00:01:09 <stickster> #startmeeting
00:01:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 11 00:01:09 2010 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:01:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
00:01:12 <stickster> #meetingname Docs
00:01:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
00:01:43 <stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Thursday_March_11.2C_2010_.28Wed_US_Time.29
00:01:58 <stickster> #info Agenda is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:02:03 <stickster> #topic Roll call
00:02:05 * stickster 
00:02:07 * jjmcd .
00:02:16 <joebebus> how do you do that?
00:02:27 <jjmcd> /me
00:02:34 <joebebus> /me
00:02:38 <joebebus> oops
00:02:40 <stickster> do "/me" followed by two spaces.
00:02:42 <joebebus> it gives me a error
00:02:43 <joebebus> ok
00:02:46 * joebebus 
00:02:53 <stickster> :-)
00:04:05 <joebebus> Hey rudi!
00:04:17 <stickster> train departs at :05 :-)
00:04:47 <rudi> Hey all -- again, I'm only kinda here this morning
00:04:51 <stickster> No problem rudi
00:05:01 <stickster> rudi: Want me to ping you when we get to guide stuff?
00:05:15 <rudi> Stickster -- much appreciated :)
00:05:18 <stickster> cool
00:05:22 <stickster> #topic DST change (5 min)
00:05:51 <stickster> OK, in a bunch of places DST starts this coming Saturday night/Sunday morning.
00:05:52 * quaid is here
00:06:00 <stickster> The question is, what do we do about our meeting time?
00:06:06 <jjmcd> stickster, our original decision was to stay at 0001Z, but if others want to change that is fine with me
00:06:30 <stickster> #idea stickster offers, let's stay on human time.
00:06:43 <quaid> wazzat?
00:06:47 <stickster> I would note that if we change meeting times to stay on UTC, I will not be able to lead them, period full stop.
00:07:03 <stickster> If we stay on the same human clock time, I can.
00:07:12 * jjmcd has a clock on the wall in zulu, and another on local, so doesn't matter which
00:07:14 <stickster> If someone else can lead the meeting, I am happy to defer to that person.
00:07:40 <stickster> sparks asked that for the next little while he get some coverage for these meetings, and I'm happy to do that as long as I can make it :-)
00:08:22 <stickster> Does anyone feel strongly we should stay on UTC?
00:08:28 * stickster notes, 2 min left on this topic
00:08:52 <joebebus> Honestly UTC confuses me
00:08:56 <joebebus> but I am ok with it
00:09:10 <stickster> Let me pose the question again:
00:09:16 <stickster> Does anyone feel strongly we should stay on UTC?
00:09:28 * jjmcd is content either way
00:09:38 <stickster> quaid: ?
00:09:52 * joebebus is content either way
00:10:13 <quaid> I was not understanding human time, but that is clear
00:10:22 <quaid> I'm smooth either way, let's keep it humane
00:10:36 <jjmcd> do we have conflicts with other groups if we change?
00:10:41 <stickster> quaid: So in other words we will be changing the meeting time to 2300 UTC, which remains at 7:00pm US-Eastern and so forth.
00:10:46 <jjmcd> THe calendar for this channel is in UTC
00:10:48 <stickster> If we clash with another meeting, we'll move to #fedora-docs.
00:11:03 <stickster> zodbot has made the problem of "having to camp in #fedora-meeting to catch things" null
00:11:12 <quaid> what about when ppl's human time changes at different times?
00:11:19 <stickster> quaid: It happens.
00:11:23 <quaid> every time it does
00:11:29 <quaid> what I mean is ...
00:11:30 <stickster> If those people have a problem, I suppose they'd be at this meeting, though
00:11:31 <quaid> whose clock wins?
00:11:33 <stickster> Or...
00:11:33 <quaid> first one to change?
00:11:38 <stickster> They'd send something to the list?
00:11:43 <jjmcd> is there anyone on the planet who knows who changes when?
00:11:49 <stickster> jjmcd: Right.
00:12:26 <stickster> Let's agree to change for now, and if it causes a problem we can't fix, we'll worry about that when the time comes.
00:12:27 <quaid> #idea Set the adjustment of human clock against one specific country or union ...
00:12:41 <stickster> quaid: I'm fine with that.
00:12:48 <jjmcd> Zambia maybe?
00:13:13 <jjmcd> When do the aussies change?
00:13:42 <stickster> They'll be off for a few weeks.
00:14:11 <stickster> rudi: Would a meeting at 2300 UTC for the next few weeks be awful for you guys?
00:14:50 <stickster> rudi: Or rather, I should say, at 2300 UTC from now until ~November
00:15:01 <rudi> yeah -- no problem
00:15:04 <stickster> Great.
00:15:07 <rudi> We're all in here by then
00:15:10 <stickster> OK
00:15:16 <quaid> OK, I suggest we use the US timechange *gasp*
00:15:27 * quaid . o O { whodda thunk it? }
00:15:28 <stickster> #idea Docs to use en-US DST timezones.
00:15:31 <stickster> +1
00:15:37 <quaid> +1!
00:15:39 <joebebus> +1
00:15:53 <jjmcd> +1
00:16:00 <stickster> #agreed Docs will use en-US DST timezones from here on out.
00:16:10 <stickster> #action stickster to update wiki appropriately to reflect new times
00:16:22 <stickster> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
00:16:36 <stickster> #info threethirty drafted as requested, AWESOME!
00:16:57 <stickster> jjmcd: How about yours? (#  jjmcd to contact joebebus, review the wiki page, and notify Docs/Marketing to review/finalize )
00:17:18 <stickster> That's Alpha release notes, right?
00:17:23 <jjmcd> yep, joebebus drafted, Mel reviewed (or said she was, have to admit I didn't check up on her)
00:17:29 * stickster notes that he needs to do a better job with context in meetbot items :-)
00:17:40 <stickster> jjmcd: Great.
00:17:53 <stickster> #info jjmcd followed up on Alpha release notes as requested, AWESOME!
00:18:09 <stickster> #info jjmcd posted reminders to lists for release notes beats updates, AWESOME!
00:18:24 <stickster> #info stickster started the bug stomping meeting conversation as requested, AWESOME!
00:18:45 <stickster> I think rudi set up a few EasyFix bugs for us, didn't he?
00:18:54 <quaid> #fact last weekend bug stomping was awesome, great to see new faces (nicks) getting rolled in
00:19:02 * quaid made up #fact, don't bother using it :)
00:19:06 <stickster> hehe
00:19:17 <rudi> I was going to, but John (?) jumped in ahead of me :)
00:19:25 <rudi> For which I am most grateful :)
00:19:27 <stickster> :-)
00:19:41 <stickster> #info rudi wanted to set up EasyFix bugs, but jjmcd did some ahead of time, AWESOME!
00:19:55 <stickster> #topic Alpha announcement and release notes
00:20:16 <stickster> #info Both the Alpha announcement and Alpha release notes were available with the F13 Alpha release as expected.
00:20:23 <stickster> Do we need to do any follow up on these?
00:20:36 <jjmcd> Did you get to peek at that installer issue?\
00:20:37 <stickster> Are there any pending tasks for either of these docs on the wiki?
00:20:50 <stickster> jjmcd: I think ke4qqq was looking into that, I haven't had any cycles
00:21:01 <joebebus> What installer issue?
00:21:05 <jjmcd> Ahhh, that's right, I've been short of them, too
00:21:10 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_Alpha_release_announcement
00:21:20 <stickster> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_Alpha_release_notes
00:21:28 <jjmcd> joebebus - there is a section on the installer that is just a couple of notes
00:21:35 <joebebus> ok
00:21:53 <stickster> jjmcd: Ah, I see, there's a FIXME still located there.
00:21:59 <jjmcd> yes
00:22:17 <jjmcd> It needs some research, I wasn't able to quickly find any supporting data
00:22:30 <stickster> I'm going to do the evil of assigning an absentee a task
00:22:31 <stickster> :-)
00:22:48 <stickster> #action ke4qqq to report back what he finds out about the installer defaults for /boot partition size and /home partition separation
00:23:03 <stickster> Who will update the page when we find that out?
00:23:15 <stickster> jjmcd: ^^ You OK with that one?
00:23:21 <jjmcd> I assumed David wouldn't be shy
00:23:35 <jjmcd> but if he is, I would be happy to craft some weasel words
00:23:56 <stickster> #action jjmcd will make sure F13A relnotes page is appropriately updated
00:23:58 <stickster> Thanks jjmcd
00:24:18 <stickster> Anything else on this?
00:24:46 <stickster> Moving on then
00:24:49 <stickster> #topic Desktop Help Summit
00:24:50 <stickster> #link http://live.gnome.org/DesktopHelpSummit2010
00:25:09 <jjmcd> shaunm thinks they can get the firewall solved for talk
00:25:22 <jjmcd> They have set up a temporary mailing list to work these issues
00:25:23 <jjmcd> http://syllogist.net/mailman/listinfo/dhs2010_syllogist.net
00:25:23 <stickster> #info shaunm advises there is a list for remotees to join:
00:25:25 <stickster> #link
00:25:29 <stickster> #undo
00:25:31 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x28578c10>
00:25:40 <stickster> #link http://syllogist.net/mailman/listinfo/dhs2010_syllogist.net
00:26:12 <stickster> #info All remote participants should join aforementioned list
00:26:24 <stickster> jjmcd: I don't think there's anything else for us to do at this point, right?
00:26:32 <jjmcd> not that I can think of
00:26:51 * stickster will remove from agenda unless there's something actionable for the whole team -- any other coordination can be done on the list
00:27:09 <stickster> OK.l
00:27:16 <stickster> wow, need to fire that typist again.
00:27:26 <stickster> Moving on!
00:27:26 <quaid> that's three this month!
00:27:34 <stickster> I pile 'em outside like cordwood
00:27:44 <jjmcd> hard to get good help these days
00:27:49 <stickster> Fortunately they're as imaginary as my lottery winnings
00:27:55 <stickster> #topic Release Notes
00:28:01 <stickster> jjmcd: OK, take it away, give us the scoop
00:28:12 <jjmcd> OK
00:28:12 <stickster> What are our next actions, and how can contributors help right now?
00:28:22 <jjmcd> Well, the next thing is to finish populating the wiki
00:28:48 <jjmcd> I was going to see if I could lean on joebebus and eli to go start by going to those pages with links
00:29:00 <jjmcd> review the feature pages and craft some rn words
00:29:18 <joebebus> ok...
00:29:24 <jjmcd> Meanwhile, I was going to do my search of rawhide/f13 to see what we may have missed
00:29:33 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_beats
00:29:43 <jjmcd> Yes, exactly
00:30:11 <jjmcd> Thats where we are, not so exciting, just facing the real grunt
00:30:35 <jjmcd> Oh, I prolly need to talk with rudi after the meeting
00:30:37 * stickster notes he and spot can help tickle any RH engineers on specific beats if needed
00:30:52 <jjmcd> cool
00:30:54 <stickster> I don't know if we can get people to fully own them, but putting some text in a wiki page shouldn't be too hard.
00:31:06 <jjmcd> Exactly
00:31:16 <jjmcd> if we can get a clue we can easily craft some prose
00:31:29 <jjmcd> but sometimes finding that first clue is the hard part
00:31:35 <stickster> So if I was a new contributor, jjmcd, where would you send me first to do something?
00:31:46 <jjmcd> You posted the link
00:31:53 <stickster> Ah, that was it!
00:31:54 <jjmcd> First I would find out what interested him
00:32:10 <jjmcd> Many of the beats contain links to the feature page
00:32:24 * stickster collects info from jjmcd for meetbot
00:32:38 <jjmcd> So crafting some prose around that is an easy way to get rolling
00:32:53 <stickster> jjmcd: Were all the beats scrubbed a while back?
00:32:59 <jjmcd> yes
00:33:13 <jjmcd> A few have been getting added to a lot
00:33:13 <stickster> In other words, if I come to the page knowing nothing, there will either be a blank page, or some content that we know is relatively current/OK
00:33:20 <jjmcd> Yes
00:33:36 <jjmcd> Although that content may be nothing more than a link to the feature page
00:33:53 <jjmcd> But that at least gives someone a starting point
00:33:57 <stickster> So I'd look at that page, and then... read the links if there, follow to the feature owner, ask questions, write prose, rinse, repeat?
00:34:05 <jjmcd> exactly
00:34:19 <stickster> #info If you're new and looking to help, take a look at the beats link above. Pick a beat that's interesting, use any links thereon to research related features.
00:34:38 <stickster> #info The links go to feature pages with owners. Email the owners, use their advice and assistance to write prose into the page.
00:34:49 <stickster> jjmcd: When does this period end?
00:35:03 <jjmcd> I see a couple of join requests, I'll get intros from them and maybe we'll be positioned to get them going right away
00:35:04 * stickster asks caveman questions to make sure log is useful :-)
00:35:15 <jjmcd> Only about a week, maybe 1.5
00:35:39 <stickster> jjmcd: Is that ending point the wiki freeze for Beta release notes?
00:35:46 <jjmcd> Yes
00:35:52 <stickster> #info http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-docs-tasks.html says this period ends March 15
00:35:58 <jjmcd> I need to double check dates I think it is the 15th
00:36:02 <jjmcd> yeah
00:36:03 <stickster> So get that stuff in lickety-split!
00:36:17 <stickster> #agreed Newcomers welcome, please help us increase content!
00:36:52 <stickster> #action jjmcd to address pending join requests for Docs, and invite newcomers to participate in Release Notes beat writing/editing
00:36:58 <stickster> OK, anything more on this?
00:37:00 <jjmcd> If you've looked at others release notes, Fedora's are something to be proud of.
00:37:10 <jjmcd> Only RHEL can hold a candle
00:37:15 <stickster> We always have been, right quaid?
00:37:53 <jjmcd> And with the work rudi, sparks and others are doing on guides we are going way past awesome
00:38:00 <stickster> Even with ups and downs, the release notes have done quite well. Sometimes through superhuman efforts, thanks to all those who've crushed them in past releases.
00:38:16 <stickster> #info Fedora release notes rock.
00:38:21 <stickster> actually
00:38:22 <jjmcd> :-)
00:38:22 <stickster> #undo
00:38:22 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x2b6f9676fd50>
00:38:27 <stickster> #agreed Fedora release notes rock.
00:38:32 <stickster> OK, moving on
00:38:36 <stickster> #topic New guides.
00:38:59 <stickster> I'm leaving this open for 20 seconds, but I'd like to remove it in favor of using the list for this info, until/unless someone pops up with one.
00:39:15 <stickster> Any objections? (me waits for 20sec)
00:39:49 <stickster> #agreed Remove this from ongoing agenda
00:39:59 <stickster> #action stickster to fix agenda, removing New Guides entry for now, in favor of list.
00:40:07 <stickster> #topic Guide status
00:40:18 <stickster> And that means it's time to ping rudi again!
00:40:30 * rudi pops up
00:40:52 <jjmcd> On updating the schedule, Rudi and Tsagadai hit it, nobody else has yet.  I updated RN's the other day
00:41:11 <rudi> Well, I'll be standing by to pick up anything as needed
00:41:24 <rudi> Everyone saw the note about the Tx upgrade?
00:41:34 <stickster> rudi: I haven't -- new news? 0.7.4 is up?
00:41:36 <jjmcd> no, I didn't
00:41:51 <rudi> There's an infra freeze today to finish the work
00:41:57 <stickster> Ooo
00:42:03 <rudi> So 0.7 should be operational within 24 hours
00:42:04 <jjmcd> coolness
00:42:22 <rudi> So with that in place, and the Alpha image out there
00:42:40 <stickster> Wow, cool! I know that ricky is working on that among others
00:42:49 <rudi> we'll be good to start updating content and dropping to translation
00:43:04 <jjmcd> uitstekend!
00:43:10 * stickster notes that Tx 0.7.x+ fixes a lot of problems translators have had with the older version we've been running a while.
00:43:29 <stickster> #info Infrastructure freeze has been going on today to finish work on Transifex 0.7.4 deployment
00:43:38 <rudi> So the good news for jjmcd and me is that we lose a lot of the nonsense we've had to carry :)
00:43:42 <stickster> YAY!
00:43:43 <jjmcd> And don't forget that interminable msgmerge
00:43:46 <jjmcd> yeah
00:43:50 <rudi> Don't start :)
00:43:51 <stickster> Right, because Tx 0.7 gives us real Publican support
00:44:09 <stickster> #info Tx 0.7.4 gives us Publican support, no more manual munging to get Publican-based guides done!
00:44:12 <stickster> I'm thrilled
00:44:19 <rudi> We'll probably need to do one last split once we've generated Publican 1.0 PO files, but that's it
00:44:24 <stickster> *nod
00:44:36 <jjmcd> stickster, you haven't been doing 7 hour builds every night
00:44:38 <rudi> s/probably/definitely :)
00:44:51 <stickster> #info Guide owners will do one last split once Publican 1.0 PO files are generated
00:45:07 <stickster> rudi: That's great.
00:45:20 <jjmcd> And then I can upgrade my publican 0.44 system
00:45:26 <jjmcd> :-)
00:45:28 * stickster notes we are at endtime minus 15 minutes
00:45:50 <stickster> rudi: For new contributors, is there anything they should know to help with guides, other than to raise a hand on the docs list?
00:46:08 <stickster> (or to stop by the hosted project page and follow directions)
00:46:19 <rudi> Nope -- just yell out :)
00:46:37 <rudi> By late next week, I'll have my eye back on the Fedora ball :)
00:47:22 <stickster> rudi: Thanks so much for everything. You are a superstar.
00:47:31 <rudi> Aww shucks
00:47:43 <stickster> Let's move on, then, after that AWESOME bit of meeting gold :-)
00:47:55 <stickster> #topic Outcome of bug stomping session
00:48:13 <stickster> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED <-- still outstanding bugs
00:48:29 <stickster> #info the list is *significantly* smaller than it was before the bug stomping day.
00:48:41 * jjmcd thinks the bug stomping rocked
00:48:43 <stickster> And we had some new contributors participating!
00:48:57 <jjmcd> yes, that was great
00:49:05 <stickster> #idea Before the next one, we should have a "New contributor come-by-and-be-trained" day.
00:49:18 <jjmcd> not a bad plan
00:49:18 <stickster> I think we lost a bit of momentum there, even if it was for a truly great cause.
00:49:47 <stickster> That's really secondary, though, to the warm glow of new people showing up and getting involved.
00:49:53 <jjmcd> perhaps, but learning under fire makes it more exciting
00:50:00 <stickster> We should carry that forward. Can we p
00:50:02 <stickster> oops
00:50:07 <stickster> Can we plan to do another one?
00:50:23 <jjmcd> If we can find breathing space in the schedule
00:50:59 <stickster> Yeah, it is pretty packed.
00:51:02 <stickster> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-docs-tasks.html
00:51:26 <stickster> #info Schedule is pretty packed until F13 GA. We should shoot for just afterward.
00:51:35 <jjmcd> But, maybe we organize a hackfest sort of thing around some schedule item
00:51:36 <stickster> Oh wait.
00:51:37 <stickster> #undo
00:51:38 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x27ad32d0>
00:51:44 <stickster> jjmcd: 'Zactly. How stupid of me.
00:51:58 <jjmcd> gmta
00:52:15 <jjmcd> a dillar a dollar
00:52:16 <stickster> jjmcd: What if we built it around something like "port wiki diff to publican"?
00:52:23 <stickster> That's not quite as hard as the *full* port
00:52:26 <jjmcd> That could be cool
00:52:27 <stickster> And it exposes people to DocBook
00:52:32 <jjmcd> yeah
00:52:38 <stickster> and the reason why wiki -> DocBook is something we only do one way :-)
00:53:15 <quaid> +1
00:53:19 <stickster> jjmcd: How about this --
00:53:28 <jjmcd> Last time we tried to backport fixes to the wiki and that didn't work real well
00:54:14 <stickster> On Wed 2010-04-14, after this meeting, we have a newbie training session in #fedora-docs
00:54:27 <stickster> On Sat 2010-04-17, we have a porting party
00:54:33 <stickster> What do you think?
00:54:57 <jjmcd> let me look at my calendar, that day sounds suspicious
00:55:08 <stickster> OK, we'll figure out dates on the list
00:55:13 <stickster> We don't need to have the answer here
00:55:44 <stickster> #action stickster to start conversation on list about a working party around porting diffs from wiki to DocBook during 2010-04-12 -- 2010-04-19
00:55:47 <jjmcd> Oh, OK, not so bad
00:56:05 <stickster> Last 5 min
00:56:06 <jjmcd> I'll be in Lansing that day, but I should be back early so no prob
00:56:14 <stickster> #topic All Other Business (AOB)
00:56:18 <stickster> Anything else we should cover?
00:56:50 * jjmcd had something but lost it
00:56:56 <stickster> :-)
00:57:28 <stickster> OK, I think that's a wrap then!  In 15...
00:57:36 <stickster> 10...
00:57:42 <stickster> 5...
00:57:51 <stickster> #endmeeting