12:54:48 <jwf> #startmeeting State of Fedora - 2017 Edition
12:54:48 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug 29 12:54:48 2017 UTC.  The chair is jwf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:54:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
12:54:48 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'state_of_fedora_-_2017_edition'
12:54:50 <jwf> #meetingname flock2017
12:54:50 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'flock2017'
12:54:52 <jwf> #topic Introduction
12:54:54 <jwf> #info Presented by Fedora Project Leader, mattdm
12:54:56 <jwf> #topic Looking back on last few releases
12:55:00 <jwf> #info Good PR on last few releases
12:55:08 <jwf> #info Continuing trends for last few releases from F25 - F26
12:55:18 <jwf> #topic What about previous years?
12:55:24 <jwf> #undo
12:55:24 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x4eeba290>
12:55:44 <jwf> #info Not natural state of Fedora that everything is awesome - done a lot of hard work to make it happen
12:55:57 <jwf> #topic Mirror statistics
12:56:05 <jwf> #info Fedora update server connections (daily by IP)
12:56:19 <jwf> #info Many caveats, but good for comparing release to release even if not completely representative
12:56:50 <jwf> #info Steady growth since F20, with F25 very high on charts, and as of this last week, F26 just crossed over the F25 update server connections
12:57:01 <jwf> #info 40 days for this to happen, record for Fedora upgrades
12:57:37 <jwf> #info Disclaimer, again: We don't do invasive tracking so these metrics are very approximate and tough to draw decisive conclusions from this data
12:59:26 <jwf> #topic Why are we doing crazy things this time around?
12:59:45 <jwf> #info Longer release cycles not to make longer release times only, lot of new type of work going into releases
12:59:55 <jwf> #info === Geologic Eras of Fedora ===
13:00:19 <jwf> #info F19-F15: Numbers went down, in wrong direction; many new changes in OS
13:00:33 <jwf> #info systemd, GNOME3, DNF, anaconda rewrite, etc.
13:00:58 <jwf> #info Fedora.next: Helped make some of the things that made Fedora as awesome as it is today; numbers indicate growth starting from that time or so
13:01:41 <jwf> #info 32bit systems: Around F20/F21, numbers dipped and instead of upgrading, just went away; only have observational data
13:02:03 <jwf> #info Last year: Neither growth or decline, just flat… concerning?
13:02:40 <jwf> Hope it's a new level
13:02:56 <jwf> #topic Fedora Mirror + Connectivity Checks
13:03:37 <jwf> #info Different type of metric: hotspot check-ins; every five minutes, make check to make sure they're not behind a captive portal where you need to log in with a public hotspot; hits specific URL on Fedora servers; we count the number of times people hit that
13:03:47 <jwf> #info Not form of tracking; we just see people hitting that URL
13:03:59 <jwf> #info Roughly ~90,000 systems every day
13:04:31 <jwf> #info Given that laptops might be on everyday; servers don't do this; not every spin will or people might have changed it / turned it off; so there are caveats again
13:04:42 <jwf> #undo
13:04:43 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by jwf at 13:04:31 : Given that laptops might be on everyday; servers don't do this; not every spin will or people might have changed it / turned it off; so there are caveats again
13:04:43 <jwf> #undo
13:04:43 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by jwf at 13:03:59 : Roughly ~90,000 systems every day
13:04:50 <jwf> #info Roughly ~500,000 systems every day
13:04:54 <jwf> ^ hope I caught that right
13:04:56 <jwf> #info Given that laptops might be on everyday; servers don't do this; not every spin will or people might have changed it / turned it off; so there are caveats again
13:05:14 <jwf> #info StackOverflow survey: ~20% developers using Linux as primary OS for development
13:05:47 <cverna> thanks jwf for the live feed ;)
13:06:09 <jwf> #info We reached a plateau; we should be growing to have the impact we want to have; maybe fires necessary to continue growth instead of flatline we're at now, even if it's a current record? Want to continue trends, not just hold line
13:06:13 <jwf> cverna: No problem :)
13:06:28 <jwf> #topic The innovator adoption curve
13:07:03 <jwf> #info Innovators => Early Adopters < > Early Majority => Late Majority => Laggards / Long Tail
13:07:22 <jwf> #info Fedora lives in the Innovators / Early Adopters space
13:07:38 <jwf> #info Fedora isn't just the bleeding edge (let's cross that off the list of ways we describe Fedora)
13:07:56 <jwf> #info We don't want to be too far ahead because we want people to actually use Fedora; we want people to use it in their life, we want to be leading, but not totally bleeding
13:08:29 <jwf> #info Can't say: "We invented Fedora" and 14 years later, doing the same thing
13:08:35 <jwf> #info Have to innovate to stay relevant
13:09:02 <jwf> #info See: Raspbian, CoreOS Container Linux, Solus, ArchLinux (really bleeding edge with awesome docs), lots and lots of change going on in the Linux desktop right now
13:09:09 <jwf> #info Pushing the innovation curve for things we need to keep up with
13:09:38 <jwf> #info Lot of people use Fedora because our downstreams too slow: trade-offs about RHEL / CentOS; need newer versions to do things
13:10:06 <jwf> #info Red Hat tries to solve this problem with software collections with newer things; so, tl;dr: we can't say we're special just because we package things faster
13:11:14 <jwf> #topic How can we scale this change up?
13:11:31 <jwf> #info Using infrastructure that was meant for lower thousands of packages but we have 17,000+ packages
13:12:01 <jwf> #info Our "Fedora machine" isn't always keeping up with some of the change that we're growing with
13:12:08 <jwf> #info Need to find ways to automate what we're doing with Fedora
13:12:19 <jwf> #info Big, awesome changes that will get us to where we need to go to keep growing Fedora
13:12:57 <jwf> #info "Why do we keep blowing things up when we have infra that does what we need for Rust?" Example of this is that it's our baseline, Rust upstream not super interested in packages, other things we need to do to keep up
13:13:06 <jwf> #topic What's happening at Flock on these things this year?
13:13:10 <jwf> #info === Project Atomic ===
13:13:23 <jwf> #info Every change is tested as a light QA environment
13:13:40 <jwf> #info Generally testing will happen with basic pass/fail
13:14:08 <jwf> #info Continuous integration: Every change is run through robotic, automatic testing and if it breaks something, you're told about it right away, and bad changes are rejected
13:14:16 <jwf> #info "Sorry, pls fix before pushing to Fedora thx"
13:14:49 <jwf> #info What we have now with Atomic: (1) Build; (2) Test; (3) Release; (4) Present
13:15:04 <jwf> #info WhatWeHaveNow.jpg (see slides for pretty graphs)
13:15:27 <jwf> #info Atomic_Host_CI_CD_diagram.png (see slides for pretty graphs)
13:15:53 <jwf> #info tl;dr: More automation and help us move things faster and scale up because we're working together with the robots instead of fighting them
13:16:00 <jwf> #info === Modularity ===
13:16:13 <jwf> #info Taking comps groups and making them super-comps groups
13:16:43 <jwf> #info example: Not just install a web server, but install a web server environment; could install in different environments and builds in different platforms
13:16:57 <jwf> #info Modularity_pipeline.png (see slides for pretty graphs)
13:17:11 <jwf> #info Working on infrastructure to automate creation and testing of modules
13:17:23 <jwf> #topic EPEL / Fedors OS update server connections
13:17:33 <jwf> #info Earlier, said half a million people use Fedora, but not limit of our impact
13:17:49 <jwf> #info EPEL: Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux; things we take and package for RHEL / CentOS and make available for those
13:18:16 <jwf> #info Started exceeding popularity of Fedora connections and is off the charts, literally; somewhere around 1250k connections (daily????)
13:19:02 <jwf> #info 10 year commitments for packaging (oof); modularity helps make packages available for audience and people who need them without making ten year commitments to packaging and with Fedora maintenance
13:19:13 <jwf> #info Have thing you want moving fast at the speed you need ity
13:19:15 <jwf> #undo
13:19:15 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by jwf at 13:19:13 : Have thing you want moving fast at the speed you need ity
13:19:16 <jwf> #info Have thing you want moving fast at the speed you need it
13:20:01 <jwf> #info Remember CentOS and RHEL are downstream, which is also including part of our impact; but we still want to grow Fedora
13:20:10 <jwf> #topic Proposal: Ambassadors and Fedora strategy
13:20:40 <jwf> #info Proposal for how we spend Fedora money and efforts in where we show Fedora to the world
13:20:57 <jwf> #info Traditionally, go to Linux confs / shows, talk with people, which is good… but impact is not gigantic
13:21:23 <jwf> #info At Linux confs, people know what Fedora is, and people usually pretty set in their ways
13:21:34 <jwf> #info Would like people to focus on new things this year and help make a difference on the future of Fedora
13:21:53 <jwf> #info Council asked this before, but people asked what we should promote and do; thus, proposal
13:22:26 <jwf> #info When we want to spend money on Fedora events, we want to spend money directly related to Fedora objectives and mission statement
13:22:52 <jwf> #info Objective leads: Identified area that we think is important for Fedora, lead helps drives forward efforts on the initiative
13:23:03 <jwf> #info Want to empower people working on the initiatives with the support they need
13:23:17 <jwf> #info We should do things that directly support these objectives
13:24:01 <jwf> #info Go to automation confs! Go to where people using slow-moving distros are with modularity! Go to container / container orchestration confs! Go to developer conferences and tell people why they should use Fedora instead of Linux conferences.
13:25:03 <jwf> #topic Recap: What's the tl;dr?
13:25:35 <jwf> #info We've been growing for a while, but we're at a plateau; let's set (good) fires to keep growing and continue the past trends of the last few releases and break the plateau
13:26:09 <jwf> #topic Fedora contributor statistics
13:26:22 <jwf> #info Things counted: Editing wiki pages, getting badges, pushing packages, etc.
13:26:39 <jwf> #info Not counted: Going to events, organizing Flock, writing for Fedora Magazine, etc.
13:27:06 <jwf> #info Counted as active: Quarter of the weeks in the year
13:27:25 <jwf> #info Divided into old school / intermediate / new contributors / all contributors including less active
13:27:41 <jwf> #info 250 people every week who are showing up working on Fedora; lots of people!
13:27:53 <jwf> #info Intermediate / new users: First active just this year but at least 13 weeks this year
13:28:03 <jwf> #info Good influx of new contributors and flow into intermediate contributors
13:28:39 <jwf> #chair jwf|phone
13:28:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: jwf jwf|phone
13:28:42 <x3mboy> Flock notes?
13:28:50 <jwf> x3mboy: State of the Fedora by mattdm :)
13:29:06 <x3mboy> Ok, cool
13:29:15 <jwf> #info We'd like to see this graph going up; probably can't handle **exponential growth**, but an upward growth would be nice to see and would be maintainable
13:29:35 <jwf> #topic Everything is on fire?
13:29:47 <jwf> #info Yeah, but that's how it should be. We just want the fires to be in a good way
13:30:07 <jwf> #info This Flock is focused on doing things; let's find things this Flock that are on fire in a bad way and work on changing the direction there
13:30:13 <jwf> #info Figure out where problems are, get them solved
13:30:22 <jwf> #info Explore automation to make next generation of Fedora be awesome
13:30:27 <jwf> *applause*
13:30:37 <jwf> #topic Q&A
13:31:10 <jwf> #info Q: "With metadata for updates, if you use containers, what is counted?"
13:32:04 <jwf> #info A: If you use DNF to upgrade system, there's metadata that describes updates available; gigantic blob of 100s of MBs of data; modularity has its own data; if have small container like a web server, your metadata is way bigger than container itself, which is crazy; but I don't know what we're doing with that, DNF team might understand
13:32:24 <jwf> #info Q, clarification: Hitting mirrors, are containers hitting mirrors more often and influencing stats?
13:32:58 <jwf> #info A: Since coming from single IP address, only counted once, just like if you `sudo dnf upgrade`, only counted once
13:33:03 <jwf> #undo
13:33:03 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by jwf at 13:32:58 : A: Since coming from single IP address, only counted once, just like if you `sudo dnf upgrade`, only counted once
13:33:09 <jwf> #info A: Since coming from single IP address, only counted once, just like if you `sudo dnf upgrade`, only counted once; but maybe we should?!?
13:36:10 <jwf> #info Q: Do we have a world map of users from IP data?
13:36:56 <jwf> #info A: No, and also a dinosaur (myth) of this data; with low-cost broadband connections are underrepresented in our data, so might be lots of Fedora in some regions of world, but a world map would not represent this well
13:48:10 <jwf> #endmeeting