15:02:53 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig
15:02:53 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb  8 15:02:53 2011 UTC.  The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:53 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:03:09 <rdieter> #topic roll call
15:03:18 <rdieter> hi, who's present today?
15:03:25 * rnovacek is here
15:03:31 * thomasj here
15:04:19 <rdieter> than_, Kevin_Kofler, SMParrish, kde*foo : ping
15:04:26 <Kevin_Kofler> Present.
15:04:31 <than_> present
15:05:41 <rdieter> #info rnovacek thomasj Kevin_Kofler than rdieter present
15:05:45 <rdieter> #topic agenda
15:05:59 <rdieter> don't have much of an agenda today, so what to discuss today?
15:06:14 <than> kdepim status
15:06:30 <Kevin_Kofler> I think jreznik wanted to put branding on the agenda yet again.
15:06:31 <thomasj> k3b taglib maintainer?
15:06:49 <Kevin_Kofler> (in comps and in the wiki)
15:07:36 <rdieter> #info agenda topics:  kdepim status, orphaned pkgs (k3b, taglib), branding
15:07:49 <rdieter> f15 artwork/theming
15:08:06 * ltinkl is a bit late
15:08:13 <Kevin_Kofler> Maybe we can also discuss touchpad configuration (kcm_touchpad vs. synaptiks vs. ?), but I think we should stick with kcm_touchpad until it's clear where things are going with synaptiks.
15:08:28 <rdieter> #info ltinkl arives, is present
15:08:35 <Kevin_Kofler> (The Python rewrite hasn't been picked up by distros yet.)
15:08:58 <rdieter> #info fc15 artwork/theming
15:09:08 <rdieter> alright, that's enough for now, let's get started
15:09:12 <rdieter> #topic kdepim status
15:09:36 <rdieter> 2 meetings ago, we deferred the decision to stick with kdepim-4.6 betas for f15 or not
15:09:48 <rdieter> well, time has come, feature freeze is now upon us.
15:09:48 <jreznik_n900> for artwork, I will take a look tmrw, I HAVE TRAINING now
15:10:20 <rdieter> #info jreznik_n900 in training, present in spirit :)
15:11:01 <Kevin_Kofler> Re kdepim, I vote to defer until ~2 weeks before the "features 100% complete" deadline @ Beta freeze.
15:11:16 <ltinkl> as for the kdepim situation, I'd rather stick with the stable 4.4 series
15:11:21 <rdieter> guess the main decision to make now is to decide if kdepim is at least testable,
15:11:26 <than> yes, it's time we should make decision for kdepim in f15
15:11:42 <jreznik_n900> I do not believe it will be ready, it is sad but... does not work for me now at all
15:11:46 <rdieter> though I'm not sure if waiting ~2 weeks will make any difference
15:11:49 <than> yes, i prefer the stable 4.4
15:12:01 <rnovacek> Its kinda work for me
15:12:09 <ltinkl> miracles won't happen in 2 weeks
15:12:20 <Kevin_Kofler> My proposed decision point is 4 weeks from now.
15:12:26 <Kevin_Kofler> Beta Change Deadline is March 22.
15:12:29 <rnovacek> but the experience is still much worse then 4.4
15:12:31 <Kevin_Kofler> 2 weeks before that is March 8.
15:12:34 <Kevin_Kofler> We're now Feb 8.
15:12:56 * rdieter hunts for kdepim release schedule
15:13:00 <ltinkl> I'm fine with further delaying but the result is omho obvious already now
15:13:21 <jreznik_n900> ltinkl, +1
15:13:26 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: Is there even any?
15:13:33 <rdieter> I think there is, but can't find it atm
15:13:33 <thomasj> I doubt that
15:13:35 <ltinkl> besides, there's life after F15 ;)
15:13:54 <rdieter> I agree with ltinkl though, we're delaying the inevitable here
15:14:05 <ltinkl> definitely
15:15:05 <thomasj> Do we need to vote?
15:15:15 <rdieter> ok, proposal: revert to kdepim-4.4.x asap  (in time for f15 alpha)
15:15:38 <thomasj> +1
15:15:39 <rdieter> do vote on that ^^ please.
15:15:55 <Kevin_Kofler> -1 (features don't need to be 100% complete nor 100% bug-free by alpha)
15:16:03 <than> +1
15:16:14 <ltinkl> +1
15:16:25 <Kevin_Kofler> There's 6 weeks left until the deadline where they need to be 100% complete.
15:16:40 <rdieter> +1 (i'll ping upstream wrt release schedule, if there's going to be any more test releases soon)
15:16:45 <Kevin_Kofler> We might have a stable 4.6.0 by then, or something close to it.
15:16:50 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: it won't be usable enough, don't be naive :)
15:16:51 <thomasj> haha
15:17:33 <Kevin_Kofler> ltinkl: We're there to ship new stuff as soon as upstream thinks it's stable.
15:17:37 <Kevin_Kofler> It's one of our objectives.
15:17:50 <ltinkl> upstream doesn't think it's stable, quite the opposite
15:17:52 <Kevin_Kofler> Sometimes we even ship stuff BEFORE upstream thinks it's stable.
15:18:03 * thomasj missed the upstream mail where it says kdepim 4.6 is stable
15:18:08 <rdieter> looks like we have a plan, I'll consult our upstream here before doing anything and report back
15:18:27 <Kevin_Kofler> (Fedora released with betas of apps more than once.)
15:18:53 <ltinkl> seriously, it's not even alpha quality
15:18:56 <thomasj> Kevin_Kofler, it's about mail. Daily usage
15:18:58 <ltinkl> ymmv
15:18:58 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: The thing is, if you all want to revert before the alpha, you have only 1 week left.
15:19:08 <Kevin_Kofler> Alpha Change Deadline is Feb 15.
15:19:10 <rdieter> #agreed will consult upstream, but kde-sig is largely agreed to revert to kdepim-4.4.x
15:19:29 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: I'll consult today, revert then (or tomorrow)
15:19:38 <Kevin_Kofler> thomasj: I think Fedora shipped Thunderbird betas more than once.
15:19:59 <Kevin_Kofler> I even remember an update from a beta to a newer one which caused a big mess.
15:20:00 <thomasj> Kevin_Kofler, might be, but think about if kmail explodes into our endusers faces :)
15:20:10 <ltinkl> I don't use Thunderbird, I don't mind if it's broken for everyday usage
15:20:15 <Kevin_Kofler> :-)
15:20:21 <thomasj> Kevin_Kofler, and kdepim will *not* be ready in f15 time
15:20:46 <ltinkl> let's move on :)
15:20:56 <Kevin_Kofler> thomasj: At least it'd get us some press. :-)
15:21:03 <thomasj> indeed :)
15:21:07 <jreznik_n900> lol
15:21:16 <Kevin_Kofler> And maybe some diversion on the MLs from the usual "Evolution is broken" threads. :-)
15:21:22 <thomasj> haha
15:21:26 <rdieter> moving on...
15:21:31 <thomasj> Yes please
15:21:43 <Kevin_Kofler> move on ++
15:21:43 <rdieter> #topic orphaned pkgs (k3b, taglib, ...)
15:22:11 <ltinkl> I agreed to take taglib maintainership
15:22:14 <rdieter> I comaintain each, but I'm largely just a package monkey here, if anyone else went to step in and help, go for it.
15:22:20 <jreznik_n900> rnovacek should take k3b maint.
15:22:26 <thomasj> Maintainers are decided, taglib back in action?
15:22:28 <thomasj> oh
15:22:33 <jreznik_n900> we were talking about it
15:22:34 <Kevin_Kofler> I picked up kcm_touchpad. The long-term plan there is something worth discussing, too, but I guess it's best to ship F15 with kcm_touchpad at this point.
15:22:37 <thomasj> I can take k3b
15:22:44 <thomasj> Hopefully it won't kill me
15:23:00 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik_n900: rnovacek said he'd prefer not being the primary owner.
15:23:12 <rnovacek> jreznik_n900: have you talked to hhorak?
15:23:16 <rdieter> both taglib, k3b should be in relatively good shape, packaging and bug-wise
15:23:29 <jreznik_n900> rnovacek, yeah I talked to him
15:23:45 <jreznik_n900> he agrees to comaintain it - lower levels maint.
15:23:55 <rnovacek> It's some guy in our office who takes care about burning...
15:24:09 <rnovacek> ok, so I can take the maintainship
15:24:23 <jreznik_n900> cool, thanks
15:26:33 <ltinkl> rdieter: do I/we need to take some action? or you will just reassign the packages to the relevant persons in pkgdb?
15:26:47 <rdieter> I think you have to go into pkgdb, and claim ownership
15:26:51 <rnovacek> ok, any objections about me taking k3b?
15:26:51 <ltinkl> ok
15:26:53 <rdieter> (I can't assign it)
15:27:03 <thomasj> rnovacek, take it
15:27:03 <ltinkl> rnovacek: no, go ahead :)
15:27:07 <than> rnovacek: it's fine, take it
15:27:18 <rnovacek> ok, comaintainers welcomed...
15:27:31 <than> rnovacek: you are maintainer of this package in rhel6 too ;-)
15:27:42 <than> so it does make sense here
15:27:51 <rnovacek> than: you're right
15:29:02 <Kevin_Kofler> Can we move on?
15:29:10 <rdieter> ok
15:29:28 <than> rnovacek: perhaps ask roman rakus if he coould be comainteiner
15:29:36 <rdieter> jreznik wanted branding, but he's not 100% here, can defer until he's available
15:30:09 <rnovacek> than: ok, I'll ask
15:30:18 <than> rnovacek: thanks
15:30:25 <Kevin_Kofler> My 2 cents about branding is that we should keep using KDE Software Compilation where we're referring to the whole thing, it doesn't make sense to use "KDE Plasma Desktop and KDE Applications and whatever".
15:30:36 <rdieter> my other topic was f15 artwork/theming
15:30:48 <Kevin_Kofler> (i.e. in particular don't change comps and change https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KDE#Installing_KDE_Plasma_Workspaces to say Software Compilation)
15:31:00 <Kevin_Kofler> (it's installing more than just the Plasma Workspaces)
15:31:01 <jreznik_n900> dont change comps
15:31:14 <jreznik_n900> as it is too long
15:31:24 <jreznik_n900> but for websites
15:32:13 <jreznik_n900> it is ok to use new branding
15:32:17 <than> Kevin_Kofler: +1
15:33:04 <Kevin_Kofler> My suggestion is to change the wiki to say: "You will have the option of installing the KDE Software Compilation, which includes the KDE Plasma Workspaces, the core KDE Applications and the runtime portions of the KDE Platform, during the Fedora installation process. You can also install the KDE Software Compilation packages after installation … To install the KDE Software Compilation using the command line, …"
15:33:40 <Kevin_Kofler> And to add a paragraph about @kde-software-development, too.
15:33:52 <rdieter> #topic branding
15:34:34 <jreznik_n900> no, I do not like software comp, it should never appear...
15:34:39 <Kevin_Kofler> (saying it includes the packages required to develop software against the KDE Platform and development tools to assist with that)
15:35:14 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik_n900: Well, it's the correct term here, I'd say.
15:35:26 <Kevin_Kofler> I could also change it all to just say "KDE", too. :-)
15:37:32 <Kevin_Kofler> So proposal 1: change the paragraph as I suggested above.
15:37:48 <Kevin_Kofler> Proposal 2: revert the whole wiki page back to saying just "KDE".
15:37:57 <Kevin_Kofler> Proposal 3: keep the status quo.
15:38:08 <Kevin_Kofler> I'm for doing 1 or 2.
15:38:17 * jreznik is back
15:38:25 <Kevin_Kofler> The status quo is misleading, @kde-desktop installs more than just the Plasma Workspaces.
15:38:58 <jreznik> Proposal 4: split KDE Plasma Workspaces and KDE Apllications comps
15:39:18 <jreznik> as we really want people to install KDE Applications, even without workspace
15:40:17 <thomasj> TBH, i like "just KDE".
15:40:41 <ltinkl> ditto
15:40:45 <jreznik> thomasj: problem with "KDE" is - today, everyone understands, but in the future...
15:40:46 <Kevin_Kofler> Me too.
15:40:52 <rdieter> jreznik: agreed, that's a step in the right direction
15:40:52 <than> yes, KDE is better
15:41:01 <thomasj> jreznik, i think people will always understand KDE.
15:41:15 <ltinkl> but I agree with the splitting, proposal no. 4
15:41:19 <jreznik> another thing - upstream wishes to call it Plasma... it is like someone would call Fedora Red Hat Linuxu, we would be angry
15:41:41 <Kevin_Kofler> But if we want to be pedantic, we should be correct, and not say something installs the Plasma Workspaces when it installs a lot more than just the workspaces, because that goes against the purpose of the branding (which is to eliminate this confusion).
15:42:23 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: yep, my fault, I fix it
15:42:49 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik: You have a point there, it always irks me when people say they installed "Fedora Core 14" (sic).
15:43:20 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: Fedora Core is better example :)
15:43:37 <Kevin_Kofler> (but this shows how names stick, it's almost impossible to get everyone to use a new name)
15:44:19 <jreznik> it takes time... for me, Borland is still Borland :)
15:45:18 <thomasj> The confusion started with having, KDE, KDE SC, Plasma workspaces.. Well, maybe it will be confusing in the future. But hey, if upstream wants it, lets be consistent.
15:45:45 <Kevin_Kofler> I think this "never use 'SC'" is also a misunderstanding.
15:46:17 <Kevin_Kofler> What they're really objecting to is people just running sed -i -e 's/KDE/KDE SC/g' on all their stuff without checking whether it makes sense to be more precise.
15:46:35 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: SC is name for all released tarballs in one time, internal releng...
15:46:36 <Kevin_Kofler> Indeed, in much of the wiki page, Plasma Workspaces or Plasma Desktop is the correct thing to refer to, not the SC.
15:47:13 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: that's I say I'm not completely sure and it's case by case, I have to fix it, same for websites
15:47:28 <jreznik> for comps I prefer KDE SC or better split apps and workspace
15:47:43 <thomasj> If you ask me, we should then change comps as well. To reflect the plasma-workspaces
15:47:50 <thomasj> Yeah
15:48:54 <rdieter> jreznik: please do the split, I firmly believe that's a step in the right direction (we could perhaps go further, but this is a good first step)
15:49:42 <Kevin_Kofler> Splitting comps makes some sense, but where does the workspace and and apps start?
15:49:48 <Kevin_Kofler> *end and
15:50:55 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: yep, that's the first question... do we need other kde* packages splits?
15:51:16 <jreznik> I really like idea to open KDE apps more to the world, in opposit to gnome apps closing to their word
15:51:21 <Kevin_Kofler> kde-plasma-networkmanagement is probably workspace, kdegraphics is probably apps, but what about, say kpackagekit? Or kdebase (the base apps)?
15:51:39 <thomasj> Maybe upstream has something that explains it?
15:51:45 <Kevin_Kofler> KPK is probably workspace, I'd say.
15:51:55 <Kevin_Kofler> It only autostarts in KDE^H^H^HPlasma.
15:52:12 <jreznik> thomasj: they want more apps as standalone apps - like there's no KDE, but Dolphin by KDE etc.
15:52:33 <thomasj> jreznik, then maybe they have a list or something
15:52:38 <Kevin_Kofler> Do they really expect other desktop users to use Dolphin?
15:52:51 <Kevin_Kofler> Every desktop environment/workspace out there comes with some file manager.
15:53:17 <Kevin_Kofler> GNOME has Nautilus, Xfce has Thunar, LXDE has PCManFM or how it's called, …
15:53:29 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: take a look at Nautilus and I'd use Dolphin I'd be Gnome user :) even crashing the same
15:54:04 <Kevin_Kofler> Well, Dolphin is barely more functional than Nautilus, Krusader rulez. ;-)
15:54:31 * jreznik is still using mc
15:54:42 * ltinkl happy mc user
15:54:43 <Kevin_Kofler> Have you tried Krusader?
15:54:43 <ltinkl> xD
15:54:49 <Kevin_Kofler> It's like mc for KDE. :-)
15:55:08 * thomasj is the alien who uses Dolphin when possible
15:55:10 <ltinkl> might give it a try
15:55:20 <Kevin_Kofler> s/for KDE/based on the KDE Platform and integrating well with the KDE Plasma Desktop Workspace/ :-)
15:55:40 <ltinkl> :D
15:55:48 <jreznik> I know Krusader, still prefer mc :)
15:56:10 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik: If there's anything that can be improved in Krusader, let me (or better, upstream) know. :-)
15:56:46 <Kevin_Kofler> So, can we discuss the artwork stuff?
15:56:58 <Kevin_Kofler> We should have some decision on artwork for the Alpha.
15:58:35 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: I'm really busy this week (training, dev conf etc), I'll try to put maximum effort to it next week...
15:58:41 <Kevin_Kofler> I think the status quo in Rawhide is broken entirely.
15:58:57 <Kevin_Kofler> We're trying to default to the upstream default wallpaper, but not shipping it.
15:59:24 <Kevin_Kofler> We need to either put it into the main kdebase-workspace package, or into something like kdebase-workspace-default-wallpaper.
16:00:06 <Kevin_Kofler> Or make lovelock the default, but won't we also need the upstream default for the KDM theme? Or does that use some different wallpaper?
16:00:35 <Kevin_Kofler> (Given jreznik's comment, I don't think we'll have a lovelock-kde-theme ready for the Alpha.)
16:00:54 <rdieter> I'll fix anything that's currently broken
16:01:32 <Kevin_Kofler> We also need to give feedback to the Design Team about the current wallpaper.
16:01:58 <Kevin_Kofler> If we agree that we don't like it being based on the GNOME 3 wallpaper, we should let them know. They say the design is not final.
16:01:58 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: I'd like to see the same as for Gnome - to have lovelock theme with KDE wp combined
16:02:37 <Kevin_Kofler> I'd personally like that or something neutral, no GNOME stripes.
16:02:38 <rdieter> jreznik: if that's what we wanted, we shouldn't asked a long time ago
16:02:44 <rdieter> should've...
16:03:24 <Kevin_Kofler> I think neutral would be best for everyone, it doesn't make sense to design a theme per desktop…
16:03:41 <Kevin_Kofler> But the GNOME folks love their stripes, it seems.
16:04:05 <rdieter> most people won't know or care about the origin of the stripes, imo
16:04:13 <thomasj> +1
16:04:17 <jreznik> rdieter: I'm trying it for a few years now...
16:04:28 <jreznik> and this time it's closer than before :)
16:04:34 <rdieter> jreznik: oh, ok.
16:05:10 <rdieter> looks like we're out of time today
16:05:22 <rdieter> thanks everyone
16:05:28 <rdieter> any last comments?
16:05:48 <jreznik> rdieter: from the time upstream was fighting for shared branding... I'll try to fill Design team trac ticket
16:06:12 <rdieter> #endmeeting