17:25:55 <sochotni> #startmeeting #startmeeting Java SIG --
17:25:55 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov  2 17:25:55 2010 UTC.  The chair is sochotni. Information about MeetBot at
17:25:55 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:25:58 <sochotni> eh
17:26:05 <sochotni> #meetingname java-sig
17:26:06 <orionp> listening
17:26:08 <sochotni> #meetingname java-sig
17:26:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'java-sig'
17:26:16 <sochotni> #topic roll-call
17:26:30 <sochotni> #info orionp cspike hannes| sochotni present
17:26:40 <cspike> mbooth was here a minute ago
17:26:43 <sochotni> akurtakov had something this evening so he won't be joining in
17:26:47 <sochotni> mbooth: ping
17:26:51 <mbooth> pong
17:26:58 <sochotni> #info mbooth present as well
17:27:00 <sochotni> great
17:27:24 <sochotni> #topic Maven-3
17:27:35 <sochotni> so...that's me I guess
17:28:26 <sochotni> I have submitted maven vanilla package for review
17:28:32 <sochotni> #link Maven 3 review
17:28:51 <sochotni> I guess I'd like someone from the "old school" do the review (a.k.a. dbhole, fnasser etc)
17:29:06 <sochotni> but we'll see :-)
17:29:11 <sochotni> as for the custom resolver
17:29:21 <cspike> is there a git repo yet?
17:30:24 <sochotni> #link current version of the patch needed to use custom resolver
17:30:32 <sochotni> that patch is for maven 3
17:30:44 <sochotni> cspike: I have one local...but I think I'll have to change it...
17:30:54 <sochotni> because idea was to have separate independent package
17:31:02 <sochotni> unfortunately that's not possible
17:31:16 <sochotni>'s possible but doesn't make sense
17:31:39 <cspike> so you don't plan to make it public?
17:31:46 <sochotni> so I'll be incorporating custom resolver into maven srpm just like mave2 is now
17:34:17 <cspike> sochotni: and btw. any ETA?
17:34:36 <sochotni> sec.. I forgot to copy that repo out
17:34:38 <sochotni> so doing it now
17:36:13 <sochotni> #link custom java resolver
17:37:07 <sochotni> it needs maven3 parts to compile obviously and for testing I have it symlinked to /usr/share/maven/lib
17:37:10 <sochotni> ETA...
17:37:12 <sochotni> anyway...
17:37:17 <sochotni> I can currently build several packages
17:37:29 <sochotni> e.g. apache-commons-io/lang
17:37:35 <sochotni> atinject too
17:38:07 <sochotni> currently solving issue with animal-sniffer (problem with half-generated files)
17:38:16 <sochotni> might be bug in maven itself..
17:38:44 <sochotni> #info Currently several apps compile in mvn3 "jpp" mode.
17:38:53 <cspike> sochotni: eta == estimated time of arrival
17:39:13 <sochotni> cspike: I assumed you meant ETA of new maven jpp mode
17:39:16 <sochotni> was I wrong?
17:39:42 <cspike> basically it would be nice to know if you're planning to push maven 3 into rawhide before f15 branch
17:39:57 <cspike> and yes, with a working jpp mode, of course
17:40:03 <sochotni> cspike: vanilla definitely
17:40:40 <sochotni> cspike: we'll see about the jpp mode
17:40:55 <sochotni> but I assume that will be in F-15 as well
17:41:02 <sochotni> at least as a "tech preview"
17:41:16 <cspike> so i guess all the maven plugins have to be at least touched to confirm that they work correctly with maven3
17:41:23 <sochotni> exactly
17:41:28 <cspike> *ouch*
17:41:30 <sochotni> some are known not to work
17:41:36 <sochotni> new versions are planned
17:41:46 <sochotni> maven3 site plugin is being reworked completely
17:41:55 <sochotni> basically whole reporting in maven is new
17:42:00 <sochotni> so...we'll see
17:42:30 <cspike> ok, next topic?
17:42:44 <sochotni> #topic Java packages to be monitored by the SIG
17:43:01 <sochotni> seems like we have all "basic" packages in place
17:43:32 <sochotni> I'd say akurtakov can go ahead and request new java sig pseudo-user with watchcommits on those packages
17:43:45 <cspike> looks good to me
17:44:24 <mbooth> Is it easy to add new ones once we have the java-sig user?
17:45:11 <mbooth> I.e., can we give the user watchcommits on other packages after he's been created?
17:45:17 <sochotni> mbooth: you can make cvs flag '?" and request CC for that user
17:45:30 <mbooth> Ok, cool
17:45:31 <sochotni> see package change request
17:46:12 <sochotni> and this also depends on other topic..
17:46:20 <sochotni> #topic Java Packaging guidelines
17:46:37 <sochotni> #undo
17:46:37 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x2aaabb582690>
17:46:38 <tibbs> I'm here if you have questions.
17:47:07 <sochotni> #info Package list in good shape akurtakov can go ahead and ask for java-sig user
17:47:16 <sochotni> #topic Java Packaging guidelines
17:47:21 <tibbs> And I can set up watchchcommit access for a user if you need it; there's no other way to really request it.
17:47:22 <sochotni> tibbs: great
17:47:54 <sochotni> tibbs: isn't that same as adding him to "cc" in review request?
17:48:24 <tibbs> Yes, but there's no easy way to do that for existing packages.
17:48:37 <tibbs> So you can just give me a list and I'll do it directly in pkgdb.
17:48:44 <sochotni> tibbs: yes that's what is part of "create java-sig pseudo-user"
17:48:54 <sochotni> tibbs:
17:48:59 <sochotni> that is the list
17:49:04 <sochotni> but we don't have user created yet
17:50:00 <sochotni> last meeting we decided to have pseudo-user's email go to java-devel ML
17:51:11 <sochotni> until tibbs gets back to us...We had some interesting suggestions regarding new guidelines
17:51:29 <sochotni> a) versionless jars & javadoc dirs
17:51:50 <sochotni> it's true that javadir would look much nicer :-)
17:52:38 <cspike> sochotni: i couldn't find any guideline that actually says that a versioned jar file has to be present. so why are they existing anyway?
17:53:04 <orionp> Easy way to know what version is installed?
17:53:09 <tibbs> I thought the recent guideline revision did away with the versioned javadoc stuff.
17:53:13 <sochotni> orionp: that was my idea also
17:53:18 <mbooth> Holdover from jpackage guidelines, I'd say
17:53:36 <sochotni> tibbs: if by recent you mean the one from ~3 weeks ago...noone in Java SIG knew about that
17:53:51 <cspike> orionp: rpm query
17:54:17 <sochotni> orionp: yeah, that was also my can figure it out by rpm -qf usually
17:54:20 <sochotni> but...
17:54:43 <sochotni> I guess sometimes jar could have different version than rpm package..
17:54:49 <sochotni> although that would be a bit weird..
17:55:24 <cspike> sochotni: examples? as far as i know the package naming guidelines, that should be impossible...
17:55:33 <sochotni> about: if no one cames with a really good reason to have versions in jars -> let's get rid of versions in jars
17:55:47 <sochotni> cspike: should be but people are inventive :-)
17:56:48 <cspike> ok, someone has to update the packaging guideline draft and the review template...
17:56:58 <sochotni> there are few packages where we have multiple versions but those are usually distinguished by number in name.. (junit3/4)
17:56:58 <cspike> volunteers? :)
17:57:09 <sochotni> cspike: I'll do it
17:57:23 <sochotni> I am mergin Abo's draft anyway
17:57:28 <sochotni> well..not a draft anymore
17:57:43 <tibbs> I don't mean to interrupt, but where will the java-sig user's mail go?
17:57:56 <sochotni> tibbs: see few lines up: java-devel ML
17:57:58 <mbooth> tibbs: java-devel mailing list
17:58:11 <tibbs> Isn't that closed to nonsubscribers?
17:58:21 <sochotni> #action sochotni will update Packaging draft with versionless jar filenames
17:58:31 <sochotni> tibbs: yes, would that be a problem?
17:58:39 <tibbs> Well, yeah.
17:58:49 <tibbs> Otherwise you won't be getting much mail.
17:59:10 <sochotni> :-) I meant: can you just subscribe pseudo user there?
17:59:38 <sochotni> frankly I don't know who list admin is
17:59:51 <sochotni> ah: java-devel list run by gbenson at, green at, mark at
18:00:16 <cspike> can we actually use the draft in a review request yet? it would be stupid to force someone to provide a versioned symlink just to remove it as soon as the draft is approved...
18:00:45 <sochotni> cspike: we can't be sure that it will be approved...although I'd say that if Java SIG sees no problem...
18:01:18 <mbooth> cspike: I don't see a problem with that... How long does the Packaging committee take to ratify things like this?
18:01:19 <tibbs> Generally if the SIG wants it and it's not insane, FPC will approve it.
18:01:44 <tibbs> If you open a ticket we'll address it at the next meeting which I'm pretty sure is tomorrow.
18:01:57 <tibbs>
18:02:52 <sochotni> tibbs: there are a few cleanups before it's ready to go
18:03:06 <sochotni> tibbs: you have meetings bi-weekly right?
18:03:25 <tibbs> Ostensibly.
18:03:39 <tibbs> But it really depends on everyone's schedule and how much work there is to do.
18:03:53 <sochotni> let's assume in a month then :-)
18:04:01 <cspike> i would suggest to do it as soon as possible to avoid doubling the work
18:04:37 <cspike> sochotni: what about you finish the merge, get rid of the versioned symlinks and then just open the ticket
18:04:38 <sochotni> cspike: I believe there are no insande changes so guidelines will be approved once we agree on them..
18:05:09 <sochotni> well..why not...if there is something we'd like to meeting
18:06:07 <sochotni> #action sochotni file FPC ticket for new draft approval once versionless things are in place
18:06:26 <cspike> sochotni: oh, just found something... could you update the plugin names in the maven specfile template before you open the ticket?
18:07:02 <cspike> the maven2 stuff should be obsolete
18:07:27 <sochotni> cspike: I see them as maven-X
18:07:48 <sochotni> cspike: refresh?
18:07:54 <cspike> sochotni: oops, sorry, was looking at the current guidelines. wrong page
18:07:59 <sochotni> cspike: :-)
18:08:24 <sochotni> so I'll do it today just to be sure I don't forget
18:09:00 <sochotni> tibbs: so to add pseudo-email to java-devel I guess I should contact java-devel admins right?
18:09:32 <tibbs> Well, the mail won't come _from_ the pseudo-user.
18:09:35 <tibbs> It will go to it.
18:09:54 <tibbs> So subscribing won't help you.
18:10:08 <sochotni> tibbs: ah, sorry...mixed up
18:10:13 <tibbs> I've already asked for the pseudo-user to be created.
18:10:22 <sochotni> tibbs: thank you
18:10:37 <tibbs> Once it's done I'll add it as a CC on all of those packages.
18:10:57 <sochotni> tibbs: you are my new hero :-)
18:11:58 <tibbs> BTW, I have an item when you open the floor.
18:12:22 <sochotni> I gues we could discuss change of time for the meeting...and then open-floor
18:12:49 <ggraz> hello all, has the java sig meeting started yet?
18:12:55 <cspike> get on to the next topic?
18:13:03 <sochotni> cspike, mbooth, hannes|, orionp: is it worth starting discussion on change of time for meetings?
18:13:14 <sochotni> ggraz: ~50 minutes ago :-)
18:13:19 <cspike> ggraz: one hour late. but you're not the only one :)
18:13:27 <mbooth> sochotni yeah
18:13:28 <sochotni> #topic Change of meeting time
18:13:44 <mbooth> 5pm is kinda inconvenient in the UK
18:13:45 <cspike> sochotni: you set up a voting somewhere, didn't you?
18:13:51 <ggraz> d*mn daylight saving time
18:14:11 <sochotni> cspike: I did but it closed already (only 2 of us voted :-/)
18:14:21 <sochotni> ggraz, mbooth correct
18:14:24 <cspike> sochotni: i guess you and me :)
18:14:40 <mbooth> There was a vote?
18:14:44 <sochotni> see
18:15:05 <sochotni> I noticed almost everyone missed it... I should have posted another thread I guess
18:15:18 <sochotni> let's try again...I'll do the vote from the scratch
18:15:28 <mbooth> Oops
18:15:41 <cspike> sochotni: nah, i can't remember what i voted for
18:15:55 <sochotni> cspike: :-) (me neither)
18:16:26 <sochotni> #action sochotni will re-create voting for change of meeting time and post separate thread to java-devel
18:16:42 <sochotni> #action orionp akurtakov_ mbooth hannes| cspike will vote :-)
18:17:01 <sochotni> let's give tibbs a chance ...
18:17:06 <sochotni> #topic open floor
18:17:11 <mbooth> Yes, I am normally commuting at 5 ;-) I will vote for earlier or later
18:17:25 <tibbs> Sure, I just wanted to point out that there are several pretty old java package reviews open.
18:17:37 <sochotni> tibbs: we are slowly chipping away at them
18:17:44 <sochotni> but you're right..
18:17:50 <sochotni> even quite a few merge reviews
18:17:54 <hannes|> i need to subscribe to the list first
18:17:57 <tibbs> OK, I didn't know if anyone was looking at them.
18:18:27 * cspike took 3 merge reviews last week
18:18:28 <tibbs> The oldest one is from last October.
18:18:29 <sochotni> tibbs: I believe most of us did a few merge reviews lately
18:18:33 <cspike> akurtakov_: keeps nagging :)
18:18:41 <sochotni> cspike: :-0
18:18:56 <tibbs> jilter, I think.  Plus there's jexcelapi, jrexx, the aduna stack, and others.
18:18:57 <sochotni> tibbs: yes, I have a few open where original reported doesn't respon...
18:19:03 <sochotni> I'll have to close them I guess
18:19:22 <sochotni> tibbs: for aduna...meforster wasn't sure if it's still neede AFAIK
18:19:28 <tibbs> Yes, close them out after a month.  Don't keep them around; it just wastes reviewer time.
18:19:39 <tibbs> I was wondering if meforster was still active.
18:19:49 <sochotni> tibbs: sort of
18:20:03 <tibbs> Your pseudo-user is set up now, by the way.
18:20:08 <mbooth> Re: the aduna stack, Mary dropped off the radar for while, one of us should ping some of those reviews
18:20:17 <sochotni> I believe life intervened but she helped with maven 2.2.1 update AFAIK (before I came)
18:21:02 <sochotni> tibbs: thank you a lot, now just get java-devel to accept mail from all weird addresses
18:21:17 <sochotni> commits are from our fas accounts if I remember correctly
18:21:46 <mbooth> Can the java-sig user's email address just forward to the list? Is that possible?
18:22:17 <sochotni> mbooth: java-sig user's email IS the list now I believe
18:22:23 <sochotni> tibbs: right?
18:22:37 <tibbs> Oh, I have to request that that address accept mail.
18:22:47 <cspike> on a completely unrelated topic.
18:22:48 <sochotni> #action all: look at merge reviews
18:23:06 <cspike> does any one know how to contact devrim?
18:23:06 <mbooth> cspike: Indeed
18:23:20 <mbooth> cspike: Did fnasser release his?
18:23:28 <cspike> mbooth: i did them
18:23:38 <mbooth> cspike: cool :-)
18:23:55 <cspike> mbooth: i mean, yes he released his and i orphaned and stuff
18:24:31 <cspike> devrim actually just has to relese ownership, i can finish the rest...
18:24:46 <cspike> is there a way to force this if he doesn't answer in say a week or two?
18:24:57 <tibbs> OK, the java-sig pseudo user will now accept email (once everything pushes out).
18:25:01 <sochotni> cspike: I believe we'd have to do unresponsive packager thing..
18:25:32 <cspike> ok, i'll write another pm and we'll talk about it during the next meeting
18:25:36 <sochotni> tibbs: so what do we need to do? Get java-devel to open-up?
18:25:54 <sochotni> tibbs: or do you see another way to make it work by any chance?
18:26:12 <sochotni> cspike: yeah. I pm'ed him few months back at the start of rename process
18:26:14 <sochotni> no response
18:26:44 <tibbs> Yes, that would be good.  I am not a list admin so I don't know what options may be available besides making the list more open.
18:27:01 <sochotni> tibbs: ok, thank you
18:27:47 <sochotni> any volunteer for contacting java-devel list admins?
18:27:56 <sochotni> so that I don't write all the emails :-)
18:28:19 <cspike> mbooth: btw, you don't have to file the releng ticket, there are some packages missing so i'll file one single ticket when all packages are dead ->
18:29:26 <sochotni> cspike: yeah, I forgot about the jakarta rename...sorry
18:29:39 <sochotni> as in #topic stuff
18:30:08 <cspike> np, seems everythin really important is said
18:30:26 <sochotni> ok, since noone volunteered I guess I'll send those emails
18:30:47 <sochotni> #action sochotni contact java-devel list admin and figure out a way for our pseudouser get mail
18:31:10 <sochotni> let's coll it a night then? :-)
18:31:15 <cspike> +1
18:31:21 <sochotni> #endmeeting