20:01:08 <mchua> #startmeeting
20:01:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Sep  1 20:01:08 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:01:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:01:10 <kushal> mchua, present
20:01:12 <mchua> #topic Roll Call
20:01:16 <sdziallas> mchua: oh oh :) I'm here (will
20:01:17 * quaid lurks
20:01:20 <kushal> KushalDas
20:01:22 <mchua> Whoa, lots of people! Woo!
20:01:22 <sdziallas> ...probably need to run early, though)
20:01:28 <sdziallas> SebastianDziallas
20:01:29 <mchua> No worries, we'll catch what we can. :)
20:01:32 * mchua is Mel Chua
20:02:26 * mchua waits a minute or two for folks to trickle in
20:02:26 * rbergeron is here.
20:03:42 <mchua> Ok, let's begin. We've got a lot to cover.
20:03:44 <mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_meetings#Agenda
20:03:56 * mchua splurts the agenda here
20:03:57 <mchua> * Are things going to be chaotic for people for a week or two (as summer ends and fall begins and the school year starts)?
20:03:57 <mchua> * Release deliverables: see http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-marketing-tasks.html for the full schedule.
20:03:57 <mchua> o F12 talking points and feature profiles - recruiting college marketing classes to sprint on these; mentorship/editing/feedback/reviewers needed, when we find them.
20:03:58 <mchua> o Coming up next week: the call for release slogans opens up.
20:04:00 <mchua> o Coming up soon: Briefing Ambassadors. We need to find out what Ambassadors need!
20:04:02 <mchua> o Much later in the cycle: press kits, screenshots, F12 tour.
20:04:04 <mchua> * Fedora Insight status, questions.
20:04:08 <mchua> o Modules/packaging status: Zikula guruhood needed
20:04:10 <mchua> o Workflow (pretty much done)
20:04:12 <mchua> o Skins/design - what do you need from us?
20:04:14 <mchua> * Increasing our Marketing-fu
20:04:16 <mchua> o Marketing research - ideas on what we could do (rbergeron)
20:04:18 <mchua> o Marketing plan - working with RH Marketing folks
20:04:20 <mchua> o Working with Marketing classes
20:04:22 <mchua> o Marketing Classroom with Sean Daly
20:04:24 <mchua> * If you have a question you'd like to bring up, a topic you'd like to discuss, or something you'd like to do, please add it to this list.
20:04:27 * mchua winces. Okay, that's a long one. We've got a lot to get through this week.
20:04:29 <mchua> Holler if you have things you'd like to bring up, as always.
20:04:33 <mchua> #topic How are folks doing?
20:05:07 <mchua> First, I wanted to get a quick gauge on how hosed everyone is, and how hosed people are going to be - I know this is a big transition time for students and parents and anyone in contact with schools in general
20:05:32 <mchua> and I want to make sure we load-balance so that folks don't feel overwhelmed. Is anyone going to need a bit of space this week or next to start the school year?
20:06:05 <mchua> If so, *please* holler to the list, and those of us who aren't affected by the school year's start can pick up on some things.
20:06:12 <mchua> That's all I had for that.
20:06:20 <rbergeron> my hosing is already pretty much done, but thank you :)
20:06:32 <mchua> rbergeron: Ah! I should have asked last week, then.
20:06:57 <mchua> Ok, next!
20:06:58 <rbergeron> or two weeks ago... and in a couple years, you'll probably want to start asking in june, because school seems to start earlier every year :\
20:07:12 <mchua> Yikes. Okay, note to self for August, then.
20:07:15 <rbergeron> lol
20:07:34 * mchua remembers when school started in September. In fall. Like a proper school year start.Not this "it's summer! school is starting!" thing.
20:07:36 <mchua> Anyhoo.
20:07:45 <mchua> #topic Release deliverables
20:07:59 <mchua> Release deliverables; they're our bread and butter, and above all else we need to make sure that we hit them.
20:08:14 <mchua> This is stuff like feature profiles, talking points, release announcements - things that have to come out every cycle.
20:08:58 <mchua> Now, a lot of this is work that can be taken and sprinted on; it makes a good project for newcomers who want to come in, do something for a week or two, and then have no further obligations.
20:09:37 <mchua> So what I'm working on is getting the bulk of release deliverable work off the shoulders of everybody here, and onto the shoulders of Marketing students.
20:10:17 <mchua> I've been emailing some Marketing professors that I know - including one who teaches business to engineering students - to see if they'd be interested in doing, say, feature profiles as a class assignment.
20:10:48 <mchua> Which means that all we'd have to do is edit, give feedback, and then publish (and say thank-you).
20:11:02 <mchua> And hopefully it'll get more new contributors in here who have a marketing background as well. :)
20:11:47 <mchua> So I have that on my plate at the moment, although as soon as I find classes to work with, we'll probably need some folks to review their work (I'll interface with them for this release cycle to make sure they get started all right, stay engaged, etc.)
20:12:30 <mchua> If anyone is interested in this, or knows professors/marketing students, I'll send a copy of the email I've been sending to the mailing list, and forwarding is totally fine. ;)
20:12:59 <mchua> #action mchua to forward email to marketing professors about having their classes help with Fedora Marketing deliverables
20:13:07 <quaid> am I being pessimistic, or do I lay too much value on project-based knowledge in wondering how a Marketing student with no Fedora experience can drive-by on e.g. features profiles?
20:13:20 <quaid> that is, unless the raw material is present that they can shape in to a template, for example.
20:13:51 <mchua> quaid: Yep. That's the question - what kind of scaffolding and support needs to be built for these students so they can successfully engage with the community?
20:14:16 <mchua> I think a lot of project-based knowledge is needed.
20:14:24 <quaid> and one other point worth considering ... historically, writing the final, whimsical the release announcement has been treated like an honor to bestow ...
20:14:52 <quaid> so the Alpha, Beta, RC are more burdensome and repeatable ...
20:15:07 * ianweller rolls in
20:15:09 <quaid> the GA rel announcement is sort of special ... historically speaking/
20:15:18 <mchua> quaid: Yeah, the standard ones are the ones we'll be student-sourcing.
20:15:24 * ianweller will only be here for the next 10 minutes fyi
20:15:40 <mchua> quaid: I actually don't know how the release announcement final bestowment process works - is that stickster's call? or...
20:15:45 <mchua> ianweller: j0, jetpack buddy.
20:16:00 <quaid> mchua: back room mystery, really
20:16:06 <mchua> ianweller: got a marketing class at your school that might be interested in helping us write feature profiles? ;)
20:16:11 <mchua> quaid: *dramatic music*
20:16:14 <quaid> stickster is involved in approving, but we've sort-of passed it around w/in Docs
20:16:22 <quaid> since the first time releng asked us to do it
20:16:23 <ianweller> mchua: they're bogged down unfortunately
20:16:32 <ianweller> mchua: but if you want i can find an email address for ya
20:16:36 <quaid> it used to be releng, who used it to release steam :)
20:16:36 <mchua> ianweller: that'd rock.
20:16:58 <quaid> so, a process++ is needed
20:17:15 <quaid> just recommending that we treat the GA announcement as special and bestowable
20:17:36 <quaid> last few have been team efforts; before that, it was Paul-pre-@redhat.com or me doing what we called 'funnily'
20:17:36 <mchua> quaid: Okeydokey. Yup, agreed.
20:18:06 <quaid> i.e., one person has a basic idea then hits writer block; another embellishes; Paul polishes; we're done.
20:18:14 <mchua> I won't interfere with whatever selection process is already there; I figure that when the time comes (as indicated in poelcat's schedule), we can poke our heads into all the relevant places and say "hey, do you need help?" and if they do, we'll figure something out, and document that, and that will be process v.0.N (or whatever.)
20:18:15 * quaid <EOTopic>
20:18:56 <mchua> #agreed Need clarity around how the honor of authoring the final release notes is bestowed.
20:19:15 <mchua> As for the students needing project knowledge - absolutely, right now they'd need project knowledge.
20:19:28 <mchua> That's why I'm going to stick myself in there as an interface this first time.
20:19:32 <mchua> (Help welcome.)
20:19:50 <mchua> However, it's my hope that they *shouldn't* need project knowledge.
20:20:27 <mchua> As in, ideally, these small deliverables that need to happen each release cycle - it would be great if *any* marketing person could come in and spend a few hours tinkering and have that be a small, encapsulated, easy way to help out.
20:20:43 <mchua> That's not the case right now, and I'm not sure what needs to happen to make it be that way, but... that's what I'm hoping to find out.
20:21:07 <quaid> seems possible, but pretty dependent on other items -- such as a succinct way to understand "what Fedora is" + style guide + ...
20:21:41 <mchua> quaid: Yep. Part of the reason I want to do this is that it will compel the building up of those dependencies. :D We'll need them for incoming POSSE classes anyway.
20:22:03 <mchua> Future deliverables coming down the pipeline are things like... screenshots, press kits - these will come up on our radar as the F12 schedule chugs along.
20:22:13 <mchua> #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-marketing-tasks.html
20:22:15 <mchua> for the schedule.
20:23:02 <mchua> So, student-sourcing most of the deliverables when possible, except for the cool final release notes, and the briefing of Ambassadors... I don't know how much we'll be able to do, but we'll see!
20:23:13 * mchua pauses for a moment.
20:23:34 <mchua> Any questions, concerns, thoughts? I know I've just unleashed a tiny whirlwind of info here.
20:23:40 <quaid> s/notes/announcement/g ?
20:23:56 <mchua> quaid: ...yes.
20:24:00 * mchua has english language fail today
20:24:04 <quaid> k :)
20:24:20 * mchua looks around for more thoughts
20:24:31 <mchua> ...okay, mailing list, I suppose. :)
20:25:01 <mchua> Btw, I apologize for being so abysmal about sending things out to the mailing list this week; the past week has been absolutely zonkers for me.
20:25:20 <mchua> Last "deliverable" thought:
20:25:25 <mchua> #topic Briefing Ambassadors about F12
20:25:40 <mchua> We get to do this in approximately 2 weeks.
20:25:57 <mchua> ...how to do it, I am not quite sure.
20:26:03 <mchua> Any Ambassadors around?
20:26:25 * mchua reckons that a lot of folks who's usually say "aye!" right now are at the Red Hat Summit in Chicago at the moment.
20:27:36 <mchua> In addition to "hey, here are the talking points!" there are a few things I'd like to make sure we listen to Ambassadors on.
20:28:01 <mchua> Think of Ambassadors as... sort of Marketing's primary "customers." These are the folks who will take what we do and bring it out into the world.
20:28:34 <mchua> (It's not quite like sales... it's more a process of enrollment... digging up link...)
20:28:45 <mchua> http://www.allbusiness.com/company-activities-management/sales-selling-sales/11550452-1.html
20:29:13 <mchua> (not perfect, but gets the general idea across)
20:29:49 <mchua> So I want to make sure that, yes, Ambassadors understand the talking points (which is another reason I would like students to write them; if we can make the process and product understandable enough for newcomers to write about it, they will write things that will likely be friendlier for newcomers to read)
20:30:07 <mchua> but also that they can ask us for things materials via our queue.
20:30:18 <mchua> #link https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/report/3
20:30:39 <mchua> for instance, EvilBob asked for some installfest marketing materials (https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/ticket/17)
20:30:46 <mchua> it would be great to get more requests like that.
20:31:01 * mchua nudges EvilBob to update ticket so that we can make you things already. ;)
20:31:14 <mchua> welcome, cmehandru!
20:32:16 <mchua> Anyhow, we're going to need Ambassador ambassadors soon - if you know someone, please poke them - I'll also keep pinging when folks get back from the Summit (inode0 has had some good thoughts on the "what can Marketing do for Ambassadors" thing).
20:32:32 <mchua> ...and if anyone can point me towards how these briefings happened in the past, that would be *awesome.*
20:32:49 * mchua pauses for a second
20:33:22 <mchua> Any other thoughts on normal-marketing-release-cycle work (deliverables and briefings)?
20:33:50 <mchua> (please interrupt with questions, comments, or puns at any time)
20:34:12 * rbergeron was just grumbling at her email or lack thereof :)
20:34:17 <rbergeron> i should say... gmail
20:34:45 * mchua hands rbergeron the Large Stick of Functionality Enforcement, for beating-of-the-things-that-are-not-working
20:35:10 * rbergeron is pretty sure the rest of the people using the interwebz are already beating google
20:35:27 <mchua> mm, large sticks.
20:35:49 <mchua> rbergeron: any thoughts/questions on the giant dump of "here's what we're doing to keep up with regular marketing work stuff"?
20:36:08 <rbergeron> not offhand.
20:36:08 <rharrison> rbergeron, IMAP access to gmail is still working fine.
20:36:15 <rbergeron> i see that :)
20:36:36 <mchua> I think we're ready to move on to FI, but want to make sure I'm not monologuing and completely losing everyone. :)
20:36:42 <mchua> ok, FI!
20:36:51 <mchua> #topic Fedora Insight
20:36:53 <rbergeron> don't worry. we're still here :)
20:37:23 <mchua> ...so, I had a lovely wiki page of updated info cross-linked to tasks and emails and... yeah. And then I hit the wrong button and lost it 8 minutes before this meeting started.
20:37:30 <mchua> So my first post-meeting act will be to recreate that.
20:37:46 <mchua> And then send that as my horrendously belated "what's up with FI?" post to marketing and logistics.
20:38:15 <mchua> Workflow is settled (thanks, rbergeron!)
20:38:22 <mchua> rbergeron: btw, where should we look for the workflow writeup?
20:38:47 <rbergeron> it is on my compuer that i am picking up from best buy in approximately 1.5 hours
20:38:54 <rbergeron> sans toy in slot drive
20:38:58 <mchua> and mizmo is coming along with the design; she's at the Summit in Chicago now, but said this might give her more down time to just sprint on this, so that's going nicely.
20:38:58 <rbergeron> sorry :(
20:39:03 <mchua> rbergeron: No worries. :)
20:39:22 <mchua> rbergeron: it's like the first computer bug! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_science#The_first_computer_bug
20:39:24 <rbergeron> i was thinking of posting it ...somewhere? but not sure where.
20:39:33 <rbergeron> other than the mailing list, i suppose.
20:39:55 <mchua> rbergeron: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight would be a great place, I'll add a workflow section for you.
20:40:38 <mchua> Technical zikula deployment is going very, *very* rapidly.
20:41:18 <mchua> abadger1999: Do you have anything particular you need to unblock reviews on those modules, aside from the things already in.. *pulls up email*
20:41:57 <abadger1999> mchua: It's just the pagemaster module.
20:42:16 <abadger1999> mchua: And whether to package filterutil separately or not.
20:42:38 * mchua scratches head; that email doesn't seem to have gone through the lists.
20:42:59 <mchua> #action mchua to check out what happened to zikula modules questions update email to logistics and marketing
20:43:11 <mchua> abadger1999: Ok. And for that, we're waiting to find itbegins.
20:43:40 <mchua> abadger1999: Any particular crunch time or deadline that you'd like to have things done for that by?
20:44:01 <abadger1999> mchua: Should ask mmcgrath that.
20:44:03 <mchua> abadger1999: right now I have #
20:44:04 <mchua> # September 19: All modules needed for proper authentication, permissions, and workflow installed on publictest (from reviewed packages).... but an intermediate deadline would probably be good.
20:44:31 <mchua> abadger1999: Okay. Wasn't sure if you needed/wanted any earlier deadlines (the sep 19 is from talking with mmcgrath about 2 weeks ago).
20:45:10 <abadger1999> That's fine with me... he'll be doing the load testing so he's got the best idea of deadlines
20:45:11 <mchua> ...wait, this month is september.
20:45:20 <mchua> ...I found the thread.
20:45:20 <mchua> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/logistics/2009-September/000206.html
20:45:26 <mchua> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/logistics/2009-September/000206.html
20:45:55 <mchua> #action mchua to followup with itbegins to get information/code/modules/packages/etc. to abadger1999 for FI zikula modules
20:46:14 * mchua wishes there were a way to undo action items on the list, but oh well.
20:46:32 <mchua> Anything else on FI? Any questions, concerns, thoughts...?
20:47:15 <quaid> mchua: maybe have a new action that replaces an old one specifically call that out? just so it's human readable is the key
20:47:19 <mchua> I'm concentrating a lot of our efforts on making this platform super awesome and super easy to use so that things like student-sourcing (and newcomer-sourcing, in general) for standard deliverables can use it.
20:47:47 <mchua> #action mchua never mind finding the zikula modules questions update email to logistics and marketing. Today is no longer August, it's September.
20:48:40 <mchua> #action rbergeron to post FI workflow to mailing list and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight#Workflow once computer is toy-free :)
20:49:08 <mchua> That's what's up with FI, in a nutshell. And again, I'll update that wiki page as soon as this meeting is over.
20:49:39 <mchua> If there are no questions about FI, or giant blockers related to it, let's move on...
20:49:52 <mchua> #topic Marketing-fu++
20:50:11 <mchua> Last week I learned that Red Hat Marketing folks are *TOTALLY AWESOME.*
20:50:44 <mchua> The next time I'm in Raleigh - 2 weeks from now, almost exactly - I'm hoping to sit down with them and go through https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/MarketingPlan
20:50:49 <mchua> and get their thoughts.
20:50:56 <mchua> Before that, I would like to get the thoughts of everybody here.
20:51:01 <mchua> So that will be sent to list.
20:51:06 <mchua> #action mchua send https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/MarketingPlan to list and ask for comments
20:51:47 <mchua> We'll also be bringing Sugar Labs's Sean Daly in for a Fedora Classroom session on Marketing for open source projects.
20:52:14 <mchua> And I'm also hoping the marketing students who'll be helping us will bring their own energy/ideas/expertise/stuff-they're-studying in here.
20:52:52 <mchua> We also talked about doing marketing research last week, to find out where we need to go and what we need to do.
20:52:56 <mchua> #topic marketing research
20:53:01 <rbergeron> wooooot
20:53:10 <mchua> rbergeron: Floor is yours. What are you thinking on this right now?
20:53:26 <rbergeron> so. I had some awesome notes... on my computer-with-a-toy in it
20:53:35 * mchua grins
20:53:36 <rbergeron> but i also had some stuff i sent to myself in gmail which thankfull i can actually see at the moment
20:53:48 <rbergeron> I looked over some of the prior stuff that had been done in years past
20:53:53 <rbergeron> "past" being the major operative word here
20:54:00 <mchua> rbergeron: Ok. Do you want to go through that now, or wait until the computer gets back and do it next week or on the mailing list?
20:54:11 * mchua nods - we have marketing data from... something like... 4 years ago
20:54:17 <rbergeron> eh, I have some notes here i can go off of :)
20:54:39 <rbergeron> so it seems there are two routes that can be gone down.
20:54:45 <rbergeron> both, or either.
20:55:09 <rbergeron> First: It seems like much of the research in the past had been very fedora-centric, and mostly from a community-member or user standpoint.
20:55:31 <rbergeron> And I think that stuff is important to continue. Things like getitng feedback on fudcon's, community polls, etc.
20:55:54 <rbergeron> I think one question to answer is whether or not Fedora wants to take some of what the community is looking for (assuming we could get that information)
20:56:03 <rbergeron> and driving that into what is happening in engineering.
20:56:12 <rbergeron> Because I'm not seeing a lot of "users want this, users want that" going on.
20:56:29 <rbergeron> Or, users overwhelmingly requested these 12 features, and we delivered 87% of them, or whatever.
20:56:36 * mchua notes that we are deliberately not talking about FUDCon at this week's meeting, since next week with a (theoretically) much-less-hosed stickster is likely to be a better time for that.
20:56:56 <rbergeron> Which I think is good stuff to have, it shows that users are being listened to, and that we understand their needs, etc.
20:57:09 <rbergeron> The Second Thing:
20:57:33 <rbergeron> On a much higher level, there is a lot of market research out there that can be used, but presumably, a lot of it must be _bought_, which makes it hard for Fedora to make use of it
20:57:49 <rbergeron> without having legal agreements from hell involving RH, and whhoever is selling the research.
20:58:12 <mchua> #info Market research thing-we-could-do #1: "users want X, we delivered Y% of this" feedback loop with engineering - gauging user needs.
20:58:14 <rbergeron> So it would be nice to see maybe some community-style research out there that not only fedora people can use, but maybe also people in general that are developing open-source projects.
20:58:19 <mchua> ...oooh.
20:58:47 * mchua is reminded of http://www.hackabilityblog.com/2009/08/open-source-speech-recognition/
20:58:55 <rbergeron> That's kind of an out-there thing, but I think a lot of times it could actually be useful. Not just for us but... fostering the whole community of OSS in general.
20:59:03 <mchua> rbergeron: That sounds like a much bigger project than the first.
20:59:07 <rbergeron> It would be nice to know things like:
20:59:33 <rbergeron> - who is downloading fedora. where are they from. what is it going on (platforms). what industries are they in. where do we see gaping demographical holes.
20:59:34 <rbergeron> etc.
20:59:51 <mchua> #info Market research thing-we-could-do #2: start an open source market research repository (if no such thing exists)
20:59:54 <rbergeron> what is the size of the market.
21:00:04 <rbergeron> etc.
21:00:11 <mchua> rbergeron: That's something that Red Hat's Marketing folks might be able to tell us / help with / be ridiculously interested in, I would guess.
21:00:18 <rbergeron> right.
21:00:31 <mchua> (though quaid probably has a better sense of that than I do.)
21:00:53 <rbergeron> and I have this more clearly defined on my computer. and I could go on and on, but I have to run... my time is up :\
21:00:53 * mchua notes that time is running out
21:00:57 <mchua> rbergeron: :)
21:01:06 <rbergeron> more soon :)
21:01:24 <mchua> rbergeron: Ok! Looking forward to the more soon, then! Thanks for taking this on!
21:01:32 <mchua> open floor time!
21:01:36 <mchua> #topic open floor
21:01:54 <mchua> I didn't get the sense that there was anything else that folks wanted to discuss, but just in case...
21:01:59 * nirik will note that anyone who wants to teach a fedora irc class should sign up to do so. ;)
21:02:22 <mchua> nirik: Yup, we're going to do a Marketing class when Sean Daly gets back from vacation :) it's just taken a while
21:02:37 <nirik> excellent. ;) We need teachers...
21:02:38 <mchua> #action mchua to ping SeanDaly on Fedora Classroom class on Marketing again; I think he might be back this week or next
21:02:47 <mchua> Anything else?
21:02:57 <mchua> meeting ending in 5...
21:03:19 * mchua makes mental note to open with other-people-have-the-floor topics next time, I've been too much a monologuer and slack on the clock this week and last
21:03:20 <mchua> 4...
21:03:24 <mchua> ianweller: jetpacks!
21:03:26 <mchua> 3...
21:03:29 * mchua dons jetpack
21:03:32 <mchua> 2...
21:03:34 * mchua dons helmet
21:03:36 <mchua> 1...
21:03:38 * mchua blasts off
21:03:39 <mchua> #endmeeting