13:11:09 <petersen> #startmeeting workstation
13:11:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun  3 13:11:09 2019 UTC.
13:11:09 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
13:11:09 <zodbot> The chair is petersen. Information about MeetBot at
13:11:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:11:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
13:11:17 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
13:11:27 <mcatanzaro> Ah, petersen beat me!
13:11:40 <petersen> #meetingname workstation
13:11:40 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
13:11:44 <mcatanzaro> Thanks
13:11:52 <petersen> mcatanzaro: ah there you are :)
13:12:17 <mcatanzaro> I pinged mclasen but it looks like he's not here right now, and then lost track of time
13:12:38 <petersen> #chair mcatanzaro ryanlerch aday cmurf
13:12:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf mcatanzaro petersen ryanlerch
13:12:40 <ryanlerch> .hello ryanlerch
13:12:42 <zodbot> ryanlerch: ryanlerch 'Ryan Lerch' <>
13:12:53 <cmurf> .hello chrismurphy
13:12:54 <zodbot> cmurf: chrismurphy 'Chris Murphy' <>
13:13:07 <petersen> .hello2
13:13:08 <otaylor> .hello2
13:13:08 <zodbot> petersen: petersen 'Jens Petersen' <>
13:13:08 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
13:13:11 <zodbot> otaylor: otaylor 'Owen Taylor' <>
13:13:14 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <>
13:13:39 <petersen> #chair otaylor
13:13:40 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf mcatanzaro otaylor petersen ryanlerch
13:13:48 <mcatanzaro> Quorum!
13:14:17 <kalev> morning
13:14:46 <petersen> I wasn't really prepared to chair the meeting today but I can play chair unless someone else wants too...
13:14:58 <petersen> #chair kalev
13:14:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf kalev mcatanzaro otaylor petersen ryanlerch
13:15:10 <petersen> What topics do we have?
13:15:36 <cmurf> the tagged issues are
13:16:09 <petersen> mcatanzaro: you are not on #fedora-workstation btw :)
13:16:45 <mcatanzaro> petersen: Yeah, I do not idle in freenode anymore since it started to require nickserv. I only tolerate it for these meetings....
13:17:02 <petersen> okay...
13:17:06 <mcatanzaro> I'm in #fedora-desktop on GIMPNet. Too many rooms
13:17:15 <petersen> and servers
13:17:31 <cschalle> weird, I didn't have a calendar entry for today
13:17:45 <petersen> #topic Vote for new WG meeting time
13:17:58 <petersen>
13:18:00 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: Paul deleted the old calendar and I created a new one, since there was no way to transfer ownership away from him
13:18:18 <mcatanzaro> Well it's the same calendar, just a new calendar entry
13:18:30 <mcatanzaro> #link
13:18:31 <petersen> Current time seems working not too badly though...
13:18:40 <petersen> #chair cschalle
13:18:40 <zodbot> Current chairs: aday cmurf cschalle kalev mcatanzaro otaylor petersen ryanlerch
13:19:52 <cmurf> yeah that entry doesn't have a location, i.e. doesn't say what room we're scheduled for
13:20:04 <cmurf> and the room calendars don't have a workstation wg meeting
13:21:35 <mcatanzaro> Thanks cmurf, I've fixed that now:
13:21:48 <cmurf> okcool
13:24:08 <mcatanzaro> So we're still missing votes from mclasen, cschalle, and langdon in the time poll
13:25:00 <cschalle> working on it now
13:25:09 <mcatanzaro> But based on current results, the meeting time would be one hour earlier, Monday or Tuesday
13:25:28 <langdon> apologies.. but i am feeling terrible all of a sudden.. taking some meds and hoping ill feel better soon
13:25:32 <cmurf> egads
13:25:52 <mcatanzaro> Get well soon, langdon!
13:25:56 <langdon> thanks
13:26:29 <ryanlerch> mcatanzaro: that can work for me, it makes it 22:00, and 23:00 in my summer / northern winter
13:26:52 <ryanlerch> a little more doable than 23:00 and 0000
13:26:52 <cschalle> done
13:28:00 <mcatanzaro> OK, cschalle's vote ruined it, there's no longer any time that works for everyone even before mclasen and langdon have voted
13:28:16 <cmurf> haha
13:28:38 <cschalle> :)
13:29:14 <cmurf> if only the earth were flat but rotated so that there were no timezones
13:29:18 <mcatanzaro> Yup
13:29:30 <otaylor> let's wait for the rest of the votes and figure out where to go from there
13:30:49 <mcatanzaro> langdon: Would you mind voting in now if you could? I've pinged mclasen, he is playing hooky today
13:30:53 <petersen> cschalle: if you click twice you can "maybe"
13:32:32 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: Yes, please add maybe times!
13:32:57 <cschalle> ok, trying to add more times
13:34:10 <cmurf> There's a maybe times? That definitely describes an hour earlier for me (0600 local).
13:34:59 <cmurf> Anyway, how about we move on to the other issues?
13:35:07 <mcatanzaro> """Weekends are included due to the difficultly we had trying to schedule the last time we tried to select a new time. Please be as flexible as possible. Use two clicks to select "if need be" for any time periods that you can possibly attend but do not want to. Only reject time periods that you really cannot or will not attend. E.g. I used the "if need be" option to select early morning times and weekend times. Of course we'll try to select
13:35:09 <mcatanzaro> a time that as many people are happy with as possible, but I suspect we'll need the flexibility of the "if need be" choices to be successful here."""
13:35:17 <petersen> cmurf: (✔)
13:35:42 <mcatanzaro> ZNow that cschalle has added maybe times, it looks like this will work after all
13:36:54 * otaylor votes for moving on rather than obsessively hitting reload on the table to see if anybody else voted
13:37:28 <petersen> mcatanzaro: yeah seems like what cschalle said 1 hour earlier on Mon or Tue
13:37:38 * mcatanzaro busy obsessively hitting reload
13:37:58 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: Do you want to take: "efault disk partitioning layout for Workstation"?
13:38:30 <mcatanzaro> Or shall we discuss "Guidance on permitted size of fedora-workstation-backgrounds" and argue about live media size?
13:38:45 <petersen> #topic Guidance on permitted size of fedora-workstation-backgrounds
13:38:53 <petersen>
13:38:58 <petersen> new topic
13:39:01 <otaylor> I'm not sure there's much to discuss on the default disk partitioning. I haven't had a chance to follow up and try to make progress on figuring out an encryption consensus
13:39:28 <petersen> aday:
13:39:40 <otaylor> before next meeting, I'll figure out whether I still can be lead that, or need to ask someone else to do that
13:39:49 <petersen> great
13:40:09 <petersen> aday: want to say something on this ticket
13:40:11 <aday> there are probably a few different ways you can approach the question
13:40:14 <petersen> ?
13:40:24 <aday> the most obvious is what our maximum limit is
13:40:48 <cmurf> are we talking about backgrounds? the actual topic? or a different one?
13:41:11 <aday> but we could also ask what amount of space we're prepared to give to assets like this as a matter of principle
13:41:38 <mcatanzaro> TBH I don't care how much space our wallpapers take up, but I do want to keep media size below 2 GB....
13:41:39 <kalev> I don't think we are much space constrained
13:42:01 <aday> from a ux perspective i think the pressure is to include more and more - since giving people choice is good
13:42:07 <cmurf> I'm fine with up to another 100MiB of background images, I guess the negative side effect is upgrades will accumulate backgrounds if they can't or won't be deleted
13:42:14 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: 2GB flash drives are 2GB decimal, right?
13:42:16 <kalev> apps keep getting larger and larger and we haven't kept an eye on this at all. adding a few more wallpapers is just going to let lost in the regular size increases
13:42:22 <aday> and we currently lack mechanisms and infrastructure to download images on the fly
13:42:37 <otaylor> cmurf: if they are in a package, then they will get deleted on upgrades sa we change the set
13:42:38 <kalev> yep, agreed, another 100 MB would be fine I'd say
13:43:24 <petersen> I dunno how many wallpapers we need installed by default really...
13:43:29 <ryanlerch> note that the package here is the "default" backgrounds that are included for releases going forward. the default default background is the one that changes every release
13:43:44 <ryanlerch> and is in a different pakage
13:44:03 <aday> do we know the breakdown of what uses space in the ISO?
13:44:08 <otaylor> aday: one thought I had was "if we did have a mechanism for online images, and it downloaded 45mb of thumbnails, nobody would blink twice" - I think practically speaking the increase is pretty tiny - except if you have a really bad network - and then having a richer set of included content is probably nice
13:44:19 <kalev> aday: no, nobody keeps an eye on the size.
13:44:55 <ryanlerch> aday: another thing here too is the fedora-workstation-backgrounds package actually has a bunch of photos in PNG, which makes them pretty big
13:45:05 <mcatanzaro> Problem is everything adds up, and increasing size makes Fedora significantly less-accessible for users who don't have broadband connections
13:45:08 <petersen> Presumably we want to set some upper bound for the iso size
13:45:12 <cmurf> if the background service that were to download images is set to be metered sensitive, i.e. not do it on a metered connection, then I'm OK with it
13:45:16 <kalev> aday: I used to do size breakdowns and culling unwanted size increases around F20 release time, but haven't done it afterwards
13:45:35 <aday> otaylor: yes, although, to play devil's advocate - we maybe don't want people complaining about half their OS being wallpapers
13:45:47 <ryanlerch> this was just how they came in the supplementals, so that is what was added to this new package
13:45:58 <petersen> aday: yeah hehe
13:46:09 <mcatanzaro> IIRC the image size increased significantly due to Noto fonts, right? That was supposed to be temporary but it didn't turn out to be temporary?
13:46:19 <mcatanzaro> We had a long discussion about this last year, right? Anyone remember that?
13:46:28 <petersen> mcatanzaro: we will move to VF fonts sooner or later
13:46:29 <cmurf> yes
13:46:42 <petersen> currently later...
13:47:06 <aday> ryanlerch: did i measure the size of the backgrounds correctly?
13:47:10 <petersen> But yeah we can discuss more about langpacks at Flock
13:47:22 <aday> i just cloned the repo and looked at the directory size
13:48:01 <petersen> (VF = variable fonts)
13:48:05 <ryanlerch> aday: probably -- i'm just noting there is some optimizations that *could* be done on the current set
13:48:15 <aday> ryanlerch: ah right, ok
13:48:18 <aday> yes that'd be good
13:48:30 <cmurf> another option is if we support a format other than JPEG, and can use a more aggressive compression algorithm
13:48:47 <aday> anyway, i'm getting the general feeling that it's ok to increase the number of wallpapers, if we don't go silly
13:49:04 <kalev> agreed
13:49:11 <petersen> Is 20 enough for now?
13:49:31 <cmurf> +1
13:49:38 <cmurf> i'll go up to 100MiB
13:49:46 <ryanlerch> or maybe a size limit?
13:50:01 <mcatanzaro> 100 MiB seems like too much
13:50:11 <petersen> mcatanzaro: I feel so too
13:50:53 <mcatanzaro> I feel like we can be confident that Noto fonts are taking up a lot of space right now... I thought we had an understanding that would be only for one release
13:51:20 <mcatanzaro> It would be nice if we knew how the space on our live image was being used
13:51:21 <petersen> mcatanzaro: it is less than the original take
13:51:34 <aday> we can come back with a concrete proposal if that would help decision-making
13:51:44 <mcatanzaro> Does converting the backgrounds from PNG to JPEG 90% quality look bad?
13:52:00 <cmurf> Depends on the image
13:52:16 <cmurf> synthetic images do better with PNG, and high frequency images tend to do better with JPEG
13:52:40 <petersen> I like the idea of better compression and maybe some guidance on the number of wallpapers
13:53:04 <ryanlerch> the images in the package currently range from 428KB to 7MB
13:53:05 <otaylor> I don't think # of wallpapers is somtehing thta we need to weigh in on
13:53:13 <cmurf> and if you're working on original pixels, you can get away with quite an aggressive JPEG quality factor, possibly even 50%
13:53:24 <otaylor> just the size - which is the constraint that the design/UX team needs to work within
13:53:41 <petersen> I mean rather than just agreeing to a arbitrary size limit
13:54:22 <petersen> Anyway the ask was for 75MB
13:54:35 <petersen> I don't see a strong need to give more
13:54:42 <cmurf> +1 75MiB
13:55:02 <petersen> (erm 70MB actually but anyway)
13:55:19 <otaylor> +1 to going to ~75MiB (not a hard limit - just general guidance)
13:55:24 <kalev> +1
13:55:24 <petersen> +1
13:55:37 <ryanlerch> +1
13:56:15 <mcatanzaro> I'm going to be disappointed if this pushes us past 2 GB, but OK, +1
13:56:16 <petersen> Anyone else want to weigh in?
13:57:08 <ryanlerch> how close are we to the 2GB?
13:57:27 <cmurf> very
13:57:53 <petersen> In the long term it would be nice to download the wallpapers on demand
13:58:16 <aday> petersen: i think you need some pre-installed, for offline cases
13:58:25 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: is your reasoning optics, or a desire to fit onto usb sticks from the back of a users drawer?
13:58:34 <petersen> aday: sure not all obviously :-)
13:58:35 <aday> core set pre-installed with a wider set that's online could be good
13:58:45 <petersen> yep
13:58:50 <cmurf> -rw-r--r--. 1 root root  1988689920 May 29 14:02 Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-Rawhide-20190527.n.0.iso
13:59:14 <petersen> What is the precise limit?
13:59:46 <petersen> 2GB not 2GiB right?
13:59:53 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: I don't care about optics. Fitting onto USB sticks would be quite nice. Most important to me is keeping the size from ballooning unnecessarily to be kind to users who don't have broadband
13:59:55 <cmurf> Pretty sure manufacturers use SI units, not IEC
13:59:58 <cmurf> petersen:correct
14:00:29 <mcatanzaro> Imagine if you need seven hours to download Fedora... as opposed to 5-20 minutes if you live in the US
14:00:32 <cmurf> ^USB stick manufacturers
14:00:36 <petersen> Not so easy to get 2GB sticks anymore - I am more concerned with download times, storage etc
14:00:39 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: So you are basically saying you want to draw a line in the sand, and 2GB is as good as place to draw a line as anywhere else?
14:00:49 <mcatanzaro> Well I don't want to necessarily say that either
14:01:04 <mcatanzaro> We used to have the line at 1 GB and that was unquestionably too small, we were shrinking image sizes in user help just to avoid crossing it
14:01:13 <mcatanzaro> So if it's necessary to cross 2 GB, then it's necessary
14:01:28 <petersen> Well the line needs to evolve inevitably... I guess the question is at what rate?
14:01:32 <mcatanzaro> But we know we accepted a huge size increase from Noto fonts, that probably wasn't necessary
14:02:05 <petersen> mcatanzaro: it was not so huge - I need to like back at the numbers
14:02:12 <mcatanzaro> We had been comfortably around 1.7 GB or thereabouts for quite a while, and now all of a sudden we are at 2 GB
14:02:36 <mcatanzaro> Yeah having numbers to look at would be nice
14:02:55 <mcatanzaro> Anyway, the change is approved: if we want to look at image size later, we can do that
14:02:58 <petersen> The initial proposal was huge and then we delayed a release as I recall
14:03:11 <petersen> yep
14:03:16 <petersen> we are out of time
14:03:29 <petersen> #topic Next meeting
14:03:49 <mcatanzaro> #agreed fedora-workstation-backgrounds can raise to ~75 MB
14:03:58 <petersen> Chair is Kalev
14:04:05 <petersen> sorry for crossing topics
14:04:08 <aday> thanks everyone
14:04:19 <petersen> Thanks
14:04:22 <mcatanzaro> No problem. I'll send out the next meeting time once Langdon votes, but it looks like it will be one hour earlier on Monday
14:04:28 <petersen> Great
14:04:33 <mcatanzaro> So 8 AM EDT instead of 9 AM EDT, pending Langdon's vote
14:04:41 <petersen> Cool
14:04:53 <mcatanzaro> Should make it easier for Ryan to attend. Sadder for me and my alarm clock, but oh well.
14:04:54 <petersen> Anything else before closing?
14:05:13 <petersen> I will wait a minute
14:06:03 <petersen> #endmeeting