
20:25:57 <skvidal> let's flip it
20:26:02 <skvidal> quickly
20:26:07 <ricky> Or at least I cornered him at FUDCon and he said something to that effect - always good to get it in writing :-)
20:26:16 <glezos> abadger1999: We'll need to code it, the support is not developed yet.
20:26:30 <ricky> So we'd need to get a list of projects/maintainers currently on our transifex
20:26:42 <abadger1999> glezos: okay.  I don't think openid=>fas should be a blocker.
20:26:47 <ricky> Then notify them to do a move over, and at the same time notify translators when projects have moved
20:26:49 <abadger1999> just a "nice to have"
20:26:54 <ricky> Does that sounds like the general plan?
20:27:04 <skvidal> ricky: it does
20:27:11 <skvidal> ricky: should we open a ticket?
20:27:12 <glezos> ricky: I suggest to create all projects on Txn with us as maintainers (to hurry things up) and gradually give maintainership to developers (as they create their accounts)
20:27:57 <glezos> I should make it clear once again that Transifex 1.0 does NOT support git commit. Developers will need to run 'tx pull' to fetch translations.
20:28:15 * ricky is a much bigger fan of this design :-)
20:28:25 <ricky> And I hope maintainers will be too
20:28:25 <glezos> Adv: security (no commit access), no po files in repo if developer chooses, AND...
20:28:27 * nirik thinks this sounds like a win all around.
20:28:27 <smooge> glezos, which developers
20:28:34 <glezos> ... the possibility of having Language Packs! :)
20:28:43 <glezos> smooge: project maintainers.
20:28:54 <abadger1999> glezos: to what extent do we (infra) need to interface with the translation teams/maintainers to get them to move?
20:28:58 <glezos> All info for this design change can be found here: http://help.transifex.net/user-guide/one-dot-zero.html
20:29:02 <ricky> smooge: The developer would do something like a tx pull as part of their release process to get all the newest translations, I think
20:29:17 <smooge> so this needs to be tied into fedpkg somehow?
20:29:27 <ricky> smooge: Nope, this isn't package maintaiers, it's upstream software maintainers
20:29:36 <smooge> ooooh ok
20:29:44 <ricky> But that touches stuff like anaconda, our docs, and a bunch of other projects on and off fedorahosted
20:29:54 <abadger1999> glezos: Are you able to speak for the translators being onboard and eager to switch?  Do we (infra) need to start pinging developers and telling them their new workflow?
20:30:14 <glezos> smooge: it can be tied into the Makefile e.g. 'make dist' I guess. But even in koji, if we choose to. I'm more inclined to go towards lang packs TBH. But this is another discussion/topic, for RelEng.
20:31:07 <glezos> abadger1999: translators are very easy. Their workflow is exactly the same. When we flip the switch we'll just do good .htaccess redirects.
20:31:59 <smooge> ok lets get a written workflow, a bunch of posts of what is going to change and when, get it onto rbergeron's calenders and Go Speed Transifex GO
20:32:41 <ricky> OK, I'm going to create one ticket for the migration and point all the other transifex tickets at it
20:33:02 * nirik nods. that sounds sane. A plan for the migration and timeline would be good to add too.
20:33:26 <ricky> glezos: I'll make you the owner on it - could you put in your migration plan when you get a chance?
20:33:35 <glezos> There are a couple of extra things which will come up sooner or later, I guess.
20:33:49 <ricky> Then we can refine it in comments and DO IT :-)
20:34:04 <glezos> One is whether we'll have any needs for support services (ie. not community/volunteer time etc)
20:34:18 <smooge> glezos, from a practical standpoint what do you think we could roll this out?
20:34:34 <glezos> And the other is to see how many strings/words in total we'll put on the poor server. :)
20:35:30 <glezos> ricky: do we have any picture on these?
20:35:46 <smooge> could we aim for beginnging of arpil
20:36:03 <ricky> I can probably do some data mining in our scratchdir to get the counts of strings
20:36:06 <glezos> smooge: that also depends on our release schedule, I suppose.
20:36:52 <smooge> beta freeze begins march 22
20:37:15 <smooge> so I would like to see if before or after that ends in early april (sorry bad thumb)
20:37:20 <glezos> I see 11K for virt, 3K for websites, 6K for various, and ~14K for the release.
20:37:52 <glezos> (got those from the transltae.fpo releases page)
20:38:08 * nirik notes http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/15/Schedule
20:38:16 <skvidal> glezos: we should talk about that some
20:38:21 <skvidal> glezos: outside of the channel
20:38:25 <glezos> skvidal: okey.
20:38:54 <glezos> skvidal: I can try to break down what we need to do and when. okey?
20:39:07 <skvidal> glezos: that'd be great
20:39:24 <glezos> smooge: The string freeze is Feb 15
20:39:30 <glezos> and deadline Mar 15
20:39:39 <glezos> This means that the migration should happen... in the next 5-10 days.
20:39:47 <smooge> ok cool.
20:39:52 <smooge> let me know what I can do to help
20:40:17 <smooge> s/I/we/
20:40:26 <ricky> Same here - I'm not sure we can get responses from all maintainers in that short a time
20:40:27 <smooge> and we will get it done
20:40:40 <ricky> But every project we can get moved over is a benefit to Fedora :-)
20:41:17 <skvidal> ricky: +1
20:42:09 * nirik nods.
20:42:14 <skvidal> okay next item? removing old sysadmins?
20:43:10 <smooge> #topic Removing Sysadmins
20:43:44 <smooge> Ok I have spent the weekend and nights working out who has logged into systems in the last 60 days and who hasn't
20:43:46 <nirik> wouldn't that only leave youngsters like ricky? :)
20:43:54 <skvidal> nirik: I am young and vibrant
20:44:17 <skvidal> nirik: I look old b/c of yum and rpm. It sucks from you the will to live :)
20:44:36 <smooge> http://smooge.fedorapeople.org/sysaccounts-to-remove.txt is a list of people who are in various sysadmin groups but have not been active outside of maybe people/hosted/cvs01/pkgs01
20:44:37 <nirik> ha.
20:44:47 <gholms> Heh
20:45:08 <smooge> http://smooge.fedorapeople.org/sysaccounts-to-keep.txt is the list of people who are still active
20:45:23 <nirik> so this is people in any sysadmin-* group?
20:45:31 <smooge> nirik, yep
20:45:56 <ricky> I don't see anybody I've seen recently
20:45:57 <smooge> I put them all in one list, spun it around, and comm it with a list of people who had loggedinto systems
20:46:07 <ricky> I know tibbs used to login for sysadmin-cvs stuff - not sure if that's needed for cvsadmin work anymore.
20:46:14 * nirik has seen many of those people in other contexts...
20:46:31 <smooge> I had forgotten oiginally the publictest systems but once I got their data that made sure I didn't miss fchiulli and such
20:46:33 <ricky> Er, tibbs|h
20:47:09 <smooge> so what to do?
20:47:16 <smooge> 1) Order 66. Sysadmin Purge.
20:47:21 <marchant> i am in the list to remove
20:47:23 <mdomsch> smooge: quite a few familiar names, but none that I can recall doing any active work lately in regard to sysadmin
20:47:36 <marchant> but I can't logon to anything (yet)
20:47:38 <ricky> So I guess we spam them with a "hi, you're being removed due to inactivity, go feel free to go through the join process again if you need access again"
20:47:42 <ricky> Then remove?
20:47:46 <smooge> 2) Send out emails, find out who is still interested and have them login into a system.
20:47:48 <skvidal> marchant: you're going to be in a new group
20:47:56 <marchant> thanks
20:48:04 <smooge> yes.. sorry my sort is not good to cover that
20:48:17 <marchant> i got excited
20:48:23 <smooge> people who are removed could be put into fi-apprentice
20:48:24 <ricky> Or we could spam and remove those that don't reply within X  - that works too, just a little more to keep track of
20:48:26 <skvidal> marchant: no problem
20:48:47 <mdomsch> requirement to keep account is to log in to {bastion/puppet01} ?
20:48:47 <phuzion> ricky: I think the email idea is a great way to at least narrow down the list a little bit.
20:49:15 <smooge> mdomsch, I believe that is what the document says... can't find reference
20:49:27 <ricky> The logic with the "remove, ask questions later" (apart from less work) is that if you haven't done anything in the past few months, stuff may have changed since anyway.
20:49:32 <ricky> But I'm OK with either way :-)
20:49:32 <smooge> mdomsch, I made it that people who had logged into any Fedora system
20:49:39 * nirik is fine with either way.
20:49:53 <skvidal> smooge: nod
20:50:02 <smooge> well except people,pkgs,hosted,cvs
20:50:16 <smooge> only people who sudod on those I counted
20:50:20 <phuzion> Just send out a mass email to everyone on the list, and basically say 'You haven't logged into a FI machine in a long time.  If you wish to remain in the sysadmin-groups that you are in, please log into a machine.  We will run this check again in y days, and if you have not logged in by then, you will be {{removed/demoted/moved to another group}}'
20:50:38 <skvidal> phuzion: no
20:50:42 <skvidal> I don't agree with that
20:50:49 <skvidal> tell them we've not heard from them in a long while
20:50:54 <smooge> well the thing I don't want is people who do that just to stay in and then go to sleep for 90 days again
20:51:02 <skvidal> and not seen any activity meriting the need for sysadmin group access
20:51:16 <skvidal> if you believe this is in error, please contact someone in #fedora-admin or at admin@fp.o
20:51:20 <skvidal> and we can talk about it
20:51:30 <skvidal> but if we send them an email saying 'login and it goes away'
20:51:31 <phuzion> skvidal: Of course, the wording in my email wasn't exactly what I was going to say to send out
20:51:32 <skvidal> they'll login
20:51:37 <nirik> the current page says "Anyone who has not logged in during a 6 month span is removed from all groups granting them this access. No exceptions." btw
20:51:48 <smooge> oh 6 months
20:51:54 <phuzion> Oh, nice, nirik
20:52:03 <skvidal> right
20:52:05 <smooge> I was told 60 days. link?
20:52:12 <nirik> if we remove them, we should probibly do it sometime when lots of sponsors are around to re-sponsor people if they need back in.
20:52:13 <smooge> so I can see where I scrwed up
20:52:15 <skvidal> but 6months is the drop-dear time
20:52:18 <nirik> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingSponsored
20:52:21 <skvidal> err drop dead time
20:52:30 <nirik> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/GettingSponsored#Grounds_for_removal
20:52:30 <skvidal> but it doesn't mean we can't cull earlier than that
20:52:37 <nirik> there might be a conflicting one somewhere else.
20:52:53 <smooge> ah ok thanskl
20:53:08 <sijis> maybe 6months is choosen as that's similar to a release period?
20:53:17 <skvidal> likely
20:53:20 <nirik> could be, yeah.
20:53:48 <smooge> the issue I am wanting to do is to be able to move into the next stage.. which my slow typoing has not gtoten me to finish
20:53:48 <nirik> we might want to tie this to releases... do something like this every post release time...
20:54:51 <nirik> anyhow, how about re-running it on 6months, then remove everyone on the toberemoved list. ;)
20:55:12 <skvidal> or
20:55:15 <skvidal> we could just change the rules
20:55:17 <smooge> ok since I started this in January :)... we will call it the first one :)
20:55:26 <skvidal> seriously
20:55:30 <skvidal> just change the rules
20:55:33 <skvidal> we're not running a gov't here
20:55:36 <nirik> skvidal: sure, that works too. ;)
20:55:43 <smooge> ok I am changing it to 60 dyas
20:55:52 <skvidal> anyone here object to it going from6 months to 60days?
20:55:56 <skvidal> do we remove anyone's data?
20:56:12 <sijis> not here
20:56:19 <nirik> if they loose their account on puppet1, does that nuke their homedir?
20:56:50 <smooge> nirik, I am not sure.
20:56:52 <marchant> do homes get backed up?
20:56:56 <ricky> The home dir gets marked 700
20:57:01 <ricky> Nothing gets deleted automatically
20:57:10 <skvidal> yah
20:57:11 <skvidal> wtogami
20:57:15 <skvidal> is a nexample
20:57:19 <ricky> And yeah, they're backed up too
20:57:20 <smooge> correct nigelj is still there
20:57:22 <nirik> cool.
20:57:34 <smooge> ok we are fast approaching being kicked out by the cool kids again
20:57:38 <abadger1999> eh... 6months seems like a better regular thing.
20:57:45 <skvidal> abadger1999: why?
20:57:56 <abadger1999> but we could do less this time around since we haven't been good about it.
20:57:59 <skvidal> abadger1999: how about every 60 days - it's still got a 6 in it
20:58:11 <sijis> haha
20:58:14 <ricky> Heh.
20:58:20 <nirik> well, someone might come along and help with part of a release, but not have much to do the rest? ie, things that only happen early?
20:58:33 <abadger1999> b/c of matching the release cycle -- there's tasks that are best done once a release.
20:58:34 <smooge> change is made in wiki. we can discuss this next week if it is a problem
20:58:36 <skvidal> okay
20:58:37 <skvidal> but again
20:58:39 <skvidal> if that happens
20:58:42 <ricky> I know abadger1999 has a bunch of habitual pkgdb contributors who maybe make a change and need sysadmin-test to test it every once in a while
20:58:44 <skvidal> we're not purging accounts
20:58:50 <abadger1999> <nod>
20:59:03 <skvidal> we're just saying apply to the group
20:59:04 <skvidal> aren't we?
20:59:06 * rbergeron feels cloudy and light-headed.. no, just cloudy
20:59:07 <nirik> right. they can get readded. and we can revisit if it's a longer term issue.
20:59:20 <ricky> Yup, we can make it really clear that they're welcome to rejoin
20:59:27 <jsmith> rbergeron: Cloudy, with a chance of thundersnow?
20:59:44 <abadger1999> skvidal: Sure.
21:00:10 <goozbach> jsmith: did you get thundersnow yesterday?
21:00:31 <skvidal> okay we're over time
21:00:34 <smooge> ok I think we are done here. Change has been made. I will put out email (once I figure out how to do a mass email), and we will go over new method next week
21:00:37 <jsmith> goozbach: We got an inch of snow overnight -- just enough to get school canceled :-(
21:00:40 <smooge> #endmeeting