14:04:37 <ignatenkobrain> #startmeeting FESCO (2020-06-24)
14:04:37 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 24 14:04:37 2020 UTC.
14:04:37 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
14:04:37 <zodbot> The chair is ignatenkobrain. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:04:37 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:04:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco_(2020-06-24)'
14:04:41 <ignatenkobrain> #meetingname fesco
14:04:41 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
14:04:44 <zbyszek> .hello2
14:04:44 <zodbot> zbyszek: zbyszek 'Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek' <zbyszek@in.waw.pl>
14:04:46 <ignatenkobrain> #chair nirik, ignatenkobrain, decathorpe, zbyszek, sgallagh, mhroncok, dcantrell, cverna, Conan_Kudo, Pharaoh_Atem, Son_Goku, King_InuYasha, Sir_Gallantmon, Eighth_Doctor
14:04:46 <zodbot> Current chairs: Conan_Kudo Eighth_Doctor King_InuYasha Pharaoh_Atem Sir_Gallantmon Son_Goku cverna dcantrell decathorpe ignatenkobrain mhroncok nirik sgallagh zbyszek
14:04:50 <ignatenkobrain> #topic init process
14:04:54 <sgallagh> .hello2
14:04:55 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
14:05:01 <dcantrell> .hello2
14:05:01 <zodbot> dcantrell: dcantrell 'David Cantrell' <dcantrell@redhat.com>
14:05:02 <Son_Goku> .hello ngompa
14:05:04 <nirik> morning
14:05:06 <mhroncok> .hello churchyard
14:05:06 <zodbot> Son_Goku: ngompa 'Neal Gompa' <ngompa13@gmail.com>
14:05:09 <zodbot> mhroncok: churchyard 'Miro Hrončok' <mhroncok@redhat.com>
14:05:13 <cverna> hello
14:05:20 <Son_Goku> morning y'all
14:05:33 <zbyszek> These Doctor, King, and Goku guys, how many votes do they get? :/
14:05:43 * Son_Goku laughs
14:06:05 <Son_Goku> don't worry, it's just the one for me ;)
14:06:26 <ignatenkobrain> lol
14:06:29 <bcotton> the Neal Trinity
14:06:38 <ignatenkobrain> are those all or there are more?
14:06:45 <Son_Goku> those five are the main ones
14:06:51 <Son_Goku> there are more, I just don't pull them out very often
14:06:53 <ignatenkobrain> I guess let's start :)
14:07:07 <ignatenkobrain> #topic #2409 F33 System-Wide Change: CompilerPolicy Change
14:07:09 <ignatenkobrain> .fesco 2409
14:07:11 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: Issue #2409: F33 System-Wide Change: CompilerPolicy Change - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2409
14:07:43 * nirik was +1 in ticket.
14:07:50 <law_> i'm here to answer any questions y'all may have
14:07:55 <nirik> I guess guidelines need updating?
14:07:58 <Son_Goku> I remain -1 as it stands
14:07:59 <ignatenkobrain> this got -1 from Conan_Kudo Son_Goku and other nicknames :)
14:08:19 <mhroncok> "I think it's marginally fair that some semblance of a proposed text would be useful for approving or declining the change."
14:08:36 <Son_Goku> yup
14:08:44 <mhroncok> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Changes/CompilerPolicy&action=history indicates the proposal was not updated
14:08:54 <sgallagh> I'm with Son_Goku here. I think the Change makes sense, but I would like to see the exact changes requested
14:09:37 <ignatenkobrain> since law_ is here, can we tell what exactly we would like to see happening?
14:10:40 <Son_Goku> law_, so I'm not going to go so far as to say I want a PR to the guidelines for us to review, but I'd like some kind of draft wording that describes what you want the policy to be
14:10:50 <decathorpe> hey guys, sorry for being late, I just got home this second
14:11:15 <Son_Goku> PRs are obviously welcome, but it's hard for me to properly judge this Change unless I understand _what_ the change will be
14:11:38 <zbyszek> Actually, why not ask directly for a PR? Doing the work once in free-form and then second time in markdown would be probably more work than just the second.
14:11:41 <law_> that's fair and not unexpected.  I'm happy to provide a proposed change as a PR
14:11:53 <sgallagh> law_++
14:11:57 <Son_Goku> law++
14:11:58 <sgallagh> law++
14:11:58 <zodbot> sgallagh: Karma for law changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:12:04 <Son_Goku> blech
14:12:10 <Conan_Kudo> law++
14:12:12 <zodbot> Conan_Kudo: Karma for law changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:12:14 <dcantrell> law++
14:12:15 <zodbot> dcantrell: Karma for law changed to 3 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:12:17 <bcotton> law++
14:12:17 <zodbot> bcotton: Karma for law changed to 4 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:12:38 <Son_Goku> zbyszek, I didn't want to turn it into "you need to have implementation before implementing" catch-22
14:12:46 <ignatenkobrain> #action law to propose PR for the Packaging Guidelines and we will vote again once that ready.
14:12:55 <Son_Goku> I didn't really know how to draw the line for policy-only changes like this
14:12:56 <ignatenkobrain> #topic #2390 Request to permit module default streams in ELN
14:13:07 <ignatenkobrain> .fesco 2390
14:13:08 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: Issue #2390: Request to permit module default streams in ELN - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2390
14:13:34 <mhroncok> for this one, I have several questions
14:13:50 <dcantrell> I have been reading through the PR and the ongoing thread, but I'm not ready to vote yet
14:13:54 <dcantrell> want to get through all of it
14:14:03 <sgallagh> As discussion is still ongoing in the ticket, do we want to continue here or should we finish that up in the ticket first?
14:14:24 <Son_Goku> we should probably punt and let the discussion in the ticket flesh itself out
14:14:28 <nirik> yeah, I haven't read up on this this morning and I see there was a flurry of activity
14:14:28 <mhroncok> can we ack that it won't "just be allowed" but there will be some set of rules / a policy (this is AFAIK the current idea behind the docs PR, but I wanted to say it explicitly)
14:14:43 <sgallagh> Yeah, sorry that I wasn't able to get back to it until last night
14:14:51 <Son_Goku> sgallagh, no worries
14:15:07 <Son_Goku> as it stands, I lean towards +1, but I do still have some concerns that I'd like to have ironed out
14:15:20 <ignatenkobrain> myself I put a list here - https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/modularity/pull-request/83#comment-123305 with those things in mind I would be +1
14:15:29 <nirik> mhroncok: that sounds like where it was going, but do we need to decide that now?
14:15:46 <mhroncok> we don't, it was just an idea
14:16:53 <ignatenkobrain> sgallagh: so what about we finish discussion in that PR and you update request with all new details and we vote on it once ready?
14:16:54 <sgallagh> I suggest that FESCo should vote to accept or deny the policy once we iron it out in the doc PR and that will answer this ticket.
14:17:12 <sgallagh> ignatenkobrain: I think we're on the same page here
14:17:21 <dcantrell> sgallagh++
14:17:58 <sgallagh> I'm hoping to do another draft later today, but as there are active topics of discussion, I've been waiting for a resolution to those.
14:18:02 <ignatenkobrain> #action everyone is welcome to comment on modularity PR#83, once the discussion will be over there - sgallagh will update requiest and notify FESCo
14:18:03 <mhroncok> I'd also like to not leave the entire community out of this, but to bring in the discussion to devel
14:18:21 <zbyszek> sgallagh: that's great news (re "on the same page").
14:18:55 <Son_Goku> mhroncok, I'd like to give them some time to flesh things out before pushing it to devel@
14:19:05 <Son_Goku> otherwise it's going to be hard to consolidate and iterate on feedback
14:19:08 <sgallagh> zbyszek: I was specifically referring to the proposal of having FESCo vote to accept the policy draft, but I also do think that we're coming to a compromise we can be content with
14:19:16 <mhroncok> ok, but once it is fleshed out, I'd like this to go trough devel and not just fesco tickets
14:19:28 <ignatenkobrain> mhroncok: that's a valid concern..
14:19:36 <sgallagh> mhroncok: Once it's fleshed out, I can submit it as a Self-Contained Change, if you like
14:19:42 <ignatenkobrain> though I am not sure if that will result into something meaningful :)
14:19:45 <sgallagh> For ELN
14:19:53 <Son_Goku> sgallagh, I think that's acceptable
14:20:03 <nirik> +1
14:20:04 <mhroncok> sgallagh: I wasn't going to "require" this, but I would certainly appreciate that, thanks
14:20:04 <ignatenkobrain> sgallagh: yeah, that probably would be the best... so it follows our standard processes
14:20:04 <Son_Goku> we can also approve it essentially out of band since ELN rolls
14:20:09 <mhroncok> sgallagh++
14:20:09 <zodbot> mhroncok: Karma for sgallagh changed to 7 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:20:36 <ignatenkobrain> #action sgallagh to submit Self-Contained Change Proposal once ready
14:20:45 <ignatenkobrain> #topic #2407 Find a new meeting time slot
14:20:49 <ignatenkobrain> .fesco 2407
14:20:50 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: Issue #2407: Find a new meeting time slot - fesco - Pagure.io - https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2407
14:20:53 <Son_Goku> ugh
14:20:54 * sgallagh looks around.
14:21:03 <ignatenkobrain> so I put this here to discuss again because of Council conflict
14:21:11 <sgallagh> Here's one! ;-)
14:21:21 <Son_Goku> ugh
14:21:25 <dcantrell> yes, please
14:21:30 <dcantrell> I am also in the council meeting right now
14:21:30 <sgallagh> Given all the trouble we had to locate this slot, I am disinclined to move it.
14:21:40 <sgallagh> I realize this is inconvenient for folks attending both meetings
14:21:43 <Son_Goku> I can only really move this an hour earlier, and that's about it
14:21:59 <dcantrell> an hour earlier is fine
14:22:02 <Son_Goku> and that's mildly inconvenient for me, but I can try to work with that
14:22:02 <mhroncok> how likely is it to move the council one instead?
14:22:17 <mhroncok> 1 hour earlier is a killer for nirik IMHO
14:22:17 <ignatenkobrain> hour earlier or hour later is fine for me ftr
14:22:26 <cverna> 1 hour earlier is crazy early for nirik
14:22:29 <Son_Goku> yeah
14:22:29 <cverna> yeah ^^
14:22:34 <dcantrell> ok, one hour later is fine
14:22:37 <dcantrell> or even another day
14:22:49 <sgallagh> This isn't all that helpful
14:22:49 <Son_Goku> I can't do one hour later, since it collides with $dayjob
14:22:50 <dcantrell> I can't effectively be in two meetings concurrently
14:23:02 <sgallagh> We did the WhenIsGood thing and this was all we had in common
14:23:06 <cverna> the council meeting is only fortnightly correct ?
14:23:06 <ignatenkobrain> zbyszek: got a link handy with previous results?
14:23:17 <sgallagh> dcantrell: I can rarely be effective in ONE meeting, so you're still ahead of me :)
14:23:18 <zbyszek> https://whenisgood.net/f2hzskx/results/gbhh7ba
14:23:23 * nirik and cverna also have another meeting right after this (well, in 40min)
14:23:23 <nirik> an hour earlier is 6am for me... which would be... sad.
14:23:35 <bcotton> nirik: just don't go to bed. problem solved
14:24:01 <ignatenkobrain> bcotton++
14:24:01 <zodbot> ignatenkobrain: Karma for bcotton changed to 21 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:24:16 <ignatenkobrain> Son_Goku: mhroncok any chance you can do 5pm Wed?
14:24:22 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain: np
14:24:31 <Son_Goku> let me check, one sec
14:24:35 <sgallagh> ignatenkobrain: 5pm UTC?
14:24:49 <Son_Goku> yeah, I can do 1pm EDT
14:24:50 <ignatenkobrain> I think whenisgood writes time in UTC, so yes
14:24:59 <ignatenkobrain> Only Neal and Miro replied "no" to that time
14:25:05 * sgallagh nods
14:25:05 <zbyszek> I can't do 5 pm utc. Sorry.
14:25:06 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain: weird
14:25:20 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain: I can do that, sorry
14:25:22 <sgallagh> zbyszek: You replied you could in the WhenIsGood
14:25:31 <dcantrell> if it doesn't work it doesn't work, I was just hoping we could find another day maybe or something so I don't have two concurrent meetings
14:25:56 <Son_Goku> I can probably see if I can get a "skip" for the meeting overlapping with the 11am-12pm US/ET slot
14:26:00 <nirik> the eariler it is the less coherent I will likely be. ;)
14:26:10 <zbyszek> sgallagh: yeah, sorry, I didn't consider that I have something late evening.
14:26:11 * cverna proposes to cancel all the meetings :P
14:26:15 <Son_Goku> but as my daily standup at work is in there, that'd be hard :(
14:26:19 <ignatenkobrain> :D
14:26:38 <Son_Goku> but push comes to shove, I can probably do it
14:26:48 <ignatenkobrain> ok, what about to re-run whenisgood again and see? if we don't come up with new time that works for all of us, we will continue with this time.
14:26:51 <mhroncok> bcotton: how likely is it the council meeting would move because of fesco?
14:26:53 <nirik> dcantrell: send dcantrel to the other one. ;)
14:27:13 <ignatenkobrain> nirik: lool
14:27:14 <sgallagh> .fire nirik cloning is illegal
14:27:14 <zodbot> adamw fires nirik cloning is illegal
14:27:24 <bcotton> mhroncok: we could certainly ask. it also has historically suffered from "this is the only time we could find that works for us"
14:27:40 <Son_Goku> I can do one hour later if it fits for everyone else
14:27:48 <Son_Goku> I'll need to do some begging and pleading though :o
14:27:59 <Son_Goku> or otherwise bow out partway through sometimes
14:28:29 <nirik> well, an hour later cverna and I are in a team meeting... we can try and ask to move it, but it has a lot of people in it...
14:28:34 <Son_Goku> ugh
14:28:39 <Son_Goku> there's no winning, is there?
14:28:44 <nirik> alas
14:28:48 <mhroncok> time travel?
14:29:03 <Eleventh_Doctor> perhaps...
14:29:04 <mhroncok> lol
14:29:23 <Son_Goku> but alas, I don't have a TARDIS
14:29:38 <ignatenkobrain> Thirteenth_Doctor: no? :)
14:29:47 <Son_Goku> hah
14:29:58 <decathorpe> Would it help if we had alternating slots for even/odd weeks, I a way that everybody can at least attend every other meeting?
14:30:03 <Son_Goku> the Sixth, the Eighth, the Tenth, and the Eleventh were my favorites ;)
14:30:38 <Son_Goku> decathorpe, that's going to be murder for fedocal
14:30:58 <bcotton> the nice thing is that council meets every other week, so it's not always a conflict
14:31:16 <mhroncok> Son_Goku: there can be two meetings defined there, np imho
14:31:35 <ignatenkobrain> bcotton: then we don't need a full clone of dcantrell so it is only half-illegal :)
14:31:38 <sgallagh> FESCo could keep this slot but go to a fortnightly schedule
14:31:48 <sgallagh> So the opposite week from Council
14:31:57 <Son_Goku> eck, I don't know...
14:32:01 <sgallagh> It would also encourage us to handle things more often in the tickets
14:32:03 <Son_Goku> I like the weekly cadence
14:32:10 <zbyszek> yeah, I think the weekly meeting is good.
14:32:15 <bcotton> i worry that would be too infrequent, particularly starting about now-ish in the schedule when change proposals start coming in more heavily
14:32:26 <sgallagh> bcotton: Fair
14:32:32 <Son_Goku> yeah, there's big system wide changes happening almost every release now
14:32:43 <Son_Goku> and a lot of change proposals
14:32:56 <Son_Goku> not bad, but definitely a point for having these weekly :)
14:33:13 <ignatenkobrain> Proposal: Keep this time slot, run new whenisgood, if no other common match - ask council to reschedule their meeting to save dcantrell from cloning himself.
14:33:34 <zbyszek> What about moving the meeting even later, i.e. 20:00 or 21:00 utc?
14:33:35 <decathorpe> Igor Raits: +1 wfm
14:34:02 <zbyszek> I excluded times after 10pm CEST, but if nothing else works...
14:34:24 <mhroncok> zbyszek: wow. well, I could make it, but chances are I would be drunk :D
14:34:36 <zbyszek> ignatenkobrain: I don't think we need to run another whenisgood. People can just edit the current one.
14:34:40 <sgallagh> mhroncok: How is that different from the current slot? ;-)
14:34:48 <Son_Goku> I could make most, if not all of those times after 20:00 UTC (4pm EDT)
14:35:05 <Son_Goku> I'd have to check for sure, but my window is significantly more open after 4pm :)
14:35:21 * nirik is just fine with later. ;)
14:35:32 <mhroncok> sgallagh: currently I tend to start drinking during the meeting or after ;)
14:36:13 <decathorpe> mhroncok: I sympathize
14:36:14 <dcantrell> thanks, everyone.  I know finding a time is difficult
14:36:16 <cverna> after 20:00 UTC is probably to late here
14:36:21 <nirik> mhroncok: cheers! :)
14:36:54 * nirik looks for the link again
14:37:07 <mhroncok> nirik: we are not discussion modularity now, so I'll pass :D
14:37:10 <Son_Goku> mhroncok, sympathize as well
14:37:32 <cverna> if the meeting was 1 hour only I could probably do 19:00 UTC latest
14:37:53 <ignatenkobrain> I think we won't solve it here anyway :/
14:38:11 <mhroncok> technically the thing is that if the meeting is now, I can go do some evening things (like go have a beer with friends) later. if it is 20:00 UTC, I cannot. this is inconvenient, but not a hard blocker
14:38:11 <Son_Goku> I can do 3pm on Monday and Friday, but not Tuesday-Thursday
14:38:35 <mhroncok> it would be helpful to have yes-no-if need to be options in whenisgood
14:38:40 <mhroncok> doodle has this
14:38:47 * Son_Goku doesn't really want to do this again...
14:39:12 <mhroncok> proposal: ...
14:39:24 <mhroncok> we'll ask the council nicely to find another slot
14:39:25 <cverna> https://framadate.org/ supports maybe
14:39:40 <mhroncok> we'll followup once we know if that is possible.
14:39:43 <Son_Goku> could we ask council first before we go through this headache again?
14:40:08 <zbyszek> mhroncok: +1
14:40:12 <ignatenkobrain> mhroncok: +1
14:40:18 <Son_Goku> mhroncok: +1
14:40:24 <dcantrell> mhroncok: +1
14:40:39 <mhroncok> bcotton, dcantrell: can either of you please ask the council?
14:40:46 <bcotton> i'll do it
14:40:49 <mhroncok> bcotton++
14:40:58 <dcantrell> bcotton: thanks
14:41:25 <ignatenkobrain> #action bcotton to ask Council about moving their meeting to another time.
14:41:28 <ignatenkobrain> #topic Next week's chair
14:41:48 <cverna> I can do it
14:41:57 <mhroncok> cverna++
14:41:57 <zodbot> mhroncok: Karma for cverna changed to 12 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:42:12 <ignatenkobrain> #action cverna will chair next meeting
14:42:20 <ignatenkobrain> #topic Open Floor
14:42:20 <cverna> do we have the script somewhere ?
14:42:53 <cverna> so that I can just copy paste stuff :P
14:43:07 <ignatenkobrain> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process
14:43:23 <cverna> cool thanks
14:43:50 <ignatenkobrain> anything for open floor? :)
14:43:57 * sgallagh has nothing today
14:44:03 * Son_Goku has nothing right now
14:44:22 <cverna> nothing here
14:44:25 <nirik> I could give a quick dc move update if folks like?
14:44:36 <ignatenkobrain> nirik: please :)
14:44:50 <Son_Goku> nirik: :D
14:45:42 <bcotton> nirik: good vibes only
14:46:22 <nirik> we moved to the new dc a few weeks ago now, all our old stuff from the old dc was shipped and has arrived in the new dc and been racked and cabled. We are now slowly adding capacity and things back. Builders first, then we will be adding redundency in places we didn't have it, then re-add non esential services back... and hopefully in by the end of july we will be all finally done with this thing. ;)
14:46:44 <sgallagh> \o/
14:46:48 <Son_Goku> nirik, any idea when Communishift will be back?
14:46:58 <bcotton> and then nirik and smooge will sleep for a month
14:47:01 <zbyszek> nirik: great news
14:47:25 <Son_Goku> bcotton, and smooge can stop reaching for the "medicine" cabinet :)
14:47:26 <nirik> Son_Goku: not sure still... but after this week we can get some attention back on it from networking and dc folks and try and move it forward.
14:47:40 <ignatenkobrain> nirik: do you know if builds are faster nowadays because less people / services use koji or because you've updated everything and such?
14:48:45 <nirik> ignatenkobrain: I think it's a combo... new DC we are using 10G networking in a lot of places, the new koji hubs are fedora 32, the database is now rhel8 / postgresql 12.2, builders are in faster/newer hardware (x86 anyhow)...
14:49:01 <nirik> oh, and we have storage we aren't sharing with anyone, so that might be faster too.
14:49:19 <nirik> now if I could just get kojira to behave. ;(
14:50:05 <ignatenkobrain> nirik:  ah, still slow 🙂 in our company we have 25G bond inside DC on servers.
14:50:15 <ignatenkobrain> nirik: kojira is PITA
14:50:17 <ignatenkobrain> anyhow, great job :)
14:50:39 <Son_Goku> I have my sympathies with nirik and smooge... been there, done that, don't want the t-shirt
14:50:57 <mhroncok> nirik: thank you
14:51:10 <Son_Goku> ignatenkobrain, kojira needs a ton of work... maybe someday
14:51:24 <Son_Goku> nirik, thanks for the awesome work you do on this :)
14:51:31 <ignatenkobrain> so if nothing else, I'll close this in 30 seconds :)
14:52:02 <mhroncok> ignatenkobrain++
14:52:09 <Conan_Kudo> ignatenkobrain++
14:52:09 <zodbot> Conan_Kudo: Karma for ignatenkobrain changed to 15 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:52:11 <mhroncok> bye
14:52:16 <nirik> thanks, it's a group effort... smooge especially deserves a ton of credit. ;)
14:52:17 <ignatenkobrain> #endmeeting