02:00:30 <StabbyMc> #startmeeting
02:00:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov 18 02:00:30 2009 UTC.  The chair is StabbyMc. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
02:00:30 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
02:00:59 <StabbyMc> #topic Fedora NA Ambassarors Meeting
02:01:01 <dramsey> .fas dramsey
02:01:04 <zodbot> dramsey: dramsey 'David Ramsey' <diamond_ramsey@hotmail.com>
02:01:06 <StabbyMc> #info roll call
02:01:19 <StabbyMc> .fas smcbrien
02:01:20 <zodbot> StabbyMc: smcbrien '' <scott@mcbrien.net>
02:01:24 <crossbytes> .fas crossbytes
02:01:24 <makfinsky> .fas makfinsky
02:01:25 <zodbot> crossbytes: crossbytes 'Kevin Higgins' <Kevin@crossbytes.org>
02:01:28 <zodbot> makfinsky: makfinsky '' <ivan.makfinsky@endosys.com>
02:01:44 <lcameron> .fas lcameron
02:01:44 <ke4qqq> .fas ke4qqq
02:01:44 <zodbot> lcameron: lcameron 'Leigh Cameron' <leighc@gmail.com>
02:01:46 <dnhodgson> .fas dnhodgson
02:01:47 <zodbot> ke4qqq: ke4qqq 'David Nalley' <david@gnsa.us>
02:01:50 <zodbot> dnhodgson: dnhodgson 'Darcy Hodgson' <dnhodgson@gmail.com>
02:02:09 <VileGent> .fas jbwillia
02:02:10 <zodbot> VileGent: jbwillia 'Ben Williams' <vaioof@yahoo.com> - jbwilliams 'Jason Williams' <jb.williams@tiscali.co.uk>
02:02:34 <djf_jeff> .fas jfsaucier
02:02:36 <zodbot> djf_jeff: jfsaucier 'Jean-Francois Saucier' <jfsaucier@infoglobe.ca>
02:02:58 <laubersm> .fas laubersm
02:02:58 <LAWeber> .fas LAWeber
02:02:58 <zodbot> laubersm: laubersm 'Susan Lauber' <susan@ties.org>
02:03:01 <zodbot> LAWeber: laweber 'Lawrence A. Weber' <laweber@verizon.net>
02:03:21 <StabbyMc> Anybody else?
02:03:54 <StabbyMc> #topic Announcements
02:04:15 <StabbyMc> If you got 'em, let them fly ;-)
02:04:22 <Ac-town> me
02:04:25 <Ac-town> .fas actown
02:04:26 <zodbot> Ac-town: actown 'Derrick Dymock' <actown@gmail.com> - acactown 'Acac Town' <acactown@gmail.com>
02:05:11 <StabbyMc> #topic Events
02:05:24 * StabbyMc yeilds the floor to lcafiero
02:06:25 <StabbyMc> So that he can talk about SCaLE
02:06:40 <StabbyMc> If he was here...
02:06:46 <makfinsky> SCaLE? What is that?
02:07:08 <StabbyMc> Southern California Linux Expo
02:07:30 <StabbyMc> spot went last year and said it was cool.
02:07:39 <dramsey> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SCaLE_8x_Event
02:07:43 <makfinsky> Ah, that would have been nice to attend.
02:07:44 <ke4qqq> SCaLE was awesome last year
02:08:37 <StabbyMc> lcafiero had it on the meeting agenda, hopefully he'll mosey in and can talk about it.
02:08:47 <StabbyMc> Until then, anyone else have events to discuss?
02:09:30 <VileGent> any fudcon news?
02:10:06 <inode0> it is in Toronto!
02:10:54 <makfinsky> I wish I was going.
02:11:02 <StabbyMc> Ok, so pressing on then ;-)
02:11:11 <StabbyMc> Budget?  spevack?
02:11:22 <StabbyMc> not here.
02:11:41 <StabbyMc> #topic Task List Review
02:11:57 <StabbyMc> #info Fedora button downs
02:12:11 <StabbyMc> I got the approved proof of the fedora button downs.
02:12:20 <StabbyMc> I should get the shirt this week.
02:12:39 <makfinsky> Rocking, count me in for a shirt, maybe two.
02:12:55 <StabbyMc> I'll take pictures once I've got it, and we can coordinate an order.
02:13:42 <StabbyMc> They're going to be white, and not specifically tagged as "ambassador" swag, so if any one in the community wants one, they can.
02:13:42 <dramsey> +1 for shirts!
02:13:43 <kaio> hi I am from APAC, but nice to meet you guy
02:13:47 <kaio> s
02:14:34 <StabbyMc> hey kaio: we're having the NA Ambassadors meeting.
02:15:05 <StabbyMc> I was hoping to have the pics of the shirt tonight, but no.
02:15:10 <StabbyMc> But this week.
02:15:14 <inode0> there seem to be some general swag shortages ...
02:15:29 <StabbyMc> #info swag shortages
02:15:55 <inode0> F12 media is ordered and should arrive end of month
02:16:09 <ke4qqq> expected wasn't it?? with the wind down of F11 and the event year, right?
02:16:09 <inode0> but aside from pens and tattoos things are lean
02:16:10 <kaio> StabbyMc☺ yeah thats why wanna say hello from another side of the globe
02:16:24 <StabbyMc> inode0: that's shipped to the regional heads?
02:16:54 <inode0> some of it, some will go to FUDCon and Canada this time
02:17:01 <StabbyMc> media that is.
02:17:08 <inode0> right
02:17:14 <crossbytes> so how much? is there a price break for a certain #? how do "we" get them do we supply them to "community"  as ambassadors .. the shirts..
02:17:41 <inode0> buy one or more if you want them I think will be the arrangement, just like polos
02:17:44 <StabbyMc> crossbytes: Not really a break on the number unless we're ordering upwards of 50
02:17:56 <VileGent> 300
02:17:58 <StabbyMc> crossbytes: they're $30 + shipping.
02:18:13 <inode0> FAmNA isn't buying them, individuals are
02:18:19 <StabbyMc> And an additional $2.00 per X you want over XL.
02:18:21 <ke4qqq> and that's about what the polos are iirc
02:19:15 <StabbyMc> I'll send out an e-mail to Ambassador list once I've got it in my hands.
02:19:22 <inode0> my concern in raising this topic is that if people out of swag want more someone needs to know what?
02:19:23 <dramsey> FYI, I have vendor who does a carry bag and hats, if you are interested to consider.  Also, I have gotten other shirts (fleece) from, too.
02:19:32 <nb> is this famna meeting?
02:19:34 * nb is here if it is
02:19:46 <StabbyMc> nb: indeed it is.
02:20:01 <ke4qqq> dramsey: if you are willing to do the work of getting things lined up, bring us a proposal
02:20:15 * inode0 always wants hats
02:20:18 <ke4qqq> me too
02:20:24 * lcameron likes hats too
02:20:24 <dramsey> Understood ---> 8-)
02:20:35 * StabbyMc feels that way about fleece.
02:21:01 <StabbyMc> inode0: so wha's up with the swag shortage.
02:21:08 <dnhodgson> i would like to buy some touques for up here in Canada
02:21:12 <StabbyMc> Do we want to just order replacements of what we've got?
02:21:25 <ke4qqq> touqes?
02:21:35 <dnhodgson> winter hat
02:22:06 <inode0> I keep hearing people are basically out of stuff, if they don't want to say that here or what they want then we can move on
02:22:22 <ke4qqq> inode0: are you not out?
02:22:24 <inode0> Must not be an important problem
02:22:47 <ke4qqq> I am out of case badges and shirts, and pretty low on media
02:22:50 <inode0> I'm not out, but I'm low enough I can't send stuff to everyone
02:22:57 <ke4qqq> but that's about it
02:23:22 <ke4qqq> dnhodgson: ohhhh a watch cap......
02:24:23 <crossbytes> The only thing I am out of right now is shirts...but I am waiting for the F12 media Larry was going to talk to me about OSCON.. since it is going to be back in Portland.
02:27:02 <StabbyMc> The only other thing I have outstanding on my task list is window clings, and I'll start being active on it again after shirts get handled.
02:27:21 <StabbyMc> I for one would like to see a re-order of case badges.
02:27:34 <StabbyMc> And, although they're expensive, splatter tees.
02:27:58 <ke4qqq> +1 for case badges and splatter
02:28:21 <dramsey> +1
02:28:27 <inode0> ok, that will be more than 3k in the same quantities, we need spevack to tell us if that is even remotely possible
02:28:28 <laubersm> +1 for case badges
02:28:36 <VileGent> how are we on the buttons as well
02:28:44 <VileGent> +1 case badges
02:29:00 <crossbytes> +1 for case badges and splatter shirts...
02:29:03 <VileGent> and do we want more buttons
02:29:08 <ke4qqq> inode0: is it cheaper for us to increase quantity
02:29:13 <Ac-town> +1
02:29:16 <ke4qqq> I mean cheaper as in per unit
02:29:41 <inode0> with about a 5k budget and media + FUDCon I'm thinking 3k more for swag is maybe not happening
02:30:02 <StabbyMc> If I had to choose, I'd say casebadges are the priority, but that's me.
02:30:17 <ke4qqq> it might happen - depends on the other regions and their spending
02:30:20 <inode0> ke4qqq: the badges are quite cheap once you hit a certain point around 1k
02:30:37 <ke4qqq> $1k or 1k in quantity
02:30:46 <ke4qqq> how many did we order last time?
02:30:47 <VileGent> and we proable dont have a setup charge again
02:31:07 <inode0> no, they cost about $1 each for the first 1000 and then they get cheaper, closer to 10 cents each iirc
02:31:46 <inode0> I just remember the bill was around 1400
02:32:02 <inode0> so I'm guessing it was 3k or 4k maybe
02:32:33 <ke4qqq> k
02:33:13 <ke4qqq> inode0: I thought we had another 8k come dec 1
02:33:19 <ke4qqq> and 3k was going to media
02:33:21 <ke4qqq> iirc
02:33:40 <inode0> I'm not clear on the budget to be honest
02:33:50 <ke4qqq> and the budget page still shows 6k available globally
02:33:56 <ke4qqq> but we'd have to spend it 'real soon'
02:34:03 <ke4qqq> spevack: ping
02:34:13 <StabbyMc> he's not in chan.
02:34:33 <inode0> not talking anyway :)
02:34:42 <nb> about how much do tees cost?
02:34:51 <inode0> 300 cost about 1800
02:35:01 <ke4qqq> nb: depends - splatter are a bit over 5 each
02:35:08 <ke4qqq> the previous design was ~3 each
02:35:08 <inode0> or we can go back to the white ones for something more like 1300
02:35:46 * nb thinks +1 to both, or if that isn't practical +1 to case badges
02:36:21 <inode0> I sort of think we should go back to the cheaper t-shirts and get more of them if we have 1800 for them again
02:36:52 <nb> what were they like?
02:37:03 <ke4qqq> perhaps we should see if ianweller or $designperson wants to design a new shirt
02:37:16 <ke4qqq> nb: just a fedora logo on white
02:37:20 <nb> oh ok
02:37:24 <nb> color or black & white?
02:37:27 <inode0> but both sides had something
02:37:28 <ke4qqq> color
02:37:36 <nb> that sounds like a good idea too
02:37:40 <nb> if its that much difference in price
02:37:54 <inode0> the extra colors add a lot of expense
02:38:05 <ke4qqq> yes, and it depends on which version of the shirt it was
02:40:11 <VileGent> inode +1
02:40:24 * inode0 would like to see us get stickers but isn't volunteering
02:40:40 <ke4qqq> does someone want to volunteer to work on stickers???
02:41:01 <StabbyMc> inode0: I've got it on my list, but if someone wants things to move faster, they can step up :-)
02:41:02 <crossbytes> R we going to go to live DVD for F13? was there a decision made on the "ratio" of live to install media? 32-bit : 64-bit? sorry did not mean to interrupt about the tee's..
02:41:12 <VileGent> i have looked but they were to dang expensive
02:41:32 * nb likes the idea of live dvd
02:41:44 <inode0> I don't know about F13
02:42:08 <inode0> for F12 we ordered 3k live, 1.5k 32-bit DVD, and 1k 64-bit DVD
02:42:26 <inode0> all of the live is 32-bit
02:42:36 <inode0> and gnome
02:43:07 <ke4qqq> inode0: really??? /me wonders why I have so many DVDs left
02:43:18 <ke4qqq> seems like I got 600 of each
02:43:19 <inode0> we ordered more last time
02:43:27 <ke4qqq> ahhh /me gets it
02:43:41 <inode0> trying to get closer each time to what we actually need
02:43:50 <ke4qqq> yeah and that sounds about right
02:44:17 <VileGent> ke4qqq also for f13 we hit the summer-fall big event time as well
02:44:43 * ke4qqq wonders if we want to ever consider a kde livecd
02:45:01 <Ac-town> ^ +1
02:45:09 <crossbytes> oh btw we ran into a problem at linuxcon all of the LIVE CD's were Install DVD's that were in the Event box...so we had no live cd's to give out..
02:45:10 <makfinsky> +1 kde livecd
02:45:33 <crossbytes> the sleve said Live but they were Install DVD's
02:45:53 <ke4qqq> crossbytes: both sides said Live?
02:46:00 <dramsey> I am routing my users over to I will load your USB key with the media during my events, too as food for thought...  :)
02:46:06 <crossbytes> Yes ..
02:46:19 <dramsey> +1 for media
02:47:11 <ke4qqq> anyone know if flash media has dropped in price enough to be reasonable?
02:47:27 <StabbyMc> ke4qqq: we looked like a month ago, and no.
02:47:51 <ke4qqq> ughhh ohh well
02:49:09 <inode0> honestly I want to consider only live
02:49:26 <dramsey> +1 for live, too.
02:49:44 <inode0> almost no one in NA takes a DVD back to their room and installs from it and almost everyone in NA can download it
02:50:14 <inode0> with live media they can and do go back and try it out right then
02:50:28 <dnhodgson> +1 to that
02:51:02 <dramsey> Very logical indeed.  +1 for the inode's insight and wisdom
02:51:18 <ke4qqq> interesting thought
02:51:21 <makfinsky> +1 to the insightful one.
02:51:26 <ke4qqq> does that mean we should move to livedvd?
02:51:38 <inode0> I think that is likely to happen
02:52:02 <inode0> it may be a moot point if we only produce live dvds in the future
02:52:20 * ke4qqq wishes anaconda on the livecd offered more options, then I'd fully support the move away from install dvds
02:52:23 <inode0> dropping CDs seems to be inevitable
02:52:51 <ke4qqq> in NA I agree, but not sure about other regions
02:52:55 <StabbyMc> Maybe we could have the isolinux bootloader offer to boot live or go into the installer?
02:53:55 <ke4qqq> yeah - though we'd prolly need to talk to fesco about such things, but should be accomplishable
02:54:37 * laubersm likes that idea...
02:54:57 <nb> +1 to Live DVD
02:55:01 <dramsey> In turn, this nudges the person in order to do what they could do...which is download install content themselves...empowering the person.
02:55:03 <makfinsky> That's a pretty easy change to isolinux.
02:55:08 <dramsey> +1 to idea.
02:55:13 <LAWeber> I hate to see the loss of CD's.  Lot's of people are willing to try new OS on old equipment
02:55:20 <nb> LAWeber, true
02:55:33 <nb> although, if we ant to keep livecd, i like the idea of booting into an installer
02:55:34 <crossbytes> Keep an eye on lzma + squashfs for 2.6.33. (Phillip has indicated this will happen.) quoting from  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Games_Spin this is needed to realy do Live DVD's
02:55:58 <inode0> this will be a board/fesco thing to decide - I'm hearing it discussed as a future path though
02:56:00 <nb> or if the installer won't download additional packages, maybe have the installer either boot into livecd or into netinstall
02:56:41 <StabbyMc> #topic open floor
02:56:53 <StabbyMc> We've kind of already moved there, so I figured I'd make it official.
02:56:58 <inode0> the live CDs are a bit too restricted to fairly show the power of Fedora as it is
02:57:26 <VileGent> if the livedvd gives choice then i am for it
02:57:29 <inode0> what crap is this? no open office even?
02:57:33 <dramsey> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Toronto_2009 my best to you all for this event in just over two weeks, Toronto, Ontario December 5th-7th, 2009.  8-)
02:58:05 <dramsey> +1 to choice and freedom!
02:59:30 <StabbyMc> So what/who is going to take the next step and talk to FESCo?
03:00:25 <inode0> not us :)
03:00:47 <StabbyMc> So why are we talking about it?
03:00:55 <inode0> we drifted
03:01:07 <StabbyMc> What?  Damn it, I'm a bad moderator.
03:01:17 <StabbyMc> Ok, so other open floor items?
03:01:19 <inode0> for F13 I'd like us to consider only producing live media, whether those are CDs or DVDs
03:01:48 <inode0> if we only produce live media it would be easy to add KDE to the mix
03:01:54 <inode0> now it is too expensive
03:01:57 <crossbytes> I am sorry my fault.. This has been brought up on the dev list..
03:02:48 <inode0> it is no problem
03:02:51 <ke4qqq> so foreseeing potential issues down the road......
03:03:33 <ke4qqq> how do we handle the situation where - $exoticDE wants us to do their live media
03:03:37 <ke4qqq> since aside from the 'default' spin, the rest are equals.
03:03:39 * ke4qqq ducks now
03:03:50 <inode0> we can say it costs too much unless there is demand
03:04:15 <inode0> we can say that about KDE too, I have zero people asking me for KDE based media
03:04:44 <ke4qqq> maybe that's because we have only ever offered Gnome
03:04:53 <inode0> but I'm not against trying it once and finding out if it is just as popular
03:05:00 <laubersm> do we have a "other spins are available at" footnote on the covers?
03:05:01 <ke4qqq> schroedingers cat type thing
03:05:14 <inode0> people on show floors don't know what we have
03:05:14 <ke4qqq> laubersm: we don't now
03:05:25 <inode0> and they don't ask for KDE media in my experience
03:05:47 <ke4qqq> so part of the KDE opportunity I see is this:
03:06:02 <ke4qqq> 1. We typically lead with KDE releases - we release the latest first
03:06:19 <ke4qqq> 2. That's a good way for KDE to show off (and us too)
03:06:48 <ke4qqq> We'd be helping the KDE community, and hopefully garnering some good will (and additional contributors) in the process
03:07:17 <inode0> as I said I am in favor of trying KDE live media, we just can't do 6 different kinds of media so something else has to go
03:07:49 <ke4qqq> true
03:07:54 <inode0> I think install DVDs should go for unrelated reasons creating an opportunity
03:09:21 <inode0> I will note that on the FreeMedia front in NA almost all requests are for 32-bit install DVDs
03:10:12 <StabbyMc> Not that I want to discourage the discussion, but it's getting late.  Maybe we can put some brainstorm ideas on the agenda for next meeting?  I think if we have some time to think about it we might come up with some different ideas.  inode0 would you be opposed to putting your thoughts on the agenda?
03:10:14 <dramsey> +1 to choice, experience, freedom, and KDE.  I am a Gnome system person.  ;)
03:10:26 <ke4qqq> +1 StabbyMc
03:10:53 <makfinsky> +1 StabbyMc
03:10:53 <crossbytes> +1 StabbyMc
03:10:57 <dramsey> +1
03:10:59 <Ac-town> +1
03:11:00 * inode0 would be less opposed to you putting his thoughts on the agenda :)
03:11:14 <StabbyMc> inode0: I don't have your thoughts.
03:11:18 <StabbyMc> ;-)
03:11:24 <inode0> I just put them into the record
03:11:36 <dramsey> May be a vulcan mindmeld is needed with Paul Frields and others,, in order to help promote your live DVD initiatives?
03:11:37 <lcameron> +1
03:11:39 <StabbyMc> throw me a frickin' bone ;-)
03:12:24 <StabbyMc> inode0: you and I can talk about it tomorrow sometime; so I'm sure to get all the high points.
03:12:33 <StabbyMc> Ok, other open floor items?
03:12:55 <ke4qqq> btw StabbyMc thanks for showing up at the mythtv event - it was very good representation for Mr. Ladds to have looked up my email and said something about it.
03:13:33 <StabbyMc> ke4qqq: No problem.  Preston is a good guy, also in ale.  I've been trying to get there more often to represent.
03:14:21 <StabbyMc> ke4qqq; thanks for the kudos :-)
03:14:29 <StabbyMc> Ok, so I'm going to call the meeting.
03:14:36 <StabbyMc> Unless someone stops me.
03:14:42 <StabbyMc> 5
03:14:45 <dramsey> Thank you StabbyMc for being the moderator.
03:14:48 <makfinsky> Thx StabbyMc for hosting.
03:14:52 <StabbyMc> 4
03:15:02 <StabbyMc> 3
03:15:08 <StabbyMc> 2
03:15:14 <StabbyMc> 1
03:15:16 <StabbyMc> #endmeeting