workstation
MINUTES
14:01:04 <stickster> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:01:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Feb 26 14:01:04 2018 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:01:07 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
14:01:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:01:09 <stickster> #topic Roll call
14:01:13 <stickster> #chair cschalle
14:01:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle stickster
14:01:21 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
14:01:22 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'Michael Catanzaro' <mcatanzaro@gnome.org>
14:01:25 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:01:27 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:01:39 * stickster has to be in lurking mode today due to conflict
14:01:54 <stickster> cschalle is taking chair since mclasen is away -- they can settle up that swap when Matthias returns ;-)
14:02:07 <stickster> #chair mcatanzaro
14:02:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle mcatanzaro stickster
14:02:14 <cschalle> stickster, what are todays agenda items again?
14:02:32 <juhp_> .hello petersen
14:02:35 <zodbot> juhp_: petersen 'Jens Petersen' <petersen@redhat.com>
14:02:49 <cschalle> issues 32 ->35?
14:03:18 <stickster> cschalle: So we usually use this link for agenda: https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issues?status=Open&tags=meeting
14:03:27 <kalev> .hello kalev
14:03:28 <zodbot> kalev: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <klember@redhat.com>
14:03:30 <rdieter> .hello rdieter
14:03:31 <zodbot> rdieter: rdieter 'Rex Dieter' <rdieter@gmail.com>
14:03:37 <stickster> However, I'm not sure whether mcatanzaro had updated those issues after last meeting
14:04:04 <cschalle> ok
14:05:09 <mcatanzaro> stickster: Shotwell change is done; I'll close the issue once I've booted a live image to verify that it's there.
14:05:30 <mcatanzaro> Simple Scan and To Do don't require WG approval IMO, but we can discuss if you want
14:05:40 <mcatanzaro> We should add the meeting tag to #35
14:06:08 <otaylor> sorry to be late
14:06:43 <kalev> I think we should discuss all default app additions/removal, I don't think Simple Scan and To Do somehow get a free pass
14:08:07 <cschalle> ok, so formally on the agenda for today then is just the Reduce Initial Setup redundancy. And then maybe we want to add the question of Simple Scan and TODO
14:08:40 <cschalle> what is the command again to set the first agenda item?
14:09:06 <stickster> #topic
14:09:12 <stickster> oops, lol
14:09:14 <stickster> #undo
14:09:14 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x3415f1d0>
14:09:23 <cschalle> #topic https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/21 - Reduce initial setup redundancy
14:09:59 <cschalle> ok, so afaik I know the plan to drop user creation in the installer in favour of only having it in GIS got approved right?
14:10:18 <stickster> #chair kalev juhp_ rdieter otaylor
14:10:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle juhp_ kalev mcatanzaro otaylor rdieter stickster
14:10:29 <rdieter> cschalle: I believe so
14:10:47 <stickster> #info ryanlerch is out at FAD today and mclasen is on vacation
14:10:49 <cschalle> looking at the ticket I guess there is an open question about input config? mcatanzaro can you eloborate maybe?
14:11:19 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: The problem is that anaconda is not as good at input configuration as g-i-s
14:11:46 <mcatanzaro> g-i-s allows configuring keyboard layout and input method, but anaconda can only configure keyboard layout: it doesn't know anything about input methods
14:12:38 <otaylor> Probably it doesn't matter much for anaconda - I suspect that naming your partitions with input-method-only-inputtable names is going to end in tears
14:12:47 <mcatanzaro> After I implemented the proposed changes, there's no longer any prompt to configure input method, you have to open control center
14:12:47 <juhp_> mcatanzaro: I forgot to come back to the ticket last week
14:12:56 <juhp_> I commented though
14:13:39 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: It's a problem because I've skipped the keyboard spoke in g-i-s
14:14:19 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: We could possibly use locale as a heuristic, though the list of input-method requiring locales is not tiny.
14:14:35 <juhp_> (Currently I think ibus doesn't work in anaconda for some technical reasons but that is another story)
14:14:38 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: Basically, if you have a locale where we think you'll need an input method, we show that spoke anyways.
14:14:49 <juhp_> otaylor: right exactly
14:14:54 <juhp_> that is my plan/idea too
14:15:13 <otaylor> juhp_: Do you think having an input method in anaconda is useful? (I suppose it's definitely useful when trying out the live desktop.)
14:15:22 <mcatanzaro> That's probably a good idea... now who wants to implement it. :P
14:15:30 <juhp_> otaylor: we could - or we could even boldly hardcode the input sources
14:15:42 <juhp_> otaylor: I don't know really
14:15:49 <otaylor> juhp_: so ibus doesn't even work in anaconda when it's running under gnome-shell ?
14:15:52 <juhp_> not a high priority anyway
14:16:13 <juhp_> otaylor: not currently I believe - but it should not be hard
14:16:30 <juhp_> fujiwara told be it is related to gsettings
14:16:32 <mcatanzaro> If we had real developer time as opposed to mcatanzaro free time, we could go the full distance and run language selection and keyboard layout selection in a separate session before starting the live session, which has always been my plan since bochecha first suggested it. But that requires effort. And gdm hacking.
14:16:55 <juhp_> Right but that sounds unlikely to be attainable for F28
14:17:10 <juhp_> back to gdm keyboard selection lol :)
14:17:12 <otaylor> juhp_: The "Input Source" selection for Japanese looks a bit odd and intimidating when I open it from the control center
14:17:23 <juhp_> Yes :-(
14:17:28 <juhp_> it sucks
14:17:48 <juhp_> Which is why I would prefer to hardcode the IMEs in gnome-initial-setup actually currently
14:18:03 <otaylor> Do you want "Japanese" or "Japanese (Kana Kanji)" - I would imagine that most Japanese users would be baffled by that choice
14:18:05 <juhp_> Actually we should separate keyboard layouts and input methods
14:18:09 <juhp_> it is too confusing
14:18:17 <juhp_> indeed
14:18:43 <juhp_> So it is a good opportunity to improve this now I feel
14:18:54 <juhp_> now = sooner than later :)
14:19:32 <otaylor> If we can come up with reasonable defaults, then hardcoding it for initial setup would take this out of the initial path, and then we could look at making it better from the control center for f29
14:20:02 <juhp_> right
14:20:04 <juhp_> +1
14:20:08 <cschalle> juhp, ok, so can you and your team come up with a solution here and implement it in time for F28?
14:20:09 <juhp_> That was basically my plan
14:20:16 <cschalle> ok great +1 :)
14:20:17 <juhp_> We can try :)
14:20:21 <mcatanzaro> Thanks!
14:20:28 <juhp_> I asked epico to look at it
14:20:40 <juhp_> Okay I will poke him
14:21:09 <juhp_> sure
14:21:12 <cschalle> ok, I think we are done here then
14:21:15 <cschalle> so next item
14:21:29 <cschalle> #topic simple-scan and to-do in default install
14:21:43 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, want to elaborate on rationale ?
14:22:23 <mcatanzaro> They're "new" (as of last year) upstream core apps, and we don't have any strong reason to diverge from upstream here IMO
14:22:33 <mcatanzaro> simple-scan is basic computer functionality that we should have
14:22:51 <mcatanzaro> To Do is more optional and iffy, but no strong reason not to have it.
14:23:12 <cschalle> I agree in the sense that I often use simple-scan, however no big problem I found with it is that it never compress the images it scans so I end up with gigantic pdfs
14:23:43 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: Is there a plan that core apps are limited in number, or does any app that passes the bar for quality and design make it in?
14:23:52 <kalev> I think aday used to say that we should keep the list of default apps minimal and try and get users to install them through the software center instead
14:23:54 <cschalle> well I think in general we should keep the defaults to a minimum and neither app is hard to find in GNOME Software IMHO
14:24:41 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: There are no hard criteria, but the collection of core apps is certainly intended to be curated; new apps have to be considered with respect to other core apps. Too many is not good. We're actually starting to hit up against "too many" IMO.
14:24:43 <otaylor> I think simple scan and todo are great (less experience with todo) _but_ I don't think that means they have to be default installed - and for atomic workstation, it means that they are unremovable (given current technology)
14:25:07 <juhp_> Do most people have scanners?
14:25:41 * juhp_ never tried gnome-simple-scan
14:25:44 <cschalle> juhp, probably not
14:25:58 <mcatanzaro> juhp_: How would you scan things without a scanner? :P
14:26:29 <mcatanzaro> I used to walk to the library whenever I needed a scanner, now I just... simple scan :D
14:26:35 <juhp_> mcatanzaro: the scanner at work - scans to usb stick... :)
14:26:50 <juhp_> I should try perhaps
14:27:11 <cschalle> ok, so I don't know if there really is a lot to discuss here. Atm I am a -1 on this proposal
14:27:23 <mcatanzaro> Anyway, my HP scanner just gives an error about unsupported OS if I try to use the scan buttons on it. But it works perfectly in Fedora from simple scan. So it's important for discoverability, IMO.
14:27:37 <juhp_> mcatanzaro: aha
14:28:41 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: To give more context on possible future default apps, we're actually more likely to remove rather than add more. system-monitor and baobab are being compressed into Usage. archive-manager is supposed to be compressed into nautilus. eog and evince are also going to be dropped. Only new one we would add without replacement is likely to be ge
14:28:41 <mcatanzaro> ary, but in Fedora that would be replacing evolution.
14:29:05 <mcatanzaro> (eog subsumed into gnome-photos once it learns to open files. Same for evince into gnome-documents)
14:29:15 <mcatanzaro> (Neither of those will be ready in F28, though)
14:30:12 <cschalle> ok, should we vote on this?
14:30:33 <cschalle> or rather I will call a vote unless someone objects
14:31:01 <cschalle> ok, so +1 if you want to add these apps and -1 to keep them out of default
14:31:03 <cschalle> -1
14:31:34 <kalev> -1
14:31:40 <mcatanzaro> I'm +1, obviously
14:32:09 <cschalle> otaylor,  and juhp_ ?
14:32:24 * rdieter assumes each of these is relatively small without many external dependencies?
14:32:24 <otaylor> -1, but I might be convinceable with a list of what the current default set of apps is, and how that compares to the gnome core apps
14:32:38 <kalev> I could be convinced to go the other way if aday thinks they need to be in the default install, but right now I think they can just as well be installed through gnome-software
14:32:54 <cschalle> rdieter, yeah both are pretty small footprint
14:32:54 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: Currently our only divergence from GNOME core apps is epiphany, gnome-music, simple-scan, and todo ;)
14:32:58 <juhp_> I just tried gnome-todo
14:33:26 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, and geary I think you said :)
14:33:45 <mcatanzaro> rdieter: simple-scan depends on sane. To Do depends on evolution-data-server, but that's already present.
14:33:46 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: You mean, those are the only ones that are missing?  but what about extras?
14:33:47 <juhp_> hmm
14:34:22 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: We don't want "extra" apps in the default install, IMO, except for clear exceptions: LibreOffice and Firefox. I don't *think* there are others anymore, but I'm not completely sure.
14:34:55 <juhp_> 0
14:35:06 <mcatanzaro> Here is the list of upstream core applications: https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2017/08/13/gnome-3-26-core-applications/
14:35:11 <juhp_> simple-scan looks more useful to me than todo
14:35:26 <mcatanzaro> I agree that simple-scan is more useful than todo (juhp_ you could vote for one and not the other if you want ;)
14:35:47 <juhp_> Yeah if I knew it better perhaps
14:37:12 <cschalle> ok, lets consider this a -1 for now, but if owen, juhp or kalev wants to change their vote later on we can bring it up again?
14:37:44 <mcatanzaro> Seems fair, a bit of a shame though
14:38:56 <cschalle> btw as a note, I updated the 3rd party proposal to point to our pagure instance for where to file tickets for adding 3rd party repos. I am planning to start submitting tickets myself just waiting for kalev to ensure we are shipping something rock solid here in GNOME Software first
14:39:24 <cschalle> the current support in F27 is mostly ok, but it fails to show the correct config dialog in some cases
14:39:45 * kalev nods.
14:39:58 <kalev> we're trying to get gnome-software 3.28 into F27 to make this work better
14:40:46 <cschalle> I will also try to come up with some kind of submission template to use
14:41:09 <cschalle> ok, anyone got something else or should I end the meeting?
14:41:26 <kalev> nothing from me
14:41:54 <mcatanzaro> There was the rhythmbox -> gnome-music issue
14:42:16 <mcatanzaro> Which would not increase the number of apps we have by default. But perhaps we don't want a music player anymore, either? :P
14:42:58 <cschalle> heh, actually I personally think we should not. Neither app seems to be a killer and streaming seems to be slowly killing the desktop music player anyway
14:43:47 <mcatanzaro> Does spotify work in Fedora now that we support MP3?
14:44:27 <otaylor> I think the people who have ripped music collections probably mostly have them on a home server or something ... it may be that totem to play the occasional mp3 is enough.
14:44:27 <mcatanzaro> (We really could drop Rhythmbox without replacement. That would actually be my preferred outcome if Music is not approved.)
14:45:08 <cschalle> I did install a spotify RPM from somewhere, seemed to work well
14:45:18 <cschalle> s/well/ok/
14:46:18 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: Home server seems like a use-case for power users, though, not who we should be optimizing for....
14:46:31 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: I think large ripped music collections are for power users these days
14:46:47 <mcatanzaro> Agreed that totem is better at playing MP3s than Rhythmbox. And Music cannot do it at all (cannot open files).
14:46:51 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: And apps to handle them thus don't make a lot of sense in the default install
14:47:12 <mcatanzaro> totem should definitely become our default music player.
14:47:44 <mcatanzaro> #topic GNOME Music
14:48:18 * otaylor would really like to have aday here for discussions of default apps - I feel we're playing at UX experts here - though I appreciate mcantazaro bringing the GNOME release team perspective
14:48:47 <cschalle> is default app list really a UX issue as such?
14:49:11 <otaylor> cschalle: definitely?
14:49:14 <mcatanzaro> OTOH we could have made the same argument against Photos last week (large local photo collections mostly for power users)
14:49:48 <mcatanzaro> cschalle: The set of core apps is entirely a design issue, IMO.
14:50:24 <otaylor> cschalle: I think the main thing is actual app conception -since aday has been invovled in the design of most of these apps ... what is the core use case for the app
14:50:50 <otaylor> but also for default apps, I think it often depends on the overall concevied flow of the desktop - what happens when you plug in a camera, etc.
14:50:56 <mcatanzaro> aday actually objected to one of the new additions (it was actually gnome-todo ;) so now my rule is to not add anything upstream without his approval, FWIW.
14:51:59 <mcatanzaro> Any design review should occur on the upstream list as well (which is currently the list I've published on my blog). With my release team hat on, I don't want to waste my time building and releasing unwanted core apps!
14:52:37 <cschalle> maybe the standard we should judge this by is 'Fedora WS is targetting developers and sysadmins as our primary target group, are the app discussed especially likely to be useful for this group?'
14:53:28 <cschalle> to which the answer in my head seems to be 'probably not'
14:53:30 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: But is "designed according to gnome standards and our approved solution for X" the same as "default installed" ?
14:53:49 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: Definitely not, that's why apps like Builder and Polari are absent
14:54:20 <cschalle> considering our target group Builder though seems like a more natural default app for FW
14:54:47 <cschalle> and probably even Polari considering IRCS still important role in open source development
14:54:49 <juhp_> cschalle: yes
14:54:50 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: And why eog and evince are going to be removed, even though they look like nice modern GNOME apps nowadays.
14:54:58 <juhp_> I use Polari
14:55:38 * otaylor uses polari to use up all his ram ;-)
14:55:41 <mcatanzaro> I use Polari and Builder too, but Builder only makes sense if you are a GNOME C/C++ developer, and Polari is also only useful to GNOME/Fedora hackers IMO. Most developers would have no need of these.
14:55:46 <juhp_> otaylor: hehe
14:56:12 <mcatanzaro> So I actually don't see much value in adding developer tools downstream
14:56:24 <cschalle> upstream GNOME does have a wider/different target than we do, so I think GNOME default == Fedora WS default is inherently wrong
14:56:31 <mcatanzaro> Wow, this discussion was a lot more expansive than I'd anticipated!
14:56:34 <otaylor> mcatanzaro: So your argument is that the core applications list is being curated upstream to specifically be a default-installed-applications list ?
14:57:34 <mcatanzaro> otaylor: Of course, that's exactly its purpose. And sometime last year we did approve automatically adding and removing default apps from Fedora as they are added and removed upstream; it was uncontroversial at the time.
14:57:48 <mcatanzaro> I think that was before we tracked tickets in pagure, though
14:58:35 <mcatanzaro> OK plot twist: searching for the old issue, I found https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/25#comment-457545
14:58:41 <mcatanzaro> What happened here
14:59:08 <mcatanzaro> kalev created a pull request to add todo and simple-scan, what happened to it...
14:59:08 <juhp_> personally I don't feel Fedora has to be in lock-step with upstream gnome defaults
14:59:22 <mcatanzaro> Merged into master
14:59:35 <juhp_> or Workstation specifically
15:00:01 <mcatanzaro> So, pagure takes forever to load comps (apparently due to syntax highlighting) and we are out of time
15:00:12 <mcatanzaro> But if I can convince you to stay for another minute or two while the page loads
15:00:19 <cschalle> mcatanzaro, well I honestly don't feel very strongly about the issue, to me the default app discussions feel a bit like a sideshow to the real mission of Fedora WS, which is in turn partly the reason I am now questioning why we are doing it, but on the flip side being a sideshow it is not something I would lose any sleep over 'losing'
15:00:56 <mcatanzaro> It looks like kalev already added simple-scan and todo six months ago. So either they got removed at some point after that, or I failed to check if they were already installed by default when creating this issue :)
15:01:04 <cschalle> hehe
15:02:24 <cschalle> ok, I think we are actually out of time. Lets defer this issue to next meeting
15:02:38 <cschalle> #endmeeting