13:00:30 <cmurf> #startmeeting Fedora Workstation WG
13:00:31 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jul 15 13:00:30 2019 UTC.
13:00:31 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
13:00:31 <zodbot> The chair is cmurf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:00:31 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_workstation_wg'
13:00:35 <cmurf> #meetingname workstation
13:00:35 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
13:00:45 <cmurf> #topic Roll call
13:01:21 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
13:01:22 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <mcatanzaro@gnome.org>
13:01:32 <langdon> .hello2
13:01:33 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
13:02:22 <aday> o/
13:03:00 <cmurf> #chair mcatanzaro langdon
13:03:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: cmurf langdon mcatanzaro
13:03:11 <cmurf> Hi aday
13:03:42 <cmurf> We could use a few more people. mclasen juhp[m] ?
13:04:06 <mcatanzaro> kalev?
13:05:06 <mcatanzaro> Missing cschalle I see. And otaylor is on leave.
13:05:08 * sgallagh lurks
13:06:04 <kalev> mcatanzaro: I'm here
13:06:05 <cschalle> hi, me and mclasen got a confict atm, so we will not be able to follow this meeting very closely
13:06:37 <mcatanzaro> Seems I'm the one who missed cschalle's name in the list :D
13:08:15 <cmurf> #chair kalev
13:08:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: cmurf kalev langdon mcatanzaro
13:08:41 <cmurf> #topic Previous meeting followup
13:08:43 <cmurf> #info Anacanda accepted swap on ZRAM for LiveOS change
13:08:51 <cmurf> #info Anacanda accepted swap on ZRAM for LiveOS change
13:08:54 <cmurf> oops
13:08:57 <cmurf> #undo
13:08:58 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by cmurf at 13:08:51 : Anacanda accepted swap on ZRAM for LiveOS change
13:09:04 <cmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/56
13:09:20 <cmurf> So this is pretty much done, need to check when it lands in Rawhide. More info is in the ticket.
13:09:49 <cmurf> There is one additional change to drop the legacy swap stuff in live base kickstart, I have a PR for that planned but not yet issued.
13:10:28 <cmurf> That's the only followup I've got.
13:11:12 <kalev> I don't think anyone else here besides you really understand what this is about :)
13:12:07 <cmurf> Haha, well feel free to ask questions, otherwise I'll save the bandwidth for when there's a problem. :D
13:12:15 <kalev> maybe just close the workstation wg ticket? seems like there's just implementation details to work out
13:12:35 <langdon> unless you need it to track the work
13:12:37 <cmurf> Yeah I've got that pending also once I do the live base ks PR.
13:12:57 <cmurf> And make sure I haven't broken anything.
13:13:47 <cmurf> #topic Announcements
13:13:51 <cmurf> Got a few noteworthy dates...
13:13:58 <cmurf> #info Fedora 31 schedule. Self-contained change deadline is on Jul 23. All other change deadlines have past. Mass rebuild Jul 24. Branch on Aug 13.
13:14:34 <cmurf> Fedora QA meeting noted that the changeset for Fedora 31 "doesn't look too scary".
13:15:19 <cmurf> #info Flock, August 8 in Budapest
13:15:23 <langdon> thats the best note :)
13:15:24 <cmurf> #link https://flocktofedora.org/
13:15:35 <langdon> "not too scary" :)
13:15:36 <cmurf> Anyone going to Flock? Sadly I'm not.
13:15:47 <kalev> I'm not
13:15:58 <cmurf> adamw brings some of the best comedy :)
13:16:07 <langdon> i am
13:16:10 * sgallagh will be there
13:16:47 <cmurf> And actually that's August 8-11.
13:17:16 <cmurf> Got one other QA item of interest.
13:17:23 <cmurf> #info whether to no longer block on failure to boot from optical installation media (DVDs)
13:17:29 <cmurf> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/RAQ73U7AQ3QDF3MGNLH2TSJXQRTS3Y4K/
13:17:52 <cmurf> Gist there is it's a pain to manually test optical media (actual physical media) for installs.
13:18:25 <cmurf> I bring it up here in case Workstation WG has any concern about dropping the criterion. It doesn't mean this is expected to break anytime soon.
13:18:28 * mcatanzaro doesn't care about optical media
13:18:35 <cmurf> Just that if it did break, it's not a release blocking bug.
13:18:49 <langdon> well.. and the test is dropped?
13:18:56 <langdon> or just the test doesn't release block?
13:19:10 <kalev> are we still handing out DVDs conferences?
13:19:15 <kalev> are we still handing out DVDs at conferences?
13:19:38 <kalev> if so, it might be best not to break DVDs :)
13:19:57 <langdon> i think the council has been pushing drop the production of them.. but i can't remember whther the last burn went through or not
13:20:08 <cmurf> I don't know who handles making DVDs, maybe ambassadors?
13:20:10 <aday> kalev, coasters, you mean?
13:20:15 <kalev> haha :)
13:20:18 * aday runs
13:20:20 <langdon> im pretty sure mindshare pays for them
13:21:31 <langdon> i can't find any tickets for them on the mindshare issue list (open or closed) .. but that seems like an error
13:21:41 <cmurf> mattdm is on the case as well, after his Flock slides are sorted, so this is mostly just an FYI for Workstation WG folks.
13:21:54 <cmurf> We don't really have to coordinate.
13:22:11 <cmurf> Any concerns, bring it up in that 84 email thread on the test@ list
13:22:31 <kalev> thanks for the heads up!
13:22:38 <cmurf> Any other announcements, important dates, etc?
13:23:27 <cmurf> OK moving on.
13:23:37 <cmurf> #topic Automatically install the OpenH264 codecs
13:23:49 <cmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/84
13:24:23 <mcatanzaro> kalev mentioned this was waiting on releng
13:24:33 <cmurf> (Maybe I should include the link line in the topic?)
13:24:49 <mcatanzaro> What you're doing is fine IMO
13:25:23 <mcatanzaro> Anyway I guess we still have plenty of time before F31, just need to make sure the needed releng work happens
13:25:32 <mcatanzaro> Maybe kalev could poke them?
13:25:46 <kalev> I just did earlier today in https://pagure.io/releng/issue/8439
13:26:25 <cmurf> On the one hand it's a bit annoying a lot of content doesn't play by default on Firefox out of the box on Fedora Workstation.
13:27:00 <cmurf> But on the other hand, a lot of content is garbage that I don't want to see run automatically anyway.
13:27:31 <mcatanzaro> Well we probably want videos to be playable. Thanks kalev!
13:27:38 <cmurf> I agree.
13:28:10 <mcatanzaro> So with this plus the AAC work we should be shaping up for MP4 to work out-of-the-box in F31? In both Firefox and anything using GStreamer?
13:28:21 <cmurf> Flash player will be disabled by default in Chrome 76+, target is this month.
13:28:28 <kalev> Firefox isn't using gstreamer, as far as I know
13:28:40 <cmurf> That will start a big push by content developers to move to alternatives, I suspect.
13:29:18 <cmurf> But looks like Flash support won't be removed until Chrome 87+, target December 2020.
13:29:30 <langdon> does flash player work in chrome now? it only works like 10% of the time anyway
13:29:55 <cmurf> It should work in Chrome. It's not included in Chromium.
13:30:06 <mcatanzaro> kalev: Of course Firefox isn't using GStreamer... does that mean Firefox doesn't know how to use OpenH.264 directly for MP4 playback?
13:30:28 <langdon> yeah.. i always get errors about it not being installed.. i assume the site is testing for it poorly or something
13:30:30 <mcatanzaro> i.e. so does this benefit only GStreamer users, or does it work in Firefox too?
13:30:41 <kalev> mcatanzaro: I am not sure. I think it used to know how to use openh264, but not sure about the status right now
13:32:31 <kalev> we're also missing firefox side support to automatically install openh264, so it's far from working out of box
13:32:57 <kalev> and flatpaked firefox makes it even more complicated
13:32:57 <mcatanzaro> kalev: How does it get installed for GStreamer users? Or is that WIP too?
13:33:42 <kalev> mcatanzaro: the gstreamer plugin install should be working already now. totem talks to gnome-software and then gnome-software asks if you want to enable the extra openh264 repo and install the plugin from there
13:34:06 <mcatanzaro> Nice.
13:34:11 <kalev> yep :)
13:34:18 <mcatanzaro> cmurf: I guess that's all for this... anything else on the agenda?
13:34:48 <cmurf> ok moving on
13:35:00 <cmurf> #topic always update the bootloader on major upgrades
13:35:25 <cmurf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/97
13:35:48 <kalev> I saw some fedora devel list discussion pass by, but haven't followed any of it
13:36:16 <kalev> did the devel list discussion result in something you think is not good for workstation users?
13:36:33 <cmurf> No. I think it's necessary.
13:37:05 <kalev> no, I mean, are you trying to get workstation wg to override something that the grub maintainers don't want to do?
13:37:11 <kalev> just trying to understand what you are asking here :)
13:37:22 <cmurf> Javier agrees. I'm mainly taking it on because I know a bit about the issues, and also I have no problem taking heat off devs from P.O. users.
13:37:24 <cmurf> :D
13:37:29 <kalev> ahh, great
13:37:47 <cmurf> I'm just trying to make sure there's a process. That we're deliberate. Everyone's informed.
13:37:58 <kalev> I also think it would be good to have the bootloader updated after distro upgrades
13:38:07 <cmurf> And then that way when it happens, there's no way to claim, oh god you did this without discussion.
13:38:23 <kalev> right, thanks for clarifying :)
13:38:27 <cmurf> For sure it should happen at least during major upgrades.
13:38:39 <cmurf> We're not certain yet there's a way to only do it during major upgrades.
13:38:56 <cmurf> e.g. on UEFI, the bootloader stuff gets updated anytime the RPMs get updated.
13:39:16 <cmurf> So how do we trigger a 'grub2-install' on BIOS, only on a major upgrade and not minor updates? Not yet certain.
13:39:39 <cmurf> And if we do it every minor update, does that unnecessarily make users with custom bootloader configs mad? Not certain.
13:40:00 <kalev> sgallagh: do you know how to trigger scriptlets to only run on distro upgrades?
13:40:28 <sgallagh> There's no *inherent* mechanism to do that.
13:40:35 <otaylor> cmurf: is the idea that rawhide users would just need to do it manually
13:40:40 <kalev> if we don't have a mechanism, then we could create one
13:40:47 <sgallagh> Since from RPM's perspective, there is no difference between that and a standard package update
13:40:58 <sgallagh> But I can think of a few hacks to do it.
13:41:01 <kalev> something like a drop in directory, /usr/lib/upgrades.d with scripts to run
13:41:19 <kalev> and then dnf offline updater and packagekit offline updater could run it at the end of distro upgrade transactions
13:41:25 <cmurf> otaylor: I'd like to avoid that too; so if there is a way for fcX -> fcX+1 to be a trigger
13:41:33 <cmurf> that'd also work for Rawhide
13:41:33 <sgallagh> Actually, the easiest way is probably a filetrigger... yeah, in a drop dir
13:42:02 <cmurf> If we say "Fedora takes responsibility for bootloaders to be up to date" then that means everyone including Rawhide
13:42:02 <sgallagh> Doesn't need to be a dnf/pk change; we just need to have triggers in place.
13:42:08 <sgallagh> RPM would handle that fine
13:43:11 <cmurf> OK I brought this up to Workstation WG first because the multiboot stuff, and custom bootloader stuff, affects almost exclusively desktop users.
13:43:20 <cmurf> Server people don't do dual boot; nor do cloud users.
13:43:43 <cmurf> So strictly speaking, the bootloader update change affects all Fedora editions and outputs including spins.
13:43:49 <kalev> I think you are our bootloader expert, cmurf :) don't think anyone else here has such deep knowledge
13:43:57 <sgallagh> Well, I have a couple dual-boot servers, but it's mostly because I'm experimenting with converting them to OStree :)
13:44:32 <cmurf> kalev: yeah I get that part, I just want to tackle the difficult user advocacy aspect here, not the rabbit hole of bootloader esoterics.
13:44:43 <mcatanzaro> I don't think we should spend a ton of effort creating a custom mechanism to make update behavior differ between OS upgrades and normal updates, when BIOS is already a legacy thing anyway
13:45:07 <mcatanzaro> We don't have to have full feature-parity with modern systems
13:45:34 <sgallagh> mcatanzaro: Well, what I'm talking about is setting up a filetrigger mechanism to determine when the bootloader scriptlets should execute.
13:45:34 <mcatanzaro> Updating the bootloader seems important, of course
13:45:45 <cmurf> mcatanzaro: which is why I'm OK with only updating BIOS bootloader at major upgrades, rather than minor upates like on UEFI
13:45:45 * mcatanzaro shrugs
13:45:51 <sgallagh> We can then decide independently when those happen.
13:46:11 <sgallagh> (So opting-in to having them always happen on an upgrade becomes a possible use-case, but it's not tied to it)
13:46:47 <cmurf> sgallagh: Right. And also a question is whether to bring everyone forward, or only new clean installs.
13:47:23 <cmurf> I'm kindof of the opinion that a future upgrade brings everyone into the new paradigm, with an opt out.
13:47:45 <cmurf> Lots of Fedora users only ever do upgrades, not clean installs. For years and years. Hence the problem.
13:47:51 * sgallagh nods
13:48:07 <cmurf> OK that's all I've got on this for now.
13:48:15 <kalev> Yes, especially now that gnome-software nags users and provides and easy way to do a distro upgrade
13:48:30 <cmurf> kalev: Exactly, and agreed.
13:48:55 <cmurf> Also for comparison purposes, on Windows and macOS, users are never involved, even on an opt out basis, in bootloader related stuff.
13:49:14 <cmurf> They own the bootloader exclusively, not at all user domain.
13:50:03 <cmurf> Our users should trust we're doing this for good reasons for most users.
13:50:19 * kalev agrees.
13:50:37 <cmurf> #topic Open Floor
13:51:16 <sgallagh> cmurf: +1
13:53:25 <langdon> doesn't seem like much for open floor
13:54:02 * cmurf sets a 1 minute fuse...
13:54:27 <mcatanzaro> yawn
13:54:33 <mcatanzaro> Good morning everybody!
13:54:57 <cmurf> yeah time for another coffee
13:55:10 <cmurf> ok cya folks thanks for showing up!
13:55:14 <cmurf> #endmeeting