13:00:27 <mcatanzaro> #startmeeting Workstation WG
13:00:27 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Sep 30 13:00:27 2019 UTC.
13:00:27 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
13:00:27 <zodbot> The chair is mcatanzaro. Information about MeetBot at
13:00:27 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:00:27 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
13:00:30 <mcatanzaro> #meetingname workstation
13:00:30 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
13:00:34 <mcatanzaro> #topic Roll call
13:00:36 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
13:00:37 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <>
13:00:56 <petersen> .hello2
13:00:56 <cmurf> .hello chrismurphy
13:00:56 <zodbot> petersen: petersen 'Jens Petersen' <>
13:00:59 <zodbot> cmurf: Something blew up, please try again
13:01:12 <cmurf> .hello
13:01:12 <zodbot> cmurf: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
13:01:22 <cmurf> .hello2 chrismurphy
13:01:24 <zodbot> cmurf: Sorry, but you don't exist
13:01:31 <cmurf> haha
13:02:28 <petersen> cmurf: I think your first invocation ought to work
13:02:44 <cmurf> usually it does
13:02:49 <petersen> okay
13:02:53 <cmurf> maybe it's too early for zodbot
13:03:07 <petersen> yeah need coffee haha
13:04:47 <aday> .hello aday
13:04:47 <zodbot> aday: aday 'None' <>
13:04:48 <langdon> i just looked for this in #f-m-1 :/
13:05:06 <langdon> .hello2
13:05:07 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <>
13:05:14 * mcatanzaro running a bit behind
13:05:14 <aday> seems i exist, but i'm empty inside
13:05:30 <mcatanzaro> #chair cmurf petersen aday langdon
13:05:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf langdon mcatanzaro petersen
13:05:51 <mcatanzaro> One short of our new quorum of 6
13:05:59 <mcatanzaro> Somebody find somebody else :P
13:06:09 * cschalle hi
13:06:20 <mcatanzaro> #chair cschalle
13:06:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf cschalle langdon mcatanzaro petersen
13:06:24 <mcatanzaro> Excellent
13:06:30 <mcatanzaro> Give me a minute here...
13:09:16 <mcatanzaro> OK
13:09:20 <mcatanzaro> #topic Attendance
13:09:53 <mcatanzaro> Since we're still having trouble meeting quorum, I'd like to propose we do a little attendance tracking, at least for the next round of rotating chairs
13:10:14 <mcatanzaro> Present/Regrets/Missing, if you won't be able to attend, just tell the meeting chair so you can be marked as Regrets
13:10:33 <petersen> Good
13:10:35 <mcatanzaro> Sound good? Missing == bad and we can decide what to do on a case-by-case basis if a member is Missing too much. Regrets == not bad.
13:11:23 <mcatanzaro> I feel like we often have 3-4 Missing and that's rough for the operations of the WG.
13:11:33 <aday> it gets a bit tricky doing all this on a public mailing list
13:11:37 <cmurf> sounds reasonable
13:11:40 <aday> and not having a permanent chair
13:12:02 <aday> what happens if someone has a personal situation? who do they tell? where? how?
13:12:10 <cmurf> proxy voting seems reasonable
13:12:14 <mcatanzaro> I would tell the chair of the next meeting in a private mail
13:12:59 <cmurf> e.g. fesco votes in ticket all the time
13:13:24 <mcatanzaro> We do have a public schedule for rotating chairs. If you'll miss a bunch of meetings (e.g. otaylor going on paternity leave) then let the group know somehow. Any concerns?
13:13:39 <sgallagh> FESCo's policy is that decisions are finalized within two weeks of a proposal.
13:13:40 <aday> i don't know how i'd contact the group
13:13:44 <mcatanzaro> BTW I'm not so much worried about voting in tickets (which we aren't great at) as not having enough people present to discuss issues
13:14:02 <cmurf> quorum not required for discussion
13:14:05 <sgallagh> Seven days after the proposal, +3 votes in the tickets is enough to approve. Any -1 votes moves it to meeting agenda
13:14:34 <sgallagh> If there isn't +3 after 7 days, there must be +1 after 14 days or it's automatically rejected.
13:14:43 <mcatanzaro> sgallagh: You have a bigger firehose of issues than we do, though... we are a little less formal :)
13:14:58 <aday> voting on tickets is fine if the proposals are fully fleshed out. it's not suited to problem solving or consensus building
13:15:07 <petersen> true
13:15:08 <sgallagh> Sure, I just figured if you were looking for insipiration, I could give you the 30s description
13:15:26 <petersen> :)
13:15:26 <mcatanzaro> Problem solving and consensus building are a lot of what we do :)
13:16:10 <otaylor> .hello2
13:16:11 <zodbot> otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' <>
13:16:12 <otaylor> sorry to be late!
13:16:18 <mcatanzaro> #chair otaylor
13:16:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf cschalle langdon mcatanzaro otaylor petersen
13:16:35 <petersen> If we have an agenda page we could add Regrets there too
13:17:00 <mcatanzaro> aday: to contact the group... desktop@ list if you're OK with using that, or just tell any of us in a private mail otherwise
13:17:11 <mcatanzaro> We don't have an agenda page though
13:17:15 <petersen> nod
13:17:40 <petersen> I like mcatanzaro proposal, I think it is a good idea
13:17:43 <petersen> 's
13:18:07 <mcatanzaro> Anyway we could track it in the meeting reminders we send to the list, but maybe we don't need to advertise everyone's attendance on the public list
13:18:10 <petersen> Let's try it and we can adapt as needed
13:18:17 <mcatanzaro> So the other thing we could do is track it right before the endmeeting, in the IRC log
13:18:36 <cmurf> +1
13:18:37 <mcatanzaro> As long as we don't forget to do it, should work OK I think
13:18:58 <aday> it seems like an improvement, but i do feel that a permanent chair would help
13:19:09 <aday> and i'd be interested in us having our own channel/list
13:20:17 <cmurf> aday I think that's deskop@ list and #fedora-workstation channel
13:20:36 <aday> cmurf: i mean a private one
13:20:53 <cmurf> ahh ok
13:20:58 <aday> or does that qualify me for pitchforks?
13:21:11 <petersen> I don't see a lot of use for that
13:22:02 <otaylor> The private channel seems not very useful for me - 99% of chat should be public. A private list could be usefulfor adminstrative stuff - but maybe not worth the effort of setting it up?
13:22:35 <mcatanzaro> aday: Would you have reason to use a private list generally? It's very rare that I've needed to send private mails, and when needed I just add everyone to CC
13:23:05 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: would make sending regrets a lot easier, and maybe poeple would do better about it :-)
13:23:24 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: other than that, it's indeed pretty rare to need
13:23:41 <mcatanzaro> I'm OK with a private list, but someone else needs to set it up
13:24:15 <langdon> just 2 cents.. the last ~month has been a bit confusing for which meetings were on/off.. so may not be reflective
13:24:15 <aday> i think the reason for a dedicated channel/list are: 1. keeps the noise down on the public list 2. means that WG business doesn't get lost 4. shared knowledge that you might not want to be public (eg. "i've got a personal issue and will be missing the next 4 meetings")
13:24:16 <mcatanzaro> Also OK with a permanent chair, but someone else needs to volunteer. :D The reason we have a rotating chair is because Paul didn't want to be permanent chair anymore; no particular reason not to go back to permanent chair if someone wants to do it.
13:24:38 <aday> 4 > 3
13:25:07 <aday> it's likely to be a low traffic list, so i can understand the hesitation
13:26:17 <petersen> How about a ticket so we can reflect on it more?
13:26:18 <aday> in general i feel that the WG could do with a bit more... cohesion...? gravity...?
13:28:01 <aday> petersen: sounds like a good idea. better than us spending a whole meeting talking about mailing lists :)
13:28:13 <petersen> Cool
13:28:56 <mcatanzaro> petersen to create ticket to continue this discussion?
13:29:03 <petersen> lol okay
13:29:33 <otaylor> aday: Generally agree - not sure how to get there without finding a buried chest full of round tuits :-)
13:29:52 <petersen> aday: do you mean creating since it is your proposal?
13:30:02 <aday> petersen: sure
13:30:24 <mcatanzaro> #action aday to create a ticket to continue this discussion
13:30:41 <otaylor> aday: solid agenda in advance for every meeting would definitely help.
13:30:47 <petersen> My only concern is people thinking we are having secret discussions behind closed doors - dunno if any other WG or Stg meetings have something similar
13:31:04 <petersen> otaylor, aday: +1
13:31:26 <mcatanzaro> OK, six more things tagged with meeting... and four look important, so...
13:31:35 <mcatanzaro> This first one should be quick
13:31:37 <otaylor> petersen: we could call the mailing list workstation-wg-admin or something instead of -private if we wanted emphasize that it's not for secret discussions, but I guess it's also for secret discussions in the rare case any are necessary :-) ... but anyways, lets' get on with real business
13:31:43 <mcatanzaro> #topic Automatically install the OpenH264 codecs
13:31:46 <petersen> otaylor: sure
13:32:19 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: We missed you last meeting. :) What we need here to close the ticket is confirmation that your legal folks have approved this scheme we now have in place
13:32:43 <cschalle> ok, will add a comment to that effect
13:32:44 <mcatanzaro> That's all. There was some concern about that at the last WG meeting
13:32:49 <mcatanzaro> Oh actually that's not all, one more thing
13:33:23 <mcatanzaro> The license seems to say that we need to use the string "OpenH264 Video Codec provided by Cisco Systems, Inc."... somewhere... can you look into that too?
13:33:42 <mcatanzaro>
13:33:49 <cschalle> ok, will do
13:34:00 <mcatanzaro> Great, let's move on quickly since three more important items
13:34:16 <mcatanzaro> #action cschalle to comment in ticket and look into question about license terms
13:34:30 <mcatanzaro> #topic Workstation repos are not available for Branched and Rawhide
13:35:33 <mcatanzaro> The complaint is filed two weeks ago... three of the four repos in fedora-workstation-repositories don't exist yet for F31
13:36:01 <mcatanzaro> I asked mclasen to look into it since he is the package maintainer, but I'm not sure if he got around to it yet
13:36:16 <petersen>
13:36:18 <mcatanzaro> cschalle I remember you did a lot of work to get these repos up and running, is it something you could look into?
13:36:52 <cschalle> are rpmfusion in general already available for F31?
13:37:05 <cmurf> yes
13:37:32 <cschalle> ok, so I will ping and ask why the repos we depend on are not enabled yet then
13:37:55 <cschalle> what is the setup for coprs? are they attempted autobuilt for new Fedora releases?
13:38:28 <petersen> They can be configured that way
13:41:22 <mcatanzaro> #action cschalle to ping repo maintainers
13:42:17 <mcatanzaro> #topic Workstation x86_64 live image is over size target
13:42:38 <mcatanzaro> Thanks to petersen the new image is hopefully under the size target due to having removed one font package (I hope that was a nonessential font package)
13:43:15 <petersen> This now fixed
13:43:25 <mcatanzaro> Great. We probably still want to raise the size target at least a little bit? I'm sure we don't want to get into a situation where we're shrinking user help images to stay under target again ;)
13:43:36 <petersen> Yes - current size is 1930952704
13:44:01 <petersen> s/Yes//
13:44:09 <cmurf> that's a substantial drop
13:44:24 <petersen> Yea we removed the CJK serif font...
13:44:51 <petersen> (google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts iirc)
13:44:59 <petersen> Yes it is big
13:45:21 <mcatanzaro> Is it... not important to have a CJK serif font? That seems important?
13:45:23 <petersen> The Sans font is still there don't worry
13:45:37 <mcatanzaro> 0.2 GB is a lot indeed.
13:45:50 <petersen> Well hmm yeah it would be nice to have but I feel the price is quite heavy
13:46:21 <petersen> on F31 WS for CJK locales it gets auto-postinstalled by gnome-software
13:46:38 <petersen> Though not on SB
13:47:05 <petersen> Hopefully I don't get flamed hehe
13:47:16 <cmurf> I like this capability, auto-postinstallling of fonts
13:47:22 <petersen> Yes me too
13:48:15 <mcatanzaro> OK, I guess we can close this then. We have another 700 MB to fill before we have to worry about size target again
13:48:39 <petersen> I think the vast majority of Fedora users won't notice the missing font - we had only had it default installed for a few releases
13:49:01 <cmurf> 700M? I'm counting 70M
13:49:08 <petersen> Right - don't all rush at once please ;-)
13:50:09 <petersen> Just enough to vendor libpod into toolbox lol ;o)
13:50:31 <mcatanzaro> 70M yes :P
13:50:42 <cmurf> it's 164M installed
13:50:52 <petersen> Yeah I think so
13:51:18 <mcatanzaro> OK, good job today getting through so much! Final topic:
13:51:22 <mcatanzaro> #topic Ship fedora-workstation-repositories on install media
13:51:35 <otaylor> petersen: having rebootless font installation on silverblue would be nice :-) .... maybe we'll engineer a way some day
13:51:38 <aday> < mailing list discussion (etc)
13:51:54 <petersen> otaylor: yes that's true
13:52:14 <mcatanzaro> So shipping fedora-workstation-repositories seems likely to be controversial without gnome-software changes
13:52:16 <petersen> aday: thanks
13:53:00 <mcatanzaro> If we ship it currently without other changes, gnome-software will search the repos for software out-of-the-box, meaning Chrome, Pycharm, Steam, and the Nvidia driver show up without the usual prompt to enable third-party repos
13:53:49 <mcatanzaro> Fedora Council is very likely to not allow that, at least not without gnome-software changes to add some much more prominent warning/interstitial when installing proprietary software.
13:53:51 <langdon> probably not going to fly with council
13:54:10 <petersen> My feeling too
13:54:37 <mcatanzaro> Yeah so, that all said, I think it might fly if we want to do it for technical reasons, if we consider the above and have a plan to make the design changes we can reasonable anticipate would be required
13:54:38 <petersen>
13:55:07 <mcatanzaro> IMO there's no point in taking the current proposal to Council though; we know it's probably going to be rejected
13:55:30 <aday> it's not my understanding that that's the proposal
13:55:33 <otaylor> yeah, especially since we aren't limiting it to specific search terms ... if you search for "web browser" and gnome-software recommends chrome out of the box
13:55:48 <aday> i thought kalev wanted to ship the repos in a disabled state, and prompt to enable them
13:55:51 <otaylor> aday: it's not necessarily the proposal, but according to kalev, that's the behavior that we'll get.
13:56:19 <petersen> Doesn't gnome-software do the enabling already on demand?
13:56:23 <mcatanzaro> aday: Thing is gnome-software will search for software even in disabled repos, which Council has previously told us we may not do.
13:56:29 <petersen> Nod
13:56:34 <otaylor> aday:
13:56:53 <mcatanzaro> I mean, Council has said we can search through disabled repos, that's what we already do, but that means the proprietary software repos cannot be installed by default.
13:57:31 <mcatanzaro> So cschalle, kalev presented this at the last meeting, he said it was actually your proposal though... do you have any thoughts here? I guess we can continue at the next meeting as we're short on time.
13:57:33 <petersen> Doesn't that mean that the cisco repos already do this?
13:58:03 <otaylor> petersen: cisco repos are foss
13:58:10 <petersen> okay
13:58:37 <mcatanzaro> petersen: Cisco repo is sort-of free software though (the binary has odd restrictions but the source code is free software). I'd rather ask forgiveness rather than permission regarding Cisco if that's OK. ;)
13:58:56 <mcatanzaro> fedora-workstation-repositories is definitely nonfree though, that's a big difference.
13:59:11 <petersen> Okay right I see
13:59:34 <mcatanzaro> Anyway I'll close the meeting in one minute, last call for comments :)
13:59:48 <langdon> did next chair get selected?
13:59:55 <petersen> in the agenda
13:59:55 <mcatanzaro> #topic Open floor
13:59:59 <cmurf>
13:59:59 <aday> i can talk to kalev about the 3rd party repo ux
14:00:00 <petersen> invite
14:00:04 <cmurf> needs one more vote
14:00:08 <mcatanzaro> We can continue this next week, thanks for coming everyone. And especially aday for getting the discussion started on the new issue
14:00:08 <aday> see if we can work out a proposal between the two of us
14:00:30 <mcatanzaro> langdon: Our chairs are pre-scheduled, see
14:00:53 <petersen> I think it is good to remind about the next chair at the end of the meeting
14:01:15 <mcatanzaro> OK, next chair is Matthias Clasen on October 14
14:01:27 <petersen> Thanks!
14:01:44 <langdon> mcatanzaro: i thought we had emptied the pump
14:02:04 <petersen> mcatanzaro updated/refreshed
14:02:04 <mcatanzaro> langdon: Emptied the pump?
14:02:26 <petersen> run out
14:02:31 <cmurf> list was refreshed
14:02:33 <langdon> like we had to refill th elist... but I am not sure I know how it got generated in the first place
14:02:41 <mcatanzaro> I just went alphabetically.
14:02:43 <mcatanzaro> By last name ;)
14:02:50 <petersen> langdon: we just cycle
14:03:06 <langdon> ahh ok.. cool.. i must be mixing up meetings.. i thought we "voted"
14:03:25 <mcatanzaro> And *tried* to pick dates that didn't hit holidays this time, that's why we start on Jan 13 instead of Jan 6 like I had really wanted, to avoid MLK day and Presidents Day.
14:03:29 <mcatanzaro> Anyway, we're over time
14:03:33 <mcatanzaro> Attendance: mcatanzaro cmurf petersen aday langdon cschalle otaylor present, mclasen kalev Son_Goku missing. With the next meeting we can start tracking this cumulatively.
14:03:40 <mcatanzaro> #endmeeting