21:19:59 <kanarip> #startmeeting Spins SIG
21:19:59 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Feb 22 21:19:59 2010 UTC.  The chair is kanarip. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:20:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:20:10 <kanarip> #topic Roll Call
21:20:12 * kanarip is here
21:20:16 * nirik is around
21:20:20 * Southern_Gentlem 
21:20:34 <kanarip> maxamillion, ping
21:20:36 <kanarip> biertie, ping
21:20:44 <kanarip> huff, ping
21:20:46 <kanarip> sdziallas, ping
21:20:55 * sdziallas hollers
21:20:59 <maxamillion> kanarip: pong
21:21:13 <kanarip> good afternoon fellows, sorry i'm late!
21:21:24 <kanarip> brunowolff, ping
21:21:30 <kanarip> #topic Agenda
21:21:36 <kanarip> who's got items on the agenda?
21:21:36 <rdieter> hi, I'll sit in a bit (will have to leave in about 30 minutes though)
21:21:45 <nirik> I can report on the status on nightly spins.
21:21:46 <kanarip> i have the Board SWG thing
21:22:10 <kanarip> hey rdieter ;-)
21:22:48 <kanarip> nirik, why don't you go ahead with the nightly spins
21:22:54 <kanarip> #topic nightly spins (nirik)
21:22:57 <nirik> ok.
21:23:11 <nirik> So, I have the nightly composes machine doing f13 branched images.
21:23:23 <kanarip> from f13-pending, right?
21:23:30 <nirik> If there is demand for rawhide we can see if we can do that, but I think mostly people will want to test f13.
21:23:36 <nirik> yep.
21:23:48 <kanarip> are you using the F-13-Alpha branch, or master?
21:23:50 <nirik> All of the spins are composing the last few days except for the aos/x86_64 one.
21:23:51 * sdziallas nods, f13 sounds reasonable.
21:24:10 <nirik> kanarip: for the ks files? i think it's still set to master...
21:24:33 <nirik> I can probibly change that if someone tells me the git foo to do so. ;)
21:24:40 <kanarip> nirik, ok... i think that aligns with how master is used right now
21:24:56 <nirik> so, everyone should start checking on sizes and any other issues they have now that everyhting is composing.
21:25:00 <kanarip> but we may need to take into account the rolling rawhide thing in how we approach our own git repo as well
21:25:30 <kanarip> #agreed Spin maintainers to check the sizes of their spins in the nightly composes
21:25:34 <kanarip> nirik, have a link for us?
21:25:40 <kanarip> so they can go in the minutes?
21:25:49 <nirik> http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/
21:25:57 <kanarip> #link http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/
21:25:58 <nirik> oh, the aos thing is my fault. I will fix my script. ;)
21:26:01 <maxamillion> bah! ... beat me to it :)
21:26:19 * nirik notes meetbot finds links automagically now, you don't have to #link them.
21:26:24 <kanarip> nirik, i wouldn't mind getting a failure report and/or a sizes report when the spins are done
21:26:32 <kanarip> thanks, i didn't know that ;-)
21:26:41 <nirik> kanarip: to the spins list? yeah, I can see what I can do there.
21:27:07 <nirik> thats about all I had on this topic. ;)
21:27:08 <kanarip> nirik, if it turns out people find it annoying, we can maybe have a spins-nightly list created
21:27:35 <kanarip> but it's nice to see how things are changing
21:27:41 <kanarip> ok, thanks!
21:27:51 <kanarip> let's move on to the Board SWG thing then
21:28:04 <kanarip> #topic Board Special Work Group on Target Audiences
21:28:23 <kanarip> i think we still need to come to a consensus as to what our answer will be
21:29:03 <kanarip> i've drafted a response of my own personal opinion, but ended up talking about Fedora Unity Re-Spins more then the Spins SIG perspective
21:29:18 <Southern_Gentlem> !
21:29:44 <kanarip> Southern_Gentlem, go ahead
21:30:20 <Southern_Gentlem> the Fedora target audience is so vast there is no way to define a single type of group, There are Desktop users, college students, developers, and grandparents
21:30:33 <Southern_Gentlem> hobbyist etc
21:30:46 <maxamillion> I guess I don't entirely understand what the Board wants from us
21:31:24 <brunowolff> I am here now, I was off talking to someone else at work.
21:31:39 <kanarip> maxamillion, the board wants us to tell them how the Spins SIG sees target audiences currently, and how the Spins SIG thinks these would align with the target audiences of the Fedora Project as a whole
21:31:51 <kanarip> or, would not align
21:32:10 <kanarip> or, what we would like the board to consider with regards to target audiences, from our perspective
21:32:45 <Southern_Gentlem> maxamillion,  IMHO someone came up with this target audience thing and is trying to narrow down what the target audience for fedora is and its too big of a swing in all directions
21:33:06 * nirik thinks each spin has it's own idea of who it's targeting.
21:33:23 <rdieter> from my own (completely biased point of view), the board's target audience is pretty much aligned only with itself (ie, the desktop spin)
21:33:29 <rdieter> nirik: yeah
21:33:41 <kanarip> so, I'd say that since the target audience of a spin can be very specific (AOS Spin) to specific / general (Games) to general (XFCE/LXDE), we need to be able to define our own on a per spin basis
21:33:45 <biertie> srry I'm late :)
21:34:09 <kanarip> which options out of all of them defines that best, i don't really care
21:34:12 <maxamillion> kanarip: in my opinion, we are complimentary to the Fedora target audience ... otherwise we'd be pointless, if we catered to the same audience we would be duplicating work
21:34:24 <maxamillion> I thought these sorts of things were just understood
21:34:42 <kanarip> for those of you that just enter this topic, the link is at http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/spins/2010-February/000996.html
21:35:10 <brunowolff> I don't think we want the spins target a subset of the desktop, but rather allow targeting any reasonable group.
21:35:52 <brunowolff> I don't think there will be many conflicts caused by this, but there might be occasional ones.
21:36:06 <kanarip> so, in short, we would like to have all the liberty in the world to define our own target audience for each spin?
21:36:25 <kanarip> from where i'm sitting, we have two options
21:36:25 <nirik> I think there should be some limit under the 'fedora project' umbrella however. Basically targets must still use fedora packages and try and follow the high level goals of open source, etc.
21:36:49 <kanarip> 1) conform with the Fedora Project target audiences and see which of ours fit which general target audience that they've defined
21:36:58 <kanarip> 2) we choose our own (per spin)
21:37:30 <maxamillion> I'm going to stay out of this ... I just don't see a point in it
21:38:17 <biertie> kanarip: I would think we need something between 1 and 2: not total freedom, but still a lot of freedom
21:38:17 <kanarip> i think it's mandatory to go with 2), not in the last place to have some place in the project to try something different, something new
21:38:35 <biertie> every spin still has to apply to the core principles of the fedora project
21:39:01 <kanarip> if it were to be 1), we'd have to knock off a few spins off the list already, that are too specifically aimed at a niche target audience
21:39:21 <biertie> true
21:39:37 <brunowolff> I haven't heard anyone in our group (including last week's meeting) argue for 1.
21:39:39 <kanarip> now, we could say, that spins conforming with 1) are part of the release, and 2) "not necessarily be part of the release"
21:40:59 <kanarip> shall we take a vote on 2) then? +1 is agree, +0 is disagree; if we have a majority we can strike either one of the two
21:41:18 <brunowolff> +1 for option 2
21:41:22 <kanarip> +1 from me too
21:41:52 <biertie> +1 too :)
21:42:09 <kanarip> nirik, what do you think?
21:42:25 * nirik thinks there is too much abstract in this, but sure +1...
21:43:11 <kanarip> ok, that's a wrap
21:43:50 <kanarip> #agreed The Spins SIG would prefer to be able to have each Spin define it's own target audience, not per-se conform either one of the target audiences for the Fedora Project as a whole
21:44:00 <kanarip> hmm
21:44:23 <kanarip> s/to be able to have each Spin/to have each Spin be able to/
21:44:53 <rdieter> nirik has a point, it's a bit hard to evaluate how one wants to align, without knowing first what it is we're aligning with (or not).
21:45:52 <kanarip> you would be aligning with the general concept of having target audiences for the Fedora Project as a whole, with whatever the implications might be
21:45:59 <kanarip> that's the "what" right there
21:47:21 <maxamillion> rdieter: +1
21:48:05 <brunowolff> I think we (spins) are most interested in making sure the spins align technically with the project and are maintainable rather
21:48:21 <rdieter> would it be too terrible for me to say that I just hope to get all the target audience hubub over and done with so that we can all just get back to work? :)
21:48:24 <brunowolff> than worrying about what the target audience for spins are.
21:49:18 <nirik> rdieter: +1
21:50:04 <kanarip> Should I mention such in my response as well then?
21:51:19 <maxamillion> rdieter: +1
21:52:35 <kanarip> i'm agreeing as well
21:52:58 <kanarip> in fact, i'll say that this target audience crap is fscking nonsense as far as i'm concerned
21:53:42 <brunowolff> I actually think it is useful, but the impact on spins other than desktop should be pretty low.
21:53:43 <rdieter> it's hard... I don't want to give the impression of not appreciating the board's work here (even if I don't fully understand what it is or where it's going).
21:53:45 <biertie> hehe, don't say that aloud  KageSenshi ;-)
21:53:46 <maxamillion> kanarip: I see the merit in it as described by Jesse about needing something to be "default" for precedence
21:53:47 <biertie> kanarip:
21:53:53 <kanarip> yet, the question is asked and while i think i'm wasting my time, i feel obliged to answer it truthfully and well and honestly
21:54:39 <brunowolff> My view on why the board is asking us, is too see if it is going to cause us a lot of problems if they go down that route.
21:54:46 <brunowolff> They are being polite.
21:54:56 <kanarip> let's just say it just doesn't concern me, and i don't want any of that on my plate
21:55:15 * nirik thinks we aren't adding much here, shall we move on?
21:55:22 <kanarip> yups
21:55:35 <kanarip> #topic Open Floor
21:56:02 <brunowolff> Games spin is OK this week.
21:59:17 <kanarip> brunowolff, that's nice
22:00:14 <kanarip> what do we think about the terms "Spin" vs. "Remix", if anything?
22:02:25 <brunowolff> I think remix's are really outside our purview.
22:02:38 <biertie> brunowolff: +1
22:02:46 <kanarip> ok
22:04:06 <maxamillion> I personally don't care between the two, as I stated in the *long* thread where I asked if the point of the Board SWG was to kill the spins or not, it really isn't a topic I would lose sleep over ... its nice to be an official spin and get all the attention, logos, and efforts of the group at large ... but its just symantics in the end
22:08:23 <nirik> are we done then? I don't have anything else...
22:08:35 <brunowolff> +1 for done
22:08:48 <kanarip> ok
22:08:52 <kanarip> #endmeeting