15:27:01 <brainycmurf> #startmeeting Workstation WG (2023-10-31) 15:27:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov 1 15:27:01 2023 UTC. 15:27:01 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location. 15:27:01 <zodbot> The chair is brainycmurf. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions. 15:27:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:27:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg_(2023-10-31)' 15:27:01 <brainycmurf> #meetingname workstation 15:27:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation' 15:27:01 <brainycmurf> #chair Allan 15:27:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: Allan brainycmurf 15:27:01 <brainycmurf> #info Present members: Allan, Kalev, Chris, Owen, Jens, Michael, Tomas, Neal, Matthias 15:27:01 <brainycmurf> #info Guests: Niels De Graef, Olivier Fourdan, Carlos Soriano 15:27:02 <brainycmurf> #info Regrets: 15:27:04 <brainycmurf> #info Missing: 15:27:06 <brainycmurf> #info Secretary: Neal 15:27:08 <brainycmurf> #topic Evaluate our X11 session offering 15:27:10 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 15:27:12 <brainycmurf> Allan: key question - what are the benefits and consequences to removing X11 session in some fashion? 15:27:15 <brainycmurf> Carlos: Olivier and Niels give some information on the key gaps between X11 and Wayland 15:27:17 <brainycmurf> * NVIDIA driver support. NVIDIA's driver public docs state support for Wayland, the main issue we've seen upstream is around gltiches, most likely due to lack of explicit sync support in some of the infrastructure. Progress is being made on this upstream, but there are no promises on the time frame on this. 15:27:21 <brainycmurf> * Neal: with recent Nouveau changes the WG would be open to relying on Nouveau for NVIDIA hardware. However, Cuda support is a concern. 15:27:24 <brainycmurf> * Carlos: Nouveau is good for the out of the box experience but won't give the full performance, which is what people with NVIDIA hardware often want. He wouldn't recommend relying on nouveau alone in the short to medium term. 15:27:28 <brainycmurf> * Matthias: indications are that Nouveau isn't a viable path for Cuda. 15:27:32 <brainycmurf> Michael: feedback we received in GNOME about the proposed X11 removal mentioned the following issues: DRM leasing, VRR, screen tearing, remote desktop, color management 15:27:35 <brainycmurf> Olivier: DRM leasing is supported in Xwayland, but there is a block around accepting the portal API in GNOME? 15:27:38 <brainycmurf> There is an MR for VRR: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1154 15:27:40 <brainycmurf> Michael: it's a fairly small set of gaps that users are complaining about. 15:27:42 <brainycmurf> Allan: what's the graphics team's view on removing the X11 session in Fedora? Would removing it make life easier/harder for them? 15:27:45 <brainycmurf> Carlos and Olivier: removing the session somehow is unlikely to impact the team greatly. However, they recommend that Fedora keeps X11 as a fallback in the short term - for potential unforeseen use cases or feature gaps with Wayland. This needn't be automatic or exposed in the UI, but could be accessed through the CLI. 15:27:49 <brainycmurf> Niels: accessibility is another consideration where an X11 fallback might be necessary. There are lots of different kinds of accessibility. 15:27:52 <brainycmurf> Main a11y issue with Wayland is global keybindings - needed by Orca. There is a plan for that. 15:27:54 <brainycmurf> Michael: there are two GNOME MRs currently: one to remove the X11 configuration file, which is likely to land soon. Another removes X11 code. gnome-session is maintained by Carlos Garnacho and Ray Strode, so they're the ones to talk to. 15:27:58 <brainycmurf> Michael: the configuration file removal seems like a reasonable approach. 15:28:02 <brainycmurf> Neal: there's a danger that by keeping the X11 session around, Wayland never becomes feature complete. It's only when we remove X11 that we get actually useful feedback from people. 15:28:05 <brainycmurf> Carlos: other things for the WG to consider - gaps around proprietary apps, certification for OpenJDK in Wayland (project Wakefield - https://wiki.openjdk.org/display/wakefield/ ), remote desktop, some considerations around CI 15:28:09 <brainycmurf> Neal: Generally observe that Wayland in CI uses Weston, could also have a simple wlroots compositor that supports all the Wayland protocols Weston doesn't have for CI purposes to replace Xephyr. 15:28:11 <brainycmurf> #topic NVIDIA driver and UEFI secure boot 15:28:13 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/155 15:28:15 <brainycmurf> Background from last week: https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/155#comment-880295 15:28:18 <brainycmurf> NVIDIA proprietary driver can be installed through GNOME Software. However, it's not expected to work - if secure boot is enabled, you will get broken graphics and nouveau will be blacklisted. It will only work if secure boot is disabled. 15:28:21 <brainycmurf> Michael is in favour of removing the NVIDIA driver from Software. Other WG members would prefer to fix the problem. Ubuntu presents the user with instructions for how to use UEFI settings to enroll keys that will allow the driver to work. We don't have that in Fedora and no one is working on it. Neal wanted the key enrollment to be automatic, but that's not likely to be implemented - there's opposition from kernel 15:28:27 <brainycmurf> maintainers. 15:28:28 <brainycmurf> Carlos/Olivier/Niels: no big suggestions 15:28:33 <brainycmurf> Ubuntu has tooling to automatically enroll the key as part of installation. 15:28:35 <brainycmurf> Neal: one issue is that we don't have a UI for managing UEFI stuff. We also don't know how it works - no one has documented it. 15:28:38 <brainycmurf> Olivier: it is made harder by the fact that the NVIDIA driver is propriety - we don't package it, we don't ship it. 15:28:41 <brainycmurf> Matthias: maybe we could improve the fallback situation - that's something we could do. (Carlos agrees.) 15:28:44 <brainycmurf> Allan: we could have Software detect if secure boot is off and have it adjust accordingly (show a warning, prevent driver installation). Michael: we assume that secure boot is on and should design for that. 15:28:47 <brainycmurf> #topic f39 status 15:28:49 <brainycmurf> #link https://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/milestone/39/final/buglist 15:28:51 <brainycmurf> The current state of things is such that all Workstation-centric bugs have been resolved. The remaining bugs are Fedora Server specific and Fedora ARM (Raspberry Pi) specific. We just have to wait now. 15:28:54 <brainycmurf> #topic Include usbguard by default 15:28:56 <brainycmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/401 15:28:58 <brainycmurf> Deferred 15:29:02 <brainycmurf> #topic Announcements and status updates 15:29:04 <brainycmurf> Ubuntu summit is happening this week. Matthias will be there. 15:29:06 <brainycmurf> Kalev: GNOME 45.1 is prepared and submitted to Bohdi. adamw is OK with putting it through the freeze process. 15:29:09 <brainycmurf> Working group members are reporting that they're not seeing video feeds with meet.opensuse.org. Allan will open an issue to investigate alternatives. 15:29:12 <brainycmurf> Minutes from last week: 15:29:14 <brainycmurf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2023-10-25/workstation.2023-10-25-21.48.log.html 15:29:17 <brainycmurf> #endmeeting