famsco
LOGS
15:00:49 <robyduck> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2017-03-01
15:00:49 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar  1 15:00:49 2017 UTC.  The chair is robyduck. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:49 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:49 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco_2017-03-01'
15:00:55 <robyduck> #meetingname famsco
15:00:55 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
15:01:05 <robyduck> #topic Roll Call
15:01:12 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
15:01:13 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
15:02:42 <robyduck> #info mailga sent regrets
15:03:19 <robyduck> #chair jonatoni fredlima
15:03:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: fredlima jonatoni robyduck
15:03:34 <robyduck> I don't see anyone else around today
15:06:02 <jonatoni_> .hello jonatoni
15:06:05 <zodbot> jonatoni_: jonatoni 'Jona Azizaj' <jonaazizaj@gmail.com>
15:06:14 <robyduck> hi jonatoni_
15:06:25 <jonatoni_> Hi robyduck :)
15:06:45 <robyduck> seems like it's just you and me today
15:08:50 <robyduck> jonatoni_: do you have anything? Or should we just cancel?
15:09:12 <jonatoni_> Has someone written on the mailing list for their absence?  :/
15:10:11 <robyduck> jonatoni_: no, only mailga sent me a msg he was not able to come
15:10:29 <gnokii> wrong
15:10:43 <jonatoni_> robyduck: we can cancel if someone else will not show up :/ I don't know, it's up to you.
15:10:49 <robyduck> the only thing I see doable is a call for lazy consensus in the FAmSCo ML and IRC tickets and delay the rest in today's agenda to next week.
15:10:58 * itamarjp listenning
15:11:11 <robyduck> hi itamarjp
15:11:26 <robyduck> #chair itamarjp
15:11:26 <zodbot> Current chairs: fredlima itamarjp jonatoni robyduck
15:11:56 <jonatoni_> Giannis said that he will be late for the meeting, just saw his message
15:12:40 <robyduck> ok let's start with these
15:12:46 <robyduck> #topic Request to open FAmSCo ML
15:13:02 <robyduck> .famsco 419
15:13:02 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/419
15:13:19 <robyduck> I guess this will not work anymore :)
15:13:45 <robyduck> what do you think about opening our ML to all for subscription?
15:15:02 <robyduck> personally I see this as a dupplicate of the amabssadors ML, and people think they have to subsribe also to the famsco ML. But all of us are also in the ambassadors ist and things can be discussed there.
15:15:15 <robyduck> s/dupplicate/duplicate
15:15:55 <itamarjp> I agree, lets use ambassador ML.
15:15:55 <robyduck> jonatoni_: itamarjp ?
15:16:22 <fredlima> .fas fredlima
15:16:23 <zodbot> fredlima: fredlima 'Frederico Henrique Gonçalves Lima' <fred@fredericolima.com.br>
15:16:42 <jonatoni_> In fact you are right about this, if Ambassadors needs help from us or they are concerned about something we can use Ambassadors mailing list.
15:16:44 <robyduck> hi fredlima, so we have a quorum today
15:17:00 <robyduck> let's vote quickly on this
15:17:02 <fredlima> sorry for the delay
15:17:38 <robyduck> do you want to make FAmSCo ML public for subscription?
15:18:20 <fredlima> no
15:18:21 <robyduck> -1
15:18:29 <fredlima> -1
15:18:52 <jonatoni> -1
15:19:20 <robyduck> itamarjp:
15:19:26 <itamarjp> -1
15:19:34 <robyduck> ok thanks
15:20:08 <robyduck> #agreed FAmSCo ML will remain closed for subscription but publicly readable - topics can be discussed on the Ambassador's ML publicly
15:20:37 <robyduck> #topic Create a #fedora-famsco channel on IRC
15:20:41 <robyduck> Same here
15:20:51 <robyduck> .famsco 420
15:20:51 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/420
15:21:18 <jonatoni> same thing also for IRC
15:21:34 <robyduck> I have been 2 weeks in this channel, and we were 3 persons. While I can see some pros, I'm not sure people want to have another channel
15:22:21 <fredlima> it will be another empty chanel
15:22:40 <robyduck> I think the proposal comes from the fact we have a #fedora-council channel, but the council doesn't have other chanels where to discuss things
15:23:02 <jonatoni> I'm -1, I don't think we need a new IRC channel because all FAmSCo members are already at #fedora-ambassadors channel
15:23:55 <robyduck> ok then let's add our votes here
15:24:06 <robyduck> itamarjp: fredlima
15:24:07 <fredlima> -1
15:24:22 <jonatoni> -1
15:24:25 <itamarjp> -1 it will be another empty channel
15:24:39 <robyduck> I don't have a strong opinion on it, but even others were not convinced.
15:24:43 <robyduck> so -1
15:25:36 <robyduck> #agreed FAmSCo don't will use the #fedora-famsco channel. Topics can be discussed in the Ambassador channel where most people hang around and could read.
15:25:53 <gnokii> famsco is rassistic
15:26:38 <robyduck> gnokii: can you please keep your offenses without writing them in a meeting?
15:27:15 <robyduck> we have a CoC you should even know I'm sure you know it very well. Thanks
15:27:39 <robyduck> #topic Run the "Active Ambassadors" script
15:28:05 <robyduck> As you probably know we used to run a script over all ambassadors to check if they are still active.
15:28:50 <robyduck> the script gets all activities from fedmsg and we can see when people were active the last time on Fedora servers/MLs/whatever
15:29:04 <gnokii> who is the racist here and want to discuss everything in trac, which is bound to openid and brings very often a timeout, so WHO is violating then ME wrong the guy who just looks not from all sides to the thing
15:29:09 <robyduck> but.....ambassador's activity is not always measurable with a login
15:29:27 <fredlima> I totally agree with run this script, In Brazil we have 50+ ambassadors, almost only 15 active
15:29:55 <robyduck> so we run it and for those being inactive for more than 18 months we will send out an email to ask if they are still doing stuff. If we do not get any reply we will just set them as inactive.
15:30:07 <robyduck> so, that's the procedure
15:31:25 <robyduck> gnokii: please hold on, just stop.
15:31:55 <jonatoni> How often will we run this script? For example each 18 months?
15:32:00 <robyduck> the last time we run the script is more or less 2 years ago IIRC
15:32:30 <robyduck> jonatoni: the initial idea was to run it every 6 months or so
15:32:48 <robyduck> but there is not deadline or anything
15:32:56 <jonatoni> you are right, we need to do it more often
15:33:33 <robyduck> it's just: we want to identify inactive ambassadors as inactive, to avoid people who may contact an ambassador, writing to someone who doesn't care anymore
15:34:01 <giannisk> .fas giannisk
15:34:02 <zodbot> giannisk: giannisk 'Giannis Konstantinidis' <giannis@konstantinidis.cc>
15:34:05 <robyduck> it is NOT removing anyone from the FAS group
15:34:06 * giannisk waves at everyone
15:34:11 <robyduck> #chair giannisk
15:34:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: fredlima giannisk itamarjp jonatoni robyduck
15:34:17 <fredlima> hi giannisk
15:34:35 <robyduck> o/ giannisk
15:35:05 <itamarjp> can We do the same for mentors ?
15:35:27 <robyduck> so, do we want to run it now and reach out to the inactive ones by mail? Anyone volunteering?
15:35:42 <robyduck> itamarjp: we will
15:35:59 <jonatoni> I can help
15:36:05 <robyduck> cool
15:36:13 <fredlima> mentors are also ambassadors, need to run twice?
15:36:43 <fredlima> with just one shoot we kill 2 problems.
15:36:55 <robyduck> #agree FAmSCo will run the inactive ambassador script
15:37:02 <robyduck> fredlima: yes we do
15:37:48 <robyduck> #action jonatoni will reach out to inactive ambassadors and ask if they are still doing stuff before setting them as "inactive"
15:38:06 <fredlima> IMHO we should cron this script every 2 release cycles
15:38:09 <fredlima> 1 year
15:38:29 <robyduck> jonatoni: I will get you some inputs and the link to the script if you want
15:39:12 <robyduck> fredlima: it is done manually, but 1 year could be too long
15:39:23 <fredlima> but it's not automated so someone could run
15:39:32 <robyduck> you could have people inactive for 29 months then
15:39:36 <jonatoni> robyduck many thanks, I will ask you later about this.
15:39:46 <robyduck> jonatoni: sure
15:39:52 <robyduck> anything else on this?
15:39:53 <fredlima> robyduck: agreed
15:41:06 <robyduck> #topic Check mentor's state
15:41:13 <robyduck> .famsco 416
15:41:14 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/416
15:41:33 <robyduck> so this is related to reorganize the mentoring process
15:42:08 * robyduck moved the FAmA trac and its repo to pagure and told mentors about it already, cleaning up also most of the old tickets
15:42:23 * jwf waves
15:42:32 <robyduck> the whole FAmA question is another topic, even the mentoring process
15:42:36 <robyduck> hey jwf
15:43:13 <robyduck> what I proposed in the ticket, was just to reset all mentors on the wiki page to their real state
15:43:28 <robyduck> I noticed there are people in it which aren't even mentors!!
15:44:32 <robyduck> so, I would like to reach out to all mentors by mail (aren't that much) and ask them if they are still active, if they are unavailable temporalily, or if they even want to step back, even for a while
15:45:00 * robyduck thinks mentoring is rather time consuming and people cannot do it forever, they get burned out
15:45:28 <robyduck> after that we should ask Infra to make the "choose a mentor" page read only
15:45:45 <robyduck> does anyone have the link handy?
15:46:00 <itamarjp> my suggestion is to let interested people in becoming ambassador to file his own ticket
15:46:02 * giannisk is looking for the link.\
15:46:20 <robyduck> found it :)
15:46:21 <giannisk> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors_Join_choose_a_mentor
15:46:26 <giannisk> robyduck: hehe
15:46:29 <robyduck> yess, thanks
15:46:46 * giannisk can help with reaching out to existing mentors.
15:47:01 <robyduck> itamarjp: your suggestion is already about the process of nominating
15:47:54 <robyduck> giannisk: cool, want me to mark an action?
15:48:07 <giannisk> robyduck: sure, feel free :)
15:48:34 <robyduck> #action: gianisk will reach out to all mentors listed on the wiki to ask about their actual state of availability
15:49:11 <robyduck> giannisk: we should get a concrete answer from them, or what do you think?
15:49:34 <robyduck> like a multiple choice or so :)
15:49:56 <robyduck> so it would be quick and easy for them
15:49:58 <giannisk> robyduck: either a yes or a no I guess
15:50:32 <giannisk> i.e. whether they're available and wish to continue mentoring or not
15:50:46 <robyduck> active, active but currently unavailable, inactive (want to step back if we have a replacement for myself)
15:50:59 <robyduck> yeah, you got it
15:51:32 <jwf> ! (something for open floor, please ping me in case I miss it)
15:51:58 <robyduck> giannisk: not all listed are mentor...
15:52:49 <itamarjp> we should have a script to refresh that page.
15:52:50 <giannisk> robyduck: thanks for mnting, I can then double-check the list on FAS
15:52:55 <giannisk> s/mnting/noting
15:53:09 <robyduck> giannisk: sure think
15:53:17 <robyduck> we have just a few minutes, anything else on that?
15:54:53 <robyduck> #topic Open Floor
15:55:00 <robyduck> jwf: your turn
15:55:09 * jwf typing
15:56:44 <jwf> My concern was with ticket #419. While I can understand the logic behind #420 and not having an IRC channel presence, I do feel strongly that the FAmSCo mailing list be public and open to participation by the community. I understand the idea is to encourage communication on the general Ambassador mailing list, but I only see this as an effective solution if the FAmSCo mailing list is removed. North America doesn't have any FAmSCo representatives,
15:56:44 <jwf> so while other regions may benefit by having a FAmSCo member present during meetings, it has largely felt like a significant disconnect between FAmSCo and the Ambassador community (from my perspective). It would significantly help me to remain current and updated about FAmSCo activities by being on that mailing list, since there are things that are sent to that list. To me, not allowing that list to be open for participation feels like a block
15:56:45 <jwf> between the Ambassadors and FAmSCo. Requiring me or another Ambassador to manually check the list archives for updates, I feel, is not realistic and keeps some of us in the dark unless we actively remember to check.
15:56:59 <jwf> Apologies for the long message, but I *do* feel really passionate about that one topic
15:57:27 <jwf> I believe the best solution is to either only use the Ambassador list, or to make the FAmSCo list subscribable and open to participation.
15:57:28 <jwf> <eof>
15:58:25 <giannisk> !
15:58:39 <robyduck> go ahead giannisk, open floor
15:59:00 <giannisk> Thanks for your suggestion and effort, jwf
15:59:13 <robyduck> btw the FAmSCo ML is a rather silent one
15:59:43 <jwf> robyduck: I understand, but perhaps I still want to be on the list for things like minutes or other topics that may arise there (and have before).
16:00:06 <giannisk> I personally fail to see how opening the FAmSCo ML would significantly encourage participation. I mean, ambassadors are always feel free to share their thoughts on their own mailing list and they can also participate at FamSCo meeting and open ticket on Trac/Pagure.
16:00:23 <robyduck> jwf: minutes are sent to both lists, the only thing we can do is to write also the agenda to the ambassadors ML
16:01:07 <giannisk> I'm personally in favor of having a ML dedicated to FAmSCo members as that would increase the chances of effective communication between those members.
16:01:34 <robyduck> that's also how the FAmSCo ML was thought at the beginning
16:01:57 <jwf> giannisk: The meeting times aren't easily accessible for everyone – for example, this meeting begins at 7am on the US west coast, where we have a large portion of our Ambassador community. I'm also not going to manually remember to check tickets for new comments unless I have an email in my inbox about new activity – I think putting the weight on Ambassadors to have their own initiative to actively check and start a conversation is an unf
16:01:57 <jwf> air conclusion.
16:01:58 <giannisk> I'm however fine with having a dedicated FAmsCo ML (to be used internally, archives available to the public) and another FAmSCo ML open to the ambassadors.
16:02:25 <jwf> It's not about *encouraging* participation, per say, but about making communication and information sharing more possible.
16:02:47 <jwf> robyduck: For me, I would find value in having an email in my inbox about the schedule too, so I could possibly raise an input before the meeting to add context about something.
16:03:05 <robyduck> ok, we can do that
16:03:06 <giannisk> jfw: But the information (meeting logs, ML archives) is already out there, available to the ambassadors.
16:03:29 <fredlima> giannisk: agreed
16:03:52 <jwf> I think it's especially important to consider this given that the Ambassadors are a large, international community with people from different backgrounds, time zones, and culture. What is easy for some people is not easy for others to do. Not all Ambassadors have the same time as others, and this is why I strongly emphasize against an approach that is actively putting the requirement on the Ambassadors to be the conversation starter.
16:04:16 <gnokii> hear hear
16:04:18 <robyduck> we have run out of time for today, and we had this topic at first today
16:04:31 <jwf> I am really disappointed if #419 is closed as -1
16:04:43 <jwf> Without some sort of alternative plan of either closing the FAmSCo mailing list or opening it to the public
16:05:05 <jwf> It has the taste to me that FAmSCo doesn't value that input or participation, even if that's not what is intended.
16:05:14 <robyduck> jwf: if giannisk is also -1 we have 5 -1's on this
16:05:50 <giannisk> robyduck: It's a -5 currently. I'm willing however to explore alternative options.
16:05:51 <jwf> It may be -1, but I strongly, strongly emphasize for the ticket not just to be closed and to seriously consider an alternative solution that avoids putting the responsibility on Ambassadors to start conversations
16:06:41 <jwf> It will be saddening to me to see it closed without some kind of conclusion to solve this problem, because the only reason I filed these two tickets is because as an Ambassador, I have felt like FAmSCo simply isn't there, unless there is some big topic that someone starts on the list.
16:06:49 <robyduck> jwf: I have to add the negative opinion of FAmSCo, but we can (want to make one?) make a new plan about alternatives. Then please file a ticket.
16:07:07 <jwf> robyduck: Could we just keep #419 open to explore a new option?
16:07:26 <robyduck> also fine
16:07:36 <giannisk> +1 to keep #419 open
16:07:38 <jwf> I'm not sure what FAmSCo feels is best, but I would like for you all to explore this more, and I feel like I'd be filing a new ticket for the same thing, just with a "please discuss" context.
16:07:55 <gnokii> jwf you elected an famsco which dont discusses things and just makes fast decisions, so what you expect
16:08:01 <jonatoni> +1 to keep the ticket open
16:08:02 <robyduck> going to close for today, thansk to evryone for attending. See you next week.
16:08:13 <jwf> Thanks all.
16:08:17 <fredlima> thanks all
16:08:23 <robyduck> #endmeeting